Russians furious over Olympic fix slur

[dorispulaski]

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/t/vide...=VaNnenj0BoH5HczhUgcfYA&bvm=bv.61190604,d.dmQ

Dick Button' s take- that Gaillhuaget of France, who is running for ISU head set this up-

Don't jump too fast. There is more than one way Didier could have done it. He certainly is in a fine place to create a fake paper trail.

It was not necessary to go directly to L'Equipe himself. He could have colluded with the Russian coach in the story. My understanding is that the journalist dislikes the French Fed. Even more fun then to use her as a cat's paw.

I do agree with Uncle Dick that USFS is too dumb to be allowed to be involved in any serious plan.

 

[Near]

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/t/vide...=VaNnenj0BoH5HczhUgcfYA&bvm=bv.61190604,d.dmQ

Dick Button' s take- that Gaillhuaget of France, who is running for ISU head set this up-

Don't jump too fast. There is more than one way Didier could have done it. He certainly is in a fine place to create a fake paper trail.

It was not necessary to go directly to L'Equipe himself. He could have colluded with the Russian coach in the story. My understanding is that the journalist dislikes the French Fed. Even more fun then to use her as a cat's paw.

I do agree with Uncle Dick that USFS is too dumb to be allowed to be involved in any serious plan.

So what he's saying is that its clearly Canada's fault. Chan, Virtue and Moir personally came up with the plan while discussing how to beat the Russians and the Americans or something like that - Joanie Rochette was probably used as a translator for the benefit of Gaillhuaget (nevermind that Chan speaks French).

The Canadian connection is all coming together now, it is clear evidence that it definitively wasn't the French or the Russians that started the rumours.

 

[Robeye]

What did Frank say?

Carroll also thinks that while wunderkind Lipnitskaia deservedly won the team free, the judges went a bit overboard with her program components scores, which include several 9's and 10's.

"There are things I like about that young lady's skating and things I don't like," he said. "I think she is absolutely wonderful at that age. I don't think she skates in between things (elements) like a total, mature skater.

"She was given some 10's for PCS, which is on par with [Patrick] Chan and everyone who has ever been. She's not there yet. I think she is excellent but not fabulous yet."

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2014/02/10/67619362/borscht-belts-shpilband-scoffs-at-collusion-talk




Frank may be a bit off with his factual details , but the striking thing is that he would say something like this in the middle of a competition. Usually these things are said well after, and almost always indirectly (that is, the critique is usually about the skater's "characteristics", never directly about their scores).

Although couched in a mild tone, the substance here could not be more pointed: Julia's PCS was wildly inflated. Frank not only openly refers to scoring, but he states very directly that there are things that he dislikes/are missing from Julia's skating. It is all astoundingly baldfaced and candid. In my view, someone like Frank doesn't do something like this without purpose.

The timing and directness of Frank's comments leads me to suspect that this is merely the tip of the iceberg, that there is a great deal of protest going on behind the official curtain. It's fairly easy to deduce who would have motive to push back vigorously: the US, Canada, Japan, Italy, Korea (the latter's fed is weak, but they may also have cards to play as the host of the next Winter Games. Italy is a medium skating power, but they are Speedy's compatriots; that might count for something ).

I am approaching this as not unlike the parsing of diplo-speak. Quite often, a party to a diplomatic dispute will drop 'unofficial' comments, frequently through a proxy, as a kind of public "shot across the bow".

It will be interesting to see if the overall judging approach changes in the individual events.

 

[WeakAnkles]

Thanks. I gave up reading icenetwork on a regular basis since they decided we needed to be kept abreast of every development in speed skating as well. Thanks but I'll pass.

Yes, Frank is usually old school and diplomatic, so for him to be so forthright in the middle of the Olympics is Saying Something Indeed. And it should be said. Judges have learned to manipulate PCS and they're manipulating it to the hilt. Given the sport's rocky reputation with the general public (is it any surprise that the allegations of a US/Russia deal spread like wildfire despite a s story with more holes than swiss cheese?), this may not be the wisest thing to do. I remember that Jenny Kirk once said on TSL that if the only GP slot you get is Cup of Russia, then it's time to get the message and unlace your skates. And this Olympics seems to be Cup of Russia Writ Large.

 

[Mathman]

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/t/vide...=VaNnenj0BoH5HczhUgcfYA&bvm=bv.61190604,d.dmQ

Dick Button says, the most honest judges are the Americans, Canadians, and Japanese. The U.S. officials are too naive and dumb to play the game, the Canadians won't listen to anyone else anyway, and the Japanese are too far away and speak Japanese.

The timing and directness of Frank's comments leads me to suspect that this is merely the tip of the iceberg, that there is a great deal of protest going on behind the official curtain.

I don't really think so. I think Frank Carroll has just gotten old and reached the point where, while remaining polite, he says what he thinks and doesn't care who likes it or doesn't like it.`

 

[Robeye]

Dick Button says, the most honest judges are the Americans, Canadians, and Japanese. The U.S. officials are too naive and dumb to play the game, the Canadians won't listen to anyone else anyway, and the Japanese are too far away and speak Japanese.



I don't really think so. I think Frank Carroll has just gotten old and reached the point where, while remaining polite, he says what he thinks and doesn't care who likes it or doesn't like it.`

Frank has a duty of care to his students, e.g. Gracie, not to say things that might hurt her standing and prospects. I am speculating and you might be right, but I just don't think that Frank would say these explosive things without being shielded by the views and support of US Skating, at a minimum, and possibly other countries as well. Otherwise, the risk would be too great.

If, as you suggest, Frank simply doesn't care anymore, then he would be what is known as a "loose cannon", and should hang it up. I don't think he's ready for shuffleboard quite yet.

 

[Mrs. P]

Frank has a duty of care to his students, e.g. Gracie, not to say things that might hurt her standing and prospects. I am speculating and you might be right, but I just don't think that Frank would say these explosive things without being shielded by the views and support of US Skating, at a minimum, and possibly other countries as well. Otherwise, the risk would be too great.

If, as you suggest, Frank simply doesn't care anymore, then he would be what is known as a "loose cannon", and should hang it up. I don't think he's ready for shuffleboard quite yet.

Frank has never hesitated to speak his mind especially when it concerns things that could affect this students. IIRC he tried to downplay the fact that Jeremy beat Evan, his student, at nationals in 2010. Basically in the realm that nationals was just another step toward peaking at the Olympics. Obviously we all know what happened.

 

[Robeye]

Frank has never hesitated to speak his mind especially when it concerns things that could affect this students. IIRC he tried to downplay the fact that Jeremy beat Evan, his student, at nationals in 2010. Basically in the realm that nationals was just another step toward peaking at the Olympics. Obviously we all know what happened.

Actually, I see this as reinforcement of my point. Frank is a canny political operator and knows how the game is played.

In the case you mentioned, it was all in the US Skating family, as it were, and Frank was lobbying for his boy. He knew the players, the limits, and where the bodies are buried. He was advocating for his student's interests.

In the current case, if Frank is making very controversial and possibly offensive comments about the host nation's top skater in the middle of the Games, without knowing that his Fed felt the same way, and strongly, then any fool can see that he is putting his student's interests in harm's way. (To go even further, if I were Frank, I would only say such things if I knew that the sentiments had overwhelming multinational support; in my view, it would still be too risky with only one's home country's support).

I don't think he would do that.

 

[karne]

I find it quite amusing that NO WE CAN'T SAY ANYTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT POOR LITTLE CANADA WE'RE SUCH VICTIMS OF HATE WE WOULD NEVER BE CORRUPT HOW DARE YOU ALL THE COUNTRIES SHOULD BE FRIENDLY AND NICE TO EACH OTHER...


...right before they join the dogpiling on Russia every time a Russian skater finishes somewhere they're not expected to be or scores higher than expected.

 

[millie]

she wasn't singled out nor her teammates
Julia also did the drug test as the rest of the team

With regards to these drug testing.....keep in mind that skaters are under enough stress already and they don't need to pee in a jar for a drug text! hours before a competition. Athletes have their pre-game routines and a doping interruption could wreck havoc with the wrong skaters psyche. After a competition, finish in the top five, give them a drug test, but not until then. Leave them alone so they can focus on their task at hand.

This is being managed by the Russian Olympic Committee. The IOC doesn't have a say into this testing. I would definitely be interested to find out if Russians are testing their own athletes in the same way as well as the Americans. 17 Canadians have been tested in Sochi to date.

 

[vegarin]

This is being managed by the Russian Olympic Committee. The IOC doesn't have a say into this testing. I would definitely be interested to find out if Russians are testing their own athletes in the same way as well as the Americans. 17 Canadians have been tested in Sochi to date.

This is more and more upsetting. Ugh. I can't believe it's a thing that happens.

 

[chuckm]

After the Team final, Julia Lipnitskaia was wakened from sleep and asked for a sample. It took her over an hour to provide the sample, and by that time it was well after midnight. EVERYONE is being tested, not just the Canadians, and it IS the IOC that is doing the sampling and testing.

 

[Mathman]

I just don't think that Frank would say these explosive things…

In the current case, if Frank is making very controversial and possibly offensive comments...

I guess I'm just not seeing the explosiveness, controversy. or offense. Carroll says that Lipnitskia is a wunderkind who deservedly won the the team free skate, but he thought some of the judges' component scores were too high. She has some work to do to move from the category "excellent" to "fabulous." I dare say he feels the same about his own girl, Gracie Gold.

 

[Robeye]

I guess I'm just not seeing the explosiveness, controversy. or offense. Carroll says that Lipnitskia is a wunderkind who deservedly won the the team free skate, but he thought some of the judges' component scores were too high. She has some work to do to move from the category "excellent" to "fabulous." I dare say he feels the same about his own girl, Gracie Gold.

In my experience, political evisceration is always done with a smile. I imagine that boardrooms, political debates and faculty meetings are very much alike in this respect.

When we cut through the preliminary soft-shoe, the essentials of Frank's message are:

-Julia is not yet mature, and her skating reflects this. To use skating board shorthand, this is saying that Julia is juniorish.

-The scoring is shoddy. She is getting points for qualities she doesn't actually have.

I can't remember the last time I heard a coach say this type of thing about one of the main rival skaters, in the middle of a competition (let alone the Olympics). I am actually somewhat surprised at how blase you are about it. I find the comments startling in the extreme. Certainly if I were on the receiving end, I would be incensed, especially from a losing coach with the Games not even over yet.

If Frank's views had no reasonable basis, such that there was no broad, multinational base of consensus for it, then he will have pissed off both the host country as well as the ISU and IOC, a position that no sane and experienced coach should want to put his skater in. In this case, however, my own personal view is that almost everyone of goodwill sees the reality of the situation. In fact, I am of the view that scoring (at least on a relative basis) will revert to something closer to normal in the individual events.

With regard to Gracie, I believe Frank would say that she fully deserved the level of score she received.

The difference in our views, it seems to me, is that you take his comments to be casual and avuncular. Given Frank's experience, the occasion, and the particulars of the situation, I believe no such thing. The man is a pro, and he would be remiss in his duty if he did not think through the purposes of his statements in this setting.

 

[karne]

After the Team final, Julia Lipnitskaia was wakened from sleep and asked for a sample. It took her over an hour to provide the sample, and by that time it was well after midnight. EVERYONE is being tested, not just the Canadians, and it IS the IOC that is doing the sampling and testing.

Actually WADA are in charge of doping - but that is a worldwide body and not Russian.

 

[Buttercup]

When you have a longtime insider like Frank Carroll break etiquette by publicly commenting on irregularities and excesses, and even pointing to specific instances (i.e. Julia's scores) while the competition is still ongoing, this to me is a sign that a backlash or push-back is probably already underway behind closed doors.

I would not be at all surprised if various federations are registering their strong displeasure to the ISU and IOC. We talk about the Russian politiking, but we seem to forget that there are other, powerful, interested parties, here.

That actually signifies nothing, since Carroll has long made critical comments about skaters competing against his pupils. Other than that, I am sure there's a lot going on behind the scenes that we are not privy to.

 

[Robeye]

That actually signifies nothing, since Carroll has long made critical comments about skaters competing against his pupils. Other than that, I am sure there's a lot going on behind the scenes that we are not privy to.

Allow me to repeat: being critical of rival skaters, and saying that they were undeserving of competition marks received, are horses of a different color. And the hues are even more different if such charges are made with the competition ongoing, and not after.

If you can show me an example of Frank, or any major coach, saying that a rival skater's performance didn't deserve the scores it got, with the Games still underway, I'll concede the point, however.

The last time I know of this happening, the consequences to skating were extreme. Granted, unlike at SLC, there is no outright accusation of cheating, here. But skating's Olympic history is, in my view, exactly why accusations that scores are wrong (for whatever reason) are generally not done in public. Beyond the risk of looking like a whiny sore loser, such statements have the potential to shake the public's already fragile belief in skating as competitive sport.

In many other sports, actually, an equivalent statement would draw severe punishment, including possible fines, suspensions, and the necessity of a coerced but profuse public apology if the offender expects to continue involvement in that sport.

This is why I find Frank Carroll's comments notable, not only in their content/timing, but also in the lack of any stern official reaction.

 

[Mathman]

I can't remember the last time I heard a coach say this type of thing about one of the main rival skaters, in the middle of a competition (let alone the Olympics). I am actually somewhat surprised at how blase you are about it. I find the comments startling in the extreme. Certainly if I were on the receiving end, I would be incensed, especially from a losing coach with the Games not even over yet.

I think the difference in our viewpoints boils down to this. You feel that Carroll's comments are something new; I think it's the same old Frank that we all know and love.

Last year when Patrick Chan won worlds over Frank's skater Denis Ten on the basis of undeservedly high PCS, Frank had plenty to say. You can here him say it in his video interview with The Skating Lesson (starts at about 7:15 of part I). He says that he concurs with the doubters and critics about the fairness of the judging of the long program and that they (the ISU judges) just can't keep giving such marks for badly skated programs -- not if we want fair and honest judging.

In 1980, when the Olympic judging panel for the Olympics was announced, seeming to be stacked in favor of the German-Austrian bloc. Frank hit the roof. He threatened to withdraw his skater, Linda Fratianne, from the competition on the basis that it would be impossible to get a fair shake against Anett Poetzsch. He eventually relented, but thirty years later he is still angrily wuz-robbing about it.

About his actual claims, (1) Julia is young, and (2) the scores in the team competition were inflated -- um...

 

[Robeye]

I think the difference in our viewpoints boils down to this. You feel that Carroll's comments are something new; I think it's the same old Frank that we all know and love.

Last year when Patrick Chan won worlds over Frank's skater Denis Ten on the basis of undeservedly high PCS, Frank had plenty to say. You can here him say it in his video interview with The Skating Lesson (starts at about 7:15 of part I). He says that he concurs with the doubters and critics about the fairness of the judging of the long program and that they (the ISU judges) just can't keep giving such marks for badly skated programs -- not if we want fair and honest judging.

In 1980, when the Olympic judging panel for the Olympics was announced, seeming to be stacked in favor of the German-Austrian bloc. Frank hit the roof. He threatened to withdraw his skater, Linda Fratianne, from the competition on the basis that it would be impossible to get a fair shake against Anett Poetzsch. He eventually relented, but thirty years later he is still angrily wuz-robbing about it.

About his actual claims, (1) Julia is young, and (2) the scores in the team competition were inflated -- um...

I'll certainly take a look at the TSL interview on Frank's views on Chan/Ten and get back to you.

I have no knowledge of what went on in 1980, but this was well before SLC, and therefore wasn't everyone wuz-robbing about everything? And wasn't everyone pretty much right?

Meanwhile, what do you think will happen with scoring in the individual events? The same, ah, "approach" as in teams? At least some reversion back to normal? I'm beginning to think that the German Bundesbank is the right body to regulate figure skating scoring standards.

 

[Mathman]

There is an interesting footnote to the Linda Fratianne story. Thanks in substantial part to Frank Carroll's rants, Fratianne came away feeling that she had been cheated out of what was rightfully hers by a cruel and hostile world. She bore the psychological burden of victimization for years and it colored her life after skating in negative ways.

In 1998, when Carroll's student Michelle Kwan likewise "won the silver," Frank was determined not to let Michelle go down the same path. He took her aside immediately after the competition and told her in no uncertain terms, "The judges did not cheat you out of anything. You lost because your performance did not have the fire that you are capable of bringing. You skated well. So did the other girl. It's a competition." Frank was adamant that Michelle not take away any bitterness and feeling sorry for herself.