Repeated problems with Matrix blades

[jennyskate]

They're not on GS and I don't know their email addresses. They're skaters at my club whom I don't see often or know well, but I got talking to them in the dressing room one day when a group of us there were discussing blades.

What I do remember is that they both said the blades are designed for adult-size elite skaters doing a lot of quads in practice and wanting to reduce the impact on repeated hard landings. For skaters the weight of adult women doing mostly doubles, or learning jumps and still doing singles, the design makes for a wobbly, unsteady feel on landings. They both said the high price wasn't worth it for anyone lower than the very top level technically. Sharpening was also more expensive and many technicians didn't have the sharpening equipment to handle the design so they had to travel to another city to find someone who could do that, or remove the blades and ship them to be sharpened each time.

Spins had to be relearned from the beginning with a different technique. One managed to relearn up to a slow speed, but only a basic upright stance, no sit or camel spins, while the other gave up on them after a month of trying to spin at all. Catchfoot spins or spirals were pretty much impossible because of the design of the blades.

And then when they returned to what they called "real" blades, they had to spend time correcting their technique and relearning. That's all I can remember, but in general they thought they weren't worth the cost for the average competitor. The man they'd met who talked them into trying them had commercial sponsors and a lot of money to play around with and wasn't really a figure skater -- he was, I think they said, either a skateboarder or freestyle skier who loved to experiment with multiple revolution jumps on all sorts of equipment.

If I see either of them again at my club, I can ask for more details, but that was months ago. My pairs partner and I practise in two different rinks and either rent private ice or go at off-peak times, so we don't interact with many other skaters unless there's a club show in the works with rehearsals.

If you have extra money and the time to relearn to skate from the beginning with a different technique, and a new coach who can teach that, then go ahead and try. Age is catching up to me, but I was skating at triple jump level competitively and still land senior-level throws on a regular basis. I use MK Phantom blades, if you want one with a pick that assists jumps. I couldn't and wouldn't waste my own money on a Blade Science pair, but if you can afford to experiment, then good luck and do report back here with a review, not in the first flush of enthusiasm but after relearning basic skating and having had to have them sharpened several times.

That's interesting, I haven't heard anything like that, actually, the exact opposite. I reached out to eight skaters on Instagram who use the blades, and they all said it was easy to adapt. They felt improved glide and spins, softer landings, overall reduced pain after sessions, and better condition of long term injuries. This was consistent across all the skaters I contacted, some also said their take-offs felt better and they were jumping higher. I also asked about sharpening and they said there were no issues, and their technician sharpened the blades the same as their previous ones. Could you tell me which club and city the girls are from, and do you remember how long they used the blades?

 

[Diana Delafield]

That's interesting, I haven't heard anything like that, actually, the exact opposite. I reached out to eight skaters on Instagram who use the blades, and they all said it was easy to adapt. They felt improved glide and spins, softer landings, overall reduced pain after sessions, and better condition of long term injuries. This was consistent across all the skaters I contacted, some also said their take-offs felt better and they were jumping higher. I also asked about sharpening and they said there were no issues, and their technician sharpened the blades the same as their previous ones. Could you tell me which club and city the girls are from, and do you remember how long they used the blades?

These were adults who skate in a private sports club in Vancouver. That's all I know about them. You asked for personal reviews of people who'd used them and those are the only ones I've heard. Some others sitting in on this dressing-room conversation said they'd heard of those blades but weren't interested in trying them.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

That's interesting, I haven't heard anything like that, actually, the exact opposite. I reached out to eight skaters on Instagram who use the blades, and they all said it was easy to adapt. They felt improved glide and spins, softer landings, overall reduced pain after sessions, and better condition of long term injuries. This was consistent across all the skaters I contacted, some also said their take-offs felt better and they were jumping higher. I also asked about sharpening and they said there were no issues, and their technician sharpened the blades the same as their previous ones. Could you tell me which club and city the girls are from, and do you remember how long they used the blades?

If you are convinced and want to get these blades then get them. It is obvious you want them. There are going to be people on both sides with their opinions. Just know that there are people here who have said not to get them and know those who are not fans that have used them as well, even if you cannot speak to most of those people.

Good luck!

 

[jennyskate]

Thanks, I appreciate all the feedback. So far, the only feedback I can verify from actual users has been positive, and I can’t confirm the feedback from the two adults mentioned. I’ll reach out to Blade Science directly about the skaters in Vancouver and their experience to see if they can share any info.

 

[malinsk88]

I’ve been using blade science blades for almost two years now, and others in my club have them too. We see them quite a bit at competitions these days. Personally, I really like them, it was very easy to get used to them, they feel like regular blades but with softer landings that help my knees a lot. I chose the absorber stiffness for my weight, you should do the same.
The other girls here are also happy with theirs, and I haven’t had any issues with spins or sharpening. Everyone’s experience can be different, of course, but for me they’ve worked really well and I am happy I switched.

 

[Diana Delafield]

Thanks, I appreciate all the feedback. So far, the only feedback I can verify from actual users has been positive, and I can’t confirm the feedback from the two adults mentioned. I’ll reach out to Blade Science directly about the skaters in Vancouver and their experience to see if they can share any info.

Just a note if you did indeed contact the company -- the two sisters bought and used the blades in Europe before moving to Canada. They spoke with Germanic-type accents, so Germany? Austria? Switzerland? The Netherlands? I didn't think that was important enough to add.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Thanks, I appreciate all the feedback. So far, the only feedback I can verify from actual users has been positive, and I can’t confirm the feedback from the two adults mentioned. I’ll reach out to Blade Science directly about the skaters in Vancouver and their experience to see if they can share any info.

Well, I'm someone who actually used them and said upthread no. I've tested pretty much all or most blades and know what I'm doing. It's still a no from me. But if you want to try them that's up to you.

 

[Query]

Rather than emailing Jackson, you can sometimes get a faster response by calling them.

For most people, blades rarely if ever break. But I met a lady who repeatedly broke Paramount blades, doing split jumps - I assume she sometimes landed with her feet too far apart. Paramount blades have a somewhat similar construction to Matrix, but only use glue (no screws), last I knew. But you said nothing about doing split jumps.

Assuming your technique is reasonable - and at your level I imagine it is - and your weight isn't much heavier than the blades are designed for (I don't want to ask the obvious impolite question), and you aren't doing split jumps - I can't imagine any good reason for them to break. So, folks, how normal it for blades to break under the conditions the o.p. has? Is Jackson Ultima undergoing extreme quality control issues on Matrix blades, or is using really, really bad glue?

Incidentally, you don't by any chance sometimes leave your boots (and blades) in a car that gets really hot in the sun, do you? I don't know how vulnerable Matrix glues are to heat, but maybe they can't take it. (tstop4me or others - do you know?) If that is an issue, I could suggest taking them out, or ways to keep your car cooler.

 

[tstop4me]

Rather than emailing Jackson, you can sometimes get a faster response by calling them.

For most people, blades rarely if ever break. But I met a lady who repeatedly broke Paramount blades, doing split jumps - I assume she sometimes landed with her feet too far apart. Paramount blades have a somewhat similar construction to Matrix, but only use glue (no screws), last I knew. But you said nothing about doing split jumps.

Assuming your technique is reasonable - and at your level I imagine it is - and your weight isn't much heavier than the blades are designed for (I don't want to ask the obvious impolite question), and you aren't doing split jumps - I can't imagine any good reason for them to break. So, folks, how normal it for blades to break under the conditions the o.p. has? Is Jackson Ultima undergoing extreme quality control issues on Matrix blades, or is using really, really bad glue?

Incidentally, you don't by any chance sometimes leave your boots (and blades) in a car that gets really hot in the sun, do you? I don't know how vulnerable Matrix glues are to heat, but maybe they can't take it. (tstop4me or others - do you know?) If that is an issue, I could suggest taking them out, or ways to keep your car cooler.

I've never taken apart a Matrix blade. In your post above, and in your previous posts, you state that the runner is attached with both glue and screws. Have you directly confirmed this? I couldn't find any info specifically from Jackson Ultima. The Paramount video that shows comparison of blade construction from various manufacturers has a segment on a disassembled Matrix blade; there is no glue, just screws. That's also consistent with clicking sounds mentioned by Paramount and some skaters, including the OP:

- Clicking sounds and movement of the blade in the aluminum body while skating

If glue were used, I wouldn't expect this to be an issue, unless Jackson uses really lousy glue.

IceM above indicates that the runner can be simply removed if the screws are removed. That would indicate no glue. But they also state that they have not worn Matrix themselves.

I know you have direct experience with the original generation Matrix blades with interchangeable runners. What about the current generation of Matrix (other than the RXS), with non-interchangeable runners? Have you in fact disassembled one, or can you point to a source that confirms that the runner is indeed attached with both glue and screws? The Google AI response indicates this is so, but it cites no source references, and I suspect it mainly regurgitates your posts on this subject.

 

[Query]

I was told by a well respected skate tech that the modern Matrix blades use glue. But I have not independently confirmed it. He also told me that in his experience, they had fewer problems than Paramount blades. But I think he didn't like Paramount management, for complicated reasons.

Maybe Matrix glue is only in the screw threads, and the runners do not have threads, and the holes in the runners do not fit tightly?

Do Paramount blades click? Does it matter if blades click?

I briefly tried to search for other mentions of modern Matrix blades breaking, but only found one a week ago on another forum that might have been by the same person as jennyskate. There are well publicized reports of MK or JW blades breaking in high level competitions - but maybe that is because they are more popular in high level competitions (I think that is still true?), so they had more chances to break.

Realistically, it wouldn't be surprising if aluminum chassis blades like Matrix and Paramount were to break a little more often, since they are deliberately built light.

Regardless, if I were jennyskate, I would give up on buying new Matrix blades. Whatever the reasons, such a high breakage rate seems unacceptable, and I would worry that blade breakage could cause injury. Especially if it turned out that the Apex blades of the same nominal style are sufficiently similar that little technique change is needed. But it is up to jennyskate, not us. And jennyskate's coach might have some feelings on the matter as well.

 

[tstop4me]

Do Paramount blades click? Does it matter if blades click?

I've worn Paramounts for almost 10 yrs; no clicking. I've not come across any reports of them clicking either. With Matrix, the clicking has been attributed to a loose runner rattling within the chassis ... yes, that does matter.

 

[tstop4me]

Realistically, it wouldn't be surprising if aluminum chassis blades like Matrix and Paramount were to break a little more often, since they are deliberately built light.

This doesn't necessarily follow. It's a matter of proper choice of materials and proper engineering.

 

[jennyskate]

I still haven’t heard back from Jackson. I’ve contacted them several times now, and they’re not easy to get in touch with. I don’t expose my blades to extreme temperatures, I actually keep my skates in a locker at the rink. I don’t feel comfortable taking them apart or trying to fix them myself.

Several skaters in my club use Paramount blades, and they don’t click or break. I considered getting those next instead of Matrix, but in the end, I ordered the Blade Science blades. I’ll leave another comment here after I’ve skated on them for a couple of weeks.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I still haven’t heard back from Jackson. I’ve contacted them several times now, and they’re not easy to get in touch with. I don’t expose my blades to extreme temperatures, I actually keep my skates in a locker at the rink. I don’t feel comfortable taking them apart or trying to fix them myself.

Several skaters in my club use Paramount blades, and they don’t click or break. I considered getting those next instead of Matrix, but in the end, I ordered the Blade Science blades. I’ll leave another comment here after I’ve skated on them for a couple of weeks.

There's part of the issue. You really shouldn't leave your skates (boots/blades) in a locker at the rink. They are exposed to extreme things there. This is the reason you don't store them b/t sessions in your car trunk either. Figure skates are very sensitive things and if they aren't taken care of and stored correctly they are very susceptible to corrosion, rotting, rusting and many other things, especially if they cannot breathe.

 

[IceM]

I still haven’t heard back from Jackson. I’ve contacted them several times now, and they’re not easy to get in touch with. I don’t expose my blades to extreme temperatures, I actually keep my skates in a locker at the rink. I don’t feel comfortable taking them apart or trying to fix them myself.

Several skaters in my club use Paramount blades, and they don’t click or break. I considered getting those next instead of Matrix, but in the end, I ordered the Blade Science blades. I’ll leave another comment here after I’ve skated on them for a couple of weeks.

As mentioned above, you shouldn't really store your boots or blades in the lockers at the rink. You don't have to worry about stainless steel blades rusting like traditional carbon steel ones do, but even then, it's better to take your boots home and let them dry properly (insoles out, etc.).

I think it's great that you're trying something new, and I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the Blade Science blades! Out of curiosity, which profile did you order?

The only thing I'd be wary of is that the Blade Science blades also seem to be held together only by screws or pins. But I'm hoping the design is better and that you won’t run into the same problem as with the Matrix.

Still, a shout-out to good old genuine Gold Seals. They're definitely worth a try if you keep having problems with the runners on these newer, fancier blades.

 

[jennyskate]

I’m not sure what “extreme” conditions you’re referring to that are supposedly happening in the locker. Every rink and locker is different, and saying there are extreme conditions without knowing anything about the specific place can’t be accurate. The majority of skaters here, including coaches, have kept their skates in the locker for years without any issues. Our locker is dry, has airflow, and is specifically made for storing skates. My blades haven’t rusted, that’s not the problem. And by the way, Matrix blades are stainless with an aluminum chassis, so rust shouldn’t really be an issue anyway.

I take good care of my boots and blades, and I don’t think I’ve handled them in any way that could have caused the problems I’ve experienced.

By the way, I chose the Supreme profile, it’s what I’m used to.

 

[IceM]

By the way, I chose the Supreme profile, it’s what I’m used to.

Makes for a good comparison, then! But keep in mind that the profiles between manufacturers are never identical, so you won't actually get the exact profile you want. Manufacturers often hide that fact behind wording such as "Supreme-like", which is also the case with Blade Science.

How close it actually is to what you're used to remains to be seen. Just something to be aware of, when changing manufacturers.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I’m not sure what “extreme” conditions you’re referring to that are supposedly happening in the locker. Every rink and locker is different, and saying there are extreme conditions without knowing anything about the specific place can’t be accurate. The majority of skaters here, including coaches, have kept their skates in the locker for years without any issues. Our locker is dry, has airflow, and is specifically made for storing skates. My blades haven’t rusted, that’s not the problem. And by the way, Matrix blades are stainless with an aluminum chassis, so rust shouldn’t really be an issue anyway.

I take good care of my boots and blades, and I don’t think I’ve handled them in any way that could have caused the problems I’ve experienced.

By the way, I chose the Supreme profile, it’s what I’m used to.

Well, let's just say I've skated and worked all over the world and in and out of rinks so I think I would be pretty darned familiar with ice rink lockers and they aren't meant for LONG TERM storage, so if that's where you leave your skates when you go home and then come back get them and skate on them then back in locker, it's not good at all and IDC who else is doing it. I'm not the only one who mentioned or liked my post so if you want to keep doing it then so be it, but if the boots have issues or future blades...that's your decision. That is all we are saying. Now, I know what the materials for all blades out there are and I didn't say all materials rust. I mentioned many things that can happen to ANY material a blade is made from as well as boots.

 

[Query]

This doesn't necessarily follow. It's a matter of proper choice of materials and proper engineering.

I was told that aluminum racing bikes don't last very long. Partly because they are built light. (They ought to be. A lot of them cost more than some cars.) But also, that aluminum is more easily damaged by flexing than good steel, and that aluminum welds can be problematical, even if they are done in an inert gas atmosphere.

But I'm not an engineer. Perhaps that is all wrong.

 

[Query]

My blades haven’t rusted, that’s not the problem. And by the way, Matrix blades are stainless with an aluminum chassis, so rust shouldn’t really be an issue anyway.

Stainless rustproof isn't completely rust proof. I had some Matrix blades (440 alloy - possibly 440C) in a place that flooded. It destroyed them.

Even aluminum can be destroyed by exposure to salt water, or dirty water. I've had that problem with kayaks, roof rack bolts, and the bolts that held on truck caps. Some times the only answer I know of is to cut off the head, and/or drill out the bolt, use a tap and die kit, etc.

But those are pretty extreme conditions. If you dry out your stainless steel blades after use, it probably won't be a problem. Unless you skate on salt water, or natural ponds.

Unfortunately, most of the MK and JW blades that you are considering are not stainless steel. They should get more care. And, at least in my experience, they need to be sharpened more often (and will therefore have a shorter lifetime - though not, I would hope, as short as your Matrix blades are having) - as though some corrosion actually occurs while skating. But maybe there is a way to prevent that.

Anyway, your coach might be able to tell you how typical your issues with breakage are at your level.

Maybe it is worth doing the repairs others have mentioned on your Matrix blades - i.e., putting the screws back in, with a thread lock compound. That doesn't seem too much work. Won't fix the broken blades, but will deal with the most obvious parts. Also, if you glue in some padding between the runner and the slot it fits into, I think that will fix the "clicking". Mine fell out (this was on a prior generation of Matrix blades, that was designed to have replaceable and interchangeable runners, which I still use), but I didn't want to use glue.

Incidentally, modern Matrix RSX blades are also designed to have replaceable runners - though different styles aren't interchangeable, and the toe picks are fixed. (But RSX blades are remarkably expensive.)

I assume, based on your skills, that you skate a lot. Depending a lot on exactly how they are sharpened, blades should last through about 30 sharpenings. Even if you sharpen every 2 weeks, they would last about 60 weeks. If yours are only lasting 1/2 year, that is IMO unacceptable. But maybe that would be better, if you do those repairs.

I know it is impolite to ask your weight. But would you be willing to give it? I doubt you are all that heavy, considering the skills you are doing, but if you are unusually heavy - though remember that high level blades are also used by high level men, doing quad axels - that might explain breakage.