Reliable Rachael and Reputation | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Reliable Rachael and Reputation

Jammers said:
What Rachael lacks is the IT factor that other skaters possess. She doesn't excite people when she skates. Perfect example is at the Nationals. Even though she won most everyone in the arena thought Mirai had won. Mirai had charisma and personality which came through. Rachael just doesn't have that quality. If only we could transfer some of Rachael's competitive nerves and toughness into Mirai then we would have an american lady that could win Worlds.
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Assuming you are right - is that the best and fairest way to judge a "sporting" event?

Watching SA last weekend, as Rachael began knocking off jump after jump I did pay more attention. When she finished I said, "good girl, I think you did enough to win this."

Watching Natls last season by the time Mirai went into her final spin I literally jumped off my chair and shouted "oh my God, you won Natls again Mirai!"

I haven't had that type of reaction since the last time Michelle won Worlds. Turns out I was wrong but no doubt Mirai at her best can be very charasmatic performer.
 
It ocurrs to me that the figure skating judges love a little dahling precocious teenage skater trying to be a Swan Queen. For some unknown reason, they are under orders to keep the Ladies Division for little girls. One has to turn to Ice Dance to find grown ups competing.

Rachael does not have the appeal of a Tara, an Ocksana, or even a little Michelle, and now she is up against another little girl, Kanako.

Since it appears there will be a huge tie for filling up the slots for the GPF, I think she is in danger of filling one of those slots.
 
You know, I really like this exhibition performance of Rachael's. (Thanks for the link Janetfan :) )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUP4sjFI4b0

She's heartfelt and elegant. Also, I love that costume of hers - (those are GREAT colors for Rachael and she should ditch the pink and fire engine red.)

I re-watched her Skate America LP just to confirm that I really did enjoy it and I did.

I've never thought Rachael's problem is musical interpretation or showing her emotions or that she's a boring skater who just jumps or that she doesn't have "it" ... She showed musicality from a very early age - as the links that Dorispulaski posted prove. I've watched those videos too and I was amazed at Rachael's polish at 12.

Rachael's problem is her lines. And it isn't just about flexibility. There is a reason that ballet dancers have to have long limbs and long necks and other attributes. As Mrs. P and others have pointed out, Rachael HAS taken ballet. Unfortunately, it isn't just about knowing how to do the movements. You have to look "right" doing them. Rachael has had back problems and her body apparently just didn't develop into a long-limbed, long-necked swan.

Oh, well. Luckily for her, figure skating is much more forgiving than ballet about that sort of thing. Rachael can jump like few other women skaters and she has musicality and determination. I think "team Rachael" has done a much better job this year of showing her off her strengths and minimizing her weaknesses. I think Janetfan may have a point that her reputation as a non-artistic skater may have held back her PCS at Skate America at least a little but hopefully Doris is right and that will change if she skates well in the final. (And gets another standing ovation :) )

Some of her spins still look awkward and that seems to be a weakness that is hard to mask under COP. Or is it? She has a fairly nice layback spin ... maybe some of the COP whizzes here can make suggestions about how Rachael can get points for spins and not force herself into bad positions...

Also, does anyone think Rachael seems faster this year or am I just imagining it? I thought she seemed like a much faster skater at SA and it made her look more commanding.
 
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Joesitz said:
It ocurrs to me that the figure skating judges love a little dahling precocious teenage skater trying to be a Swan Queen. For some unknown reason, they are under orders to keep the Ladies Division for little girls. One has to turn to Ice Dance to find grown ups competing.

Rachael does not have the appeal of a Tara, an Ocksana, or even a little Michelle, and now she is up against another little girl, Kanako.

Since it appears there will be a huge tie for filling up the slots for the GPF, I think she is in danger of filling one of those slots.
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Interesting post, Joesitz, it made me think...

And it makes me wish that the judges would think outside the box, not allow themselves such a narrow vision of what a ladies skater should be, this is not ballet after all, wherein the prima ballerina must be around 5'6" tall, thin, fey-like, with long legs/arms/neck.

Rather, this is Figure Skating, wherein sport comes first & foremost, which is why it is classified as an athletic event and therefore allowed a place in the Olympics. So instead of thinking like that book "Little Girls in Pretty Boxes" by Joan Ryan, it's time to become open-minded, and allow for a female skater champion that does not fit the *stereotypical* view of what a ladies skater should look like (aka a ballerina).

Rachael definitely has IT, as well as charisma/charm/personality, and she's one of those extremely rare skaters I can count on one hand that consistently manage to skate clean programs no matter the pressure of the event (Michelle Kwan was another). No, she doesn't have the stereotypical ballerina body, but she does have everything else in spades! What's more, she has her OWN style, her own special brand of appeal. She's A-W-E-S-O-M-E! Don't take my word for it, go see for yourself when she's skating in your neck of the woods. I guarantee you won't be disappointed. :)

By the way, Skate America was such a high for me (in particular Rachael Flatt & Daisuke Takahashi), even being sick as I was, that it's hard coming down. I seriously wish I could fly to each event Rachael is skating at to see her live once again because television honestly doesn't do her justice.

Until then, I will make do with watching her beautiful exhibition piece to "I Wanna Hold Your Hand". (:^)
 
P.S. Now that I think of it, Katarina Witt didn't fit the stereotypical ballerina preference. And the only one I would classify as being a "child" when she won was Tara Lipinski (she looked liked/acted like/skated like a child imho). Now Oksana Baiul might've been 16 yrs. old, but no way did she skate like a child, nor look like one when she was out on the ice. Same goes for Sarah Hughes. And Shizuka Arawkawa was definitely no child when she won, though she did fit the ballerina style, same as Sarah Hughes & Oksana Baiul & Yuna Kim, and I guess one could add Kristi Yamaguchi. But Katarina Witt, and of course my fav Dorothy Hamill, give me hope for Rachael! :) :clap:

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO RACHAEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :party:
 
mathman, are you manager of this forum?

Mathman said:
All off-topic posts have been removed from this thread.
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I thought Reputation is the important matter in this thead. :laugh:

when you think there is no Reputation Score. How this thread is possible. :laugh:
 
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janetfan said:
Mathman is one of the moderators here and I might add a very fair and patient person.
The topic here is about Rachael being reliable and her reputation regarding pcs.

It is not about starting a Japan vs Korea war. Your posts seem to be intentionally OT and apparently someone saw such little value in them they decided to remove them.

Keep it up and it will not go unnoticed.
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Again many times, I just posted
ㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡ
Yuna's pcs(LP) 09GPF(61), 10Olympic(71)
Miki's pcs(LP) 09GPF(61). 10Olympic(61)

Can anyone explain this by Reputation?
ㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡㅡ
this was to explain Reputation is not all of PCS.

So I added Federation Score that we all see at SC also then mathman started korean - japanese wars.

the one who started war was not me but Mathman. and I think he's overreacting. :laugh:
 
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dorispulaski said:
And I liked this LP at Skate America how much she seemed to be enjoying her routine! It so much easier to enjoy something when the performer seems to be enjoying it.

It just makes you Smile.
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Well said.

This is exactly what I look for in a show performance.

But competitively, is it enough? Well, Rachel was a case study here in that it's not, even with the jumps to back it up. You need to be calculating in your approach, or you will get hacked. Always.
 
Two other skaters that don't have the "line" and did just fine are Tonya Harding and Midori Ito. I mention them not just because of their jumps but because I always found them surprisingly musical. I remember in the 1994 Nationals how beautifully Harding completed each move (making her involvement in the fracas all the more tragic, because she had it without needing such manipulation). And Ito was tremendously musical. It was one of the things that gave her such appeal to me. Someone else who didn't have swanlike lines was Jayne Torvill. And she was part of one of the great musical skating couples of all times. In fact, she reminds me very strikingly of Rachael.

I always like to rebel against the idea that biology is destiny. Go, Rachael!
 
 
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personally for me in the free skate i thought kankao's pcs scores was too high and rachels pc's scores was too low.
i saw a spark and personality in the rachel skating than i did kanako's.
but i do think judges have been marking skaters according to old reputation and not noticing changes in skaters whether they have more personality-better skating technique , improved skating technique.
but most of all i think this whole grand prix series is rigged. the judges are going to put into postiton who they want to go and who the federatons wants up there.
cup of russia is interesting cause the top 4 girls can go depending on how they finish.

kanako kinda of skated juniorish in the free-for me anyway.
rachel can have it , but she might have to work, skate faster to get it.
the only thing i think kanako did was skate a bit faster than rachel.
rachel skated faster in my eyes at sa than she did at nhk and had more personaility in her skating than at nhk.
 
Doris - I agree with your post. However, Speed in the Quickstep and in the Tango are two different measurements. Tempo or Timing is the operative description of speed. What we want in Figure Skating (at least I do) is FLOW and in that, speed should be commensurate with tempo.
 
I respectfully don't understand your post, Doris. Kristi does not strike me at all as just a baby ballerina so I don't understand how it all started with her. The more I look back on those years the more I think Kristi's athleticism was underrated - just like Midori Ito's musicality and artistic abilities came to be underrated. Kristi had very difficult jumps for her era. No, she didn't have a triple axel like Midori and Tonya but Kristi pushed herself in the jumps department.
If anything, Kristi ushered in the "all around skater" era. Michelle Kwan perpetuated it. No, Michelle Kwan wasn't the absolute best jumper or best spinner but she was often the best all-around skater - seven-triple programs AND artistry, etc.
It wasn't Sasha who was impossible to beat at nationals but Michelle Kwan. And Michelle Kwan was not a baby ballerina, although she was most certainly graceful and if her lines weren't the absolute best they were very good and very honest.

Before Sasha, there was Oksana - who managed to beat Nancy Kerrigan's more technically difficult and more perfectly delivered LP at the 1994 Olympics. If anyone ushered it a "baby ballerina" era it was Oskana Baiul. However, I like to have a charitable view of Oksana and Sasha's contribution's to skating. They showed the importance of position and line and most especially dancing and performance. Nothing wrong with that. It is afterall a performance art. Or it should be. Probably Oskana - who did have a good lutz edge - may have progressed to become a true all around skater had it not been for early retirement and injuries.

As for these days - it's not the baby ballerinas who are winning out but the all-around skaters _ Yuna and Mao. They are both graceful skaters and the best jumpers out there. Yuna with possibly the most brilliant 3lutz-3 toe the world has ever seen and Mao with her triple axel.

(Also, as a former ballet dancer I have to grumpily defend body types like Sashas - or of all the ballet dancers out there. If Sasha doesn't have good core and upper body strength, then I don't know who does.)

To bring things back to Rachael - her record at nationals is as good as Sashas, when you think about it. So I'm not sure I agree that Kristi or Sasha - or the judgement of Sasha and Kristi - doomed the likes of Rachael when Rachael has two national silver medals and a gold.

Or maybe you mean that the U.S. ladies are not internationally competitive because they have been inspired to follow the Sasha path but again I find that puzzling. And in any case, the internatinal judges are sending mixed signals in that department. It dings people severely for underrotated jumps and wrong edges but also skaters like Laura can win bronze with three-triple programs. And even during the Sasha era - you didn't HAVE to be a baby ballerina. Look at Irina.
 
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Irina was not a US Lady. ;)

In the US, many, many little girls seemed to have been more inspired to be Sasha than Michelle. Why I don't know, since Michelle's path was the more successful of the two.

The attempt to emulate Sasha ruined the likes of Caroline Zhang (who spent her childhood being a tiny rotator and doing awesome spins without developing her skating. (Did she hurt her back? I think so, but am not sure.), and Rachael, in that Rachael ruined her back, Ye Bin Mok ruined her back, etc.'

Note this is not Sasha's fault at all. If anything, it is Peggy Fleming's and Dick Button's fault.

However, if Rachael is successful as a non-Sasha type skater, it will be all good. US kids will have another role model.

Kristi Yamaguchi BTW was what was termed a "whole package" skater-she had good music and choreo, a beautiful face and itty bitty jumps. She skated quite slow. She was no Harding, and no Ito (both of whom were dissed often in the US) She had a competitor's heart, though, and still does. In that sense, she was an athlete.

But what Rachael needs to do (other than rethink her final combo spin to take that funny catch foot out of it), is not pick music that suggests ballet.

Like Stephanie Rosenthal, I'd like to see her do something like Rockit or maybe the Chilean pan flute music that was used for the Duchesnays Missing. Something with a strong beat that doesn't suggest ballet.
 
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Layfan said:
If anything, Kristi ushered in the "all around skater" era. Michelle Kwan perpetuated it. No, Michelle Kwan wasn't the absolute best jumper or best spinner but she was often the best all-around skater - seven-triple programs AND artistry, etc.
It wasn't Sasha who was impossible to beat at nationals but Michelle Kwan. And Michelle Kwan was not a baby ballerina, although she was most certainly graceful and if her lines weren't the absolute best they were very good and very honest.

And even during the Sasha era - you didn't HAVE to be a baby ballerina. Look at Irina.
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There are many wonderful points in your post, Layfan, but I'll highlight these because it's a really important part of the concept of excellence. Honi Coles, one of history's greatest tap dancing specialists, once said about Fred Astaire that Astaire wasn't the best tap dancer ever but was the best all-around dancer ever. And would you rank any movie dancer (except maybe Gene Kelly, depending on your preference) above Astaire?

It's often how several factors work together that makes someone brilliant, not being the absolute best ever in each of the relevant areas. This shows that there are many possible paths to excellence, and not just one kind of splendor.

I always found it kind of endearing that Michelle was not so flexible (though she was far from stiff!). Her Ina Bauer was delivered practically standing straight up, for example. Yet she certainly excelled in all aspects of artistry. Though one wouldn't rank her at the top in things such as spirals (put Sasha there!), she'd be very near the top with that memorable COE spiral of hers. Moreover, when you combine that near-the-top spiral with the top-level edging and stroking and whatnot, the overall effect was one of great flow, sinuousness, and artistic power. Likewise, Kristi had a lovely airy quality to her skating, so although I wouldn't call it balletic, it certainly had artistry. While her jumps weren't the monster variety owned by Ito and Harding, they were athletic and complete. (Well, I think except for the salchow.)

By the way, I also agree with your point about Sasha's core strength. She wasn't the powerhouse that someone like Volchkova was, but dancers often look more fragile than they really are. Look at Suzanne Farrell, who seemed as though she could blow away on a milkweed blossom.
 
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Mathman said:
Still, Sasha herself wasn't exactly a 97-pound weakling. (Ninety-seven pounds, yes.}

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Sasha_Cohen_Spin_2009_SOI.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Sasha_Cohen's_non-skating_routine.jpg

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.unitedforpink.com/media/2007/10/sashajump.400a.jpg

http://midtownyoga.com/files/images/_medium_midtownyoga_39361.jpg

OK, you got me there. :)

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_v2zEq0iZp...American+Beauty+Figure+Skater+Sasha+Cohen.jpg
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I have to agree with mathman here and respectfully disagree with Doris and Joe for agreeing with her.

Please show me clips of Sasha under rotating her jumps - and I will play you back several clips of Button pointing out Sasha rarely UR'ed - and in fact her problem was at times from overrotating jumps.

Sasha is still the only USA Lady who ever attempted a quad in competition.

I am waiting for the day when Rachael - or any other USA Lady will be as "ripped" as Sasha was. It is ridiculous to compare the apparent condition and physique of the current USA girls to Sasha.

Frankly Doris, it feels equally ridiculous to compare their competitive records to Sasha as well.
What short memories some fans have.......:sheesh: :disapp:

I agree with layfan's post which is not only based on knowledge of Dance but also shows good historical perspective.

Any shortcomings of Rachael have nothing to do with Sasha. To say so shows extreme prejudice and can't be backed up with facts.
 
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dorispulaski said:
Irina was not a US Lady. ;)

In the US, many, many little girls seemed to have been more inspired to be Sasha than Michelle. Why I don't know, since Michelle's path was the more successful of the two.

The attempt to emulate Sasha ruined the likes of Caroline Zhang (who spent her childhood being a tiny rotator and doing awesome spins without developing her skating. (Did she hurt her back? I think so, but am not sure.), and Rachael, in that Rachael ruined her back, Ye Bin Mok ruined her back, etc.'

Note this is not Sasha's fault at all. If anything, it is Peggy Fleming's and Dick Button's fault.

However, if Rachael is successful as a non-Sasha type skater, it will be all good. US kids will have another role model.

Kristi Yamaguchi BTW was what was termed a "whole package" skater-she had good music and choreo, a beautiful face and itty bitty jumps. She skated quite slow. She was no Harding, and no Ito (both of whom were dissed often in the US) She had a competitor's heart, though, and still does. In that sense, she was an athlete.

But what Rachael needs to do (other than rethink her final combo spin to take that funny catch foot out of it), is not pick music that suggests ballet.

Like Stephanie Rosenthal, I'd like to see her do something like Rockit or maybe the Chilean pan flute music that was used for the Duchesnays Missing. Something with a strong beat that doesn't suggest ballet.
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The funny thing, though is that the one area where Sasha is not as flexible others is her back. Not that she has a stiff back but she can't do back bends like Mirai or Shizuka, for instance. So if Caroline and Rachael ruined their backs because they were trying to emulate Sasha, it's too bad because they got it wrong. Sasha's position's were exquisite not just because she was so flexible but because they were correct. Michelle's were correct too. That's part of why she was an exquisite skater.

I am one of those who is fine with the judges detracting for poor technique and poor basic skating. I'm not sure if Sasha's basic skating or technique was as atrocious as some make it out to be - certainly it wasn't as bad as Caroline's.
But anyway, I very much admire Rachael for working on her edge lutz so hard in in general trying to have the best technique she can.

Many people have made the point that young skaters these days immediately try to go for the most flexible positions and don't have the patience for proper skating technique. However, it seems these days the Michelle Kwan approach is winning out.

Rachael is so hard to beat in the U.S. partly because of her training style - doing full run throughs and building up her consistency. Isn't that what Michelle Kwan did? And Frank Carroll is apparently putting Mirai through a similar regime - fingers crossed that it will show results.

Probably you are right that Peggy and Button were so taken by Sasha that they often didn't point out her weaknesses. But they were the same with Michelle.

As for Kristi and her jumps, if the huge jumpers had won out, people would probably be griping that skating that become all about jumping and that stroking and artistry and whatever were being neglected. ;)

Arguments about which skater should serve as roll model often confuse me. People point out that Katarina Witt didn't have a baby ballerina body and isn't that great. On the other hand, Kat was hardly a power jumper and there are some who think she was overrated and that Midori should have won everything back then. And then there are others who lament the loss of figures and blame the emphasis on jumps and spins for that.

It's fun that skating allows for many different styles and sometimes one wins over the other - sometimes it's Miki and sometimes it's Akiko.

Better yet, sometimes it's Mao and Yuna - who come closest to having it all. :biggrin:

Yuna and Mao make these "ballerina v. power" arguments mute and I often go and watch their skating when these arguments give me a headache.:cool:

I don't think Rachael is the one who is going to bring balance to the universe the way Yuna and Mao have at times but she showing the power of being consistent and having reliable jumping technique - and that is an excellent contribution to the sport.
 
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