My point exactly. Why the air gun and the winking among lots of other not-classical era foppishness? i thought it was pretty blatant gay-spoofing.
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Ryan Bradley NEEDS a New LP!
- Thread starter Nadine
- Start date
My point exactly. Why the air gun and the winking among lots of other not-classical era foppishness? i thought it was pretty blatant gay-spoofing.
This needs to be mentioned again. Seriously, folks. Are some of you really accusing Bradley of bashing gays in this FS? Forgive me for my lack of sensitivity, but I have never for a moment though he was doing anything of the sorts. Being over the top does not = trying gay bash.
Personally, I think Ryan, rightfully so, needs a program like this to play on his strenths. He reminds me of Akiko Suzuki in this regard --- not necessarily the strongest overall -- but her love of skating seem to charm many. But yeah unfortuantely it doesn't necessarily get high PCS from the Int'l judges.
But if he skates it clean, as Akiko has done with her programs last year (so sad to not see her at Worlds this year!), then I think he could break the top 10.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
You really believe Ryan's PCS in the LP was appropriately dinged?
SS = 7.32 (incl. three 7.75)
TR = 6.50 (as high as 7.5)
PE = 7.71(as high as 8.75)
CH = 7.39
IN = 7.75
Sorry Doris, I had to ask you to clarify on this statement because I am still having trouble seeing how Ryan ended up with these PCS which in my opinion, is the biggest controversy in the men's event, more so than Abbott not being picked for the World team or that Ryan's 1st Quad wasn't given < or <<.
So if you could please help me with these marks, I would appreciate your take given you were there in person.
Thanks
It's not the actual numbers. PCS at Nationals are always inflated. It's how much greater one skater's were than another's. PCS numbers are supposed to be absolutes, but they never are.
And at Europeans, Van Der Perren got 6.8's to 7.0's, so I think Ryan's are in line.
Neither Jeremy nor Adam impressed at this particular competition. If you want my opinion of the guy I would have given the huge PCS scores to, it would be Jason Brown.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5d4knHCWuY
Granted, he does not have 3A or 4T, but if we are discussing skating skills, transitions, choreography, and interpretation of music, Jason has them. And that is what PCS is based on.
Furthermore, I certainly was not getting Dornbush either-a nice, competent skate on a junior subject, sort of like Mroz doing Til Eulenspiegel in the SP was it last year or the year before. The Sherlock music makes my head ache. And his F/W was slow. I preferred Minor's very fluid skating (and by the way, he is one of those much better live than on TV, but the program was as low on transitions as Ryan's, so I would have given none of these guys Chantastic PCS scores, but Ryan's lower. There's a case to be made for Armin, but again, not a speed demon. Jeremy just gave up, and when you give up and don't skate your choreography, you don't deserve teh huge PCS, IMO. Plus this year's program is not as complex as last year's. So he deserves to be better than Ryan, but not that much, particularly as Ryan's performance value needs to be considered. Even skating badly, he still had the crowd on his side. And performance is also a PCS component.
This is quite true, both points. Ryan needs to land those 2 quads and 2 3A's, particularly the quads at Worlds.
Yes, when the program was originally discussed, he's playing Mozart as described by Salieri in the film Amadeus. As someone said on another thread here, Mozart was a huge, but very heterosexual, fop.
The extra hand gestures were due, I'm guessing, to what Ryan described when asked in the interview why he didn't give up after blowing the two quads, did he think he had lost-he said that actually he thought that he had better do something silly to make the crowd laugh so they maybe would forget that he missed the two quads.
This is typical Ryan--another case of that: when things are going badly, he gets sillier: (Liberty 2008 LP, the compressor broke, the east end of the rink had about 2 inches of water on it, and the music kept getting mixed up.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odMp1eFcRdc
I have no problem with having farce mixed with tragedy mixed with comedy. In Greek classical terms you could say that Ryan's stuff is somewhere between comedy and the satyr play: And I like to see a variety of programs. It would be boring as heck if all the skaters skated the same programs in the same style.
You are of course, free to hate one thing and like another. That's fandom.
And no way do I expect to see Ryan on the podium at Worlds. But top ten, yes, I think he can do that.
I'd love to see him finish up Wonka as an LP, but I have no idea if that would be better received in Japan than Mozart.
Sendups of Mozart are many and many:
http://themozartcafe.homestead.com/othergallery2.html
Note the picture of Bugs impersonating Mozart and check what Bugs is wearing. Ryan's costume is quite restrained in comparison.
Bugs also conducts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6o3R2RrzQY
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- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
This is true 
But it's another reason I like Ryan's program better than Dornbush's. I like the music
But it's another reason I like Ryan's program better than Dornbush's. I like the music
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2010
Ha ha, just like what I thought, though I didn't know there was such an interview. So his silly tricks worked. He got the audience on his side, and he got the US judges on his side too. Like Bradley's National silver medal performance a few years ago, the international judges won't be crazy about his silliness, and won't be easy to be tricked. Bradley's little clever calculation won't work outside of US. He'll get what he deserves which are high TES if he delivers, and low PCS. And he will probably lose a lot more GOEs than in US.
I like the music too.
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Well I don't like the music nor the program at all. :disagree:
But what I do like is Dorispulaski's breakdown of Ryan's base mark, et al. I was surpised that it was higher than Joubert's. Nevertheless, if both skated their present FSs clean, I would give it to Brian hands down on PCS because Brian's "Ode to Joy" is simply fantastic/a masterpiece, and that's the truth. :thumbsup:
Now that's what a senior men's program should look like ~ sophisticated, nuanced, flowing, magestic, confident, beautiful...
I vote for Ryan going with the "Willy Wonka" program. The main reason why I state this is because I was surprised to find out that he's the one that created the "Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy" program, and that turned out to be a masterpiece for him! Therefore, I trust his instincts to know what works for him. :agree:
GOOOOOOOOOOOOOO RYAN BRADLEY!!!!!
But what I do like is Dorispulaski's breakdown of Ryan's base mark, et al. I was surpised that it was higher than Joubert's. Nevertheless, if both skated their present FSs clean, I would give it to Brian hands down on PCS because Brian's "Ode to Joy" is simply fantastic/a masterpiece, and that's the truth. :thumbsup:
Now that's what a senior men's program should look like ~ sophisticated, nuanced, flowing, magestic, confident, beautiful...
I vote for Ryan going with the "Willy Wonka" program. The main reason why I state this is because I was surprised to find out that he's the one that created the "Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy" program, and that turned out to be a masterpiece for him! Therefore, I trust his instincts to know what works for him. :agree:
GOOOOOOOOOOOOOO RYAN BRADLEY!!!!!
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2008
Ha, Thats a good trick if there is a skater with often edge calls or UR!
AT first I read Morozov's lighter works. And the sentence had a whole different meaning, lol!
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
I'm not crazy about gimmicky competitive skating. There are galas for that. However, I am aware that figure skating maybe the only sport that many fans follow so a little fun put in by a skater works in their favor.
The matter of Joubert v. Bradley is not really apropo because one was scored by home town judges, the other by international judges albeit I believe European judges. Not sure if an ISU event can limit the judging to a continent only.
Can European judges be used for 4CC? I dunno, just asking. It's an ISU event which normally employs the judges.
thumbs down for Bradley's LP
I agree with the comments that Bradley's LP needs to go. I don't think I've ever been offended by a program... it is one long boring gay joke; it has nothing to do with Mozart. I did not feel that way last year when there was less mincing and prancing. It is too bad he had to resort to this. I don't think it was the winning program.
I agree with the comments that Bradley's LP needs to go. I don't think I've ever been offended by a program... it is one long boring gay joke; it has nothing to do with Mozart. I did not feel that way last year when there was less mincing and prancing. It is too bad he had to resort to this. I don't think it was the winning program.
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2010
Bradley's instinct? I don't know about that. At first, I thought so too. I thought that with Bradley's talent on comics, he must have known right away what works for him. But his Improv Ice performances, I think, were one of the worst, driest, and plainest of all.
I've never thought that Bradley's this LP has had anything to do with gay and offensive on that level.
Looks like Bradley has to change it. He's been striken from both sides.
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- Joined
- Jun 27, 2003
Thank God he's not, or Ryan would be really boring!
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2010
Jim Carey is over-the-top boring. I agree. But Bradley's this LP is not much behind.
I can be amused by Jim Carey. But after awhile, his performances would make me feel sick.
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- Joined
- Jun 27, 2003
Jim Carey is over-the-top boring. I agree. But Bradley's this LP is not much behind.
I can be amused by Jim Carey. But after awhile, his performances would make me feel sick.
touche
I can't get enough of the LP (though I prefer last year's to this years, for obvious reasons). I like Carey in a couple of films and that's it... when he's not just being stupid and he's actually acting, he's pretty good.
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2010
^^And "Mr.Beans" for that matter.
Too funny so that it's not funny any more.
Too funny so that it's not funny any more.- Joined
- Nov 7, 2007
^^And "Mr.Beans" for that matter.
Mr. Bean is but a mere shadow next to the bit of comedic genius that is Blackadder, who I can never get tired of watching. It's a pity that Rowan Atkinson is much more well known for Mr. Bean than Edmund Blackadder (at least in North America)!
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Ryan will be fine if he hits two quads and two triple Axels. The other stuff is just something to do while he is resting between jumps. If his tech is on he won't have to overdo the flourishes, plus his PCSs will be OK. Nothing like a couple of quads to get high component scores.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
ISU judges, including European judges, AFAIR, are used at 4CC's. However, Ryan will not be going to 4CC's.
As to whether his LP is a gay parody or Amadeus, here's what his ISU bio says:
http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00003278.htm
Music Free Skating / Free Dance as of season 2009/2010 Amadeus - Mozart Medley
I don't think international judges will be particularly kind to Ryan--I'm not predicting him to beat Joubert, either. If you recall, I said top ten.
But Mathman, Just so, I agree he won't be in any severe problems for keeping 2 spots if he lands both 3A and both 4ts--here's why:
Here's why:
When assessing Ryan's skating/skating skills, one should consider, that although his edges are not deep, and he skates with relatively few transitions:
He does 4t3t in the short. No US guy goes this. Van der Perren does, however.
He attempts 4t3t and 4t in the long, and has landed it from time to time. Likewise Van der Perren attempted this.
This year he has 3a3t and threw it in as an extra freebee in the LP. This year, he has his 3a back (missing a long time, and I do wonder if when the surgeon fixed his foot, he also fixed something that had been wrong a long time. Ryan says he has the xrays of an 80 yr old man. He had a great 3A as a junior, and then it went missing, although he had the quad. It's always puzzled me.) His landing it leaned forward more than I would like (sort of Stojko-ish), but consistently landing it.
He has 3S2t2t
He has 3Lz, not a flutz, and did it in the LP at Nationals. Tim Goebel flutzed. Ryan does the 3F in the SP because when he set the program up, he couldn't do 3Lz because the outside edge of his take off foot was the one that was still pinned togehter, and he couldn't stress it yet.
He has 3F, not a lip. Johnny Weir lipped. So do Brian Joubert, Tomas Verner, Pieter Liebers, and Florent Amodio (check out the Europeans LP results this year.
His 3Lo is perhaps his best jump, and it's a jump that has been the Nemesis of a number of skaters. Including Gachinski. He does it while waiting for the previous skater's score to come up, Along with a single axel.
He can tack a 3T on anything, and do one in the middle of a puddle on the ice. (Menshov struggles with the second jump in combination)
He doesn't underrotate stuff (cf. Schultheiss and Jeremy)
He can do an exhibition that people will pay to see. In Russia...at least according to Evgeni Plushenko:
He does not make pig faces in the KnC.
He can't do a 4S (or at least I've never seen him try one) Tim Goebel could do one.
And when he's on, the jumps are HUGE, which gets good GOE on jumps.
How long is it since we had a skater in the USA who can do all that?
Evan and Johnny never had a reliable 4T
Evan has a scratchy, rather nasty axel take off.
as a result, very often his planned 3a3t is a 3a2t.
Tim Goebel flutzed, and the height on his jumps was good, not great. He made it up by being very slender and so getting fast rotation.
Johnny Weir lipped and couldn't decent flow in a 3 jump combo and often left it out entirely.
Jeremy? Well, AFAIR he has never done 2 quads in a program, nor can he do a quad combo of any sort.
So let's look at Ryan's SP:
4t3t
3a
ccsp3
3f
ffsp3
slst2
cocsp4
Base value, as skated at US Nationals, 39.40; this is not "planned"; this is as executed.
Ryan's Base Value exceeds all but Amodio's & Brezina's total TES
As executed base values at Europeans:
Amodio's base is 36.10
Brezina's base is 35.90
Gachinski's base is 37.10, with a 4t3t, 3a, but he completely blew a spin, and does a loop for his extra jump.
van der Perren's base is 37.20, with a 4t3t and a 3a. It's lower than Ryan's because he does 3S and he got level 1 on a spin. Kevin got 33.96 total in PCS, a fair guess for what Ryan skating Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy will score at worlds, if he skates it as he did in Greensboro, which he very well may not do. However, I think Ryan would be underscored if he gets vdP's PCS scores. They are about the same in skating skills and transitions, but Ryan should crush Kevin in choreography and performance-won't happen, but that's how it should go, IMO.
So, anyhoo:
PCS guess 33.96
Base value of elements, with 0 GOE, 39.40
total score 73.36
If we give him van der Perren's GOE (and vdp had negative GOE's on 2 spins), then let's add
2.45
(Justified because Ryan's spins, while not creative, are decently quick and well centered, his straight line, while easy, is exciting, and his jumps were huge, if not entered from transitions. Somewhere in there he should get some positive GOE)
Total 75.81
So where would that have put him in the SP at Europeans?
In third place, but effectively tied with Brezina for second.
Probably skating in the second to last group for the LP, given that the 3 Japanese men and Patrick Chan will be in the first group with Brezina and Amodio--or Joubert or Verner, depending on how those guys do. Maybe 6th in the last group, but I doubt it, because USFSA will not be treating Ryan as the "anchor guy". They will be going with Dornbush, IMO, although for me he is the least of the 3 guys we are sending to Worlds. Stupid on their part, but there it is.
You will note that 3 Europeans can do, on their good days 4t3a in a short program: Brian, Gachinski, and van der Perren. On a really good day, Verner. And Menshov can do 4t2t, and two quads in the LP. Verner can do a 4T not in combination, and occasionally Fernandez does a stand alone 4T in the long. So does Schultheiss. If you don't think European judges, particularly Russians, will be touting the importance of quads in the SP and LP, think on. Likewise, Patrick Chan now does 4t in the SP and two quads in the LP. Canadians will also be pushing the importance of having a quad. A bellwether indicator of shifting winds is that a pretty good performance by Brezina in the LP only finished 10th there.
Now let's look at Ryan in the LP:
And here we have to do a best/worst case-does the Ryan of the practices show up, or the Ryan of last year's Nationals LP? or the Ryan of the Greensboro LP?
Again, let's look at his two base values, and let's give him a UR for the first of the 2 quads (it was marginal, and so gets 7.2 base rather than 4.1 for severely UR or 10.3 for fully rotatation), and bracket it with his base value, if he skates it as he did at practice:
84.80 (as at Practice)
78.64 (as at Nationals)
(as at nationals with the downgrade on the 4t, and the sequence penalty on the second 4t)
75.54 (obviously this is not an epic disaster, but drops him down..)
PCS of vanderPerren at Europeans
68.64
GOE of van der Perren (vdP skated an excellent LP)
5.13
So that leaves us with an estimate for Ryan of between 149 and 159 for the LP.
Coupled with 75.81 for the SP, I have him at a total score of between 225 and 234. Giving him a little benefit of the doubt on PCS, he medals at Europeans.
Amodio 226.86
Joubert 223.01
Verner 222.60
van der Perren 216.59 (Yes. Not Brezina, who didn't really skate that poorly in the LP)
If USFS takes a look at this analysis, and takes the lesson of the way Brezina dropped behind van der Perren at Europeans, they will push Ryan as their anchor guy. There's much more upside with Ryan than with Dornbush, who at best is a Brezina level kind of guy, and therefore at best is also top ten, at best. And if he flubs his SP, as at nationals, lower.
The quadless COP skater as a winner is in the process of becoming an endangered species again.
As to whether his LP is a gay parody or Amadeus, here's what his ISU bio says:
http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00003278.htm
Music Free Skating / Free Dance as of season 2009/2010 Amadeus - Mozart Medley
I don't think international judges will be particularly kind to Ryan--I'm not predicting him to beat Joubert, either. If you recall, I said top ten.
But Mathman, Just so, I agree he won't be in any severe problems for keeping 2 spots if he lands both 3A and both 4ts--here's why:
Here's why:
When assessing Ryan's skating/skating skills, one should consider, that although his edges are not deep, and he skates with relatively few transitions:
He does 4t3t in the short. No US guy goes this. Van der Perren does, however.
He attempts 4t3t and 4t in the long, and has landed it from time to time. Likewise Van der Perren attempted this.
This year he has 3a3t and threw it in as an extra freebee in the LP. This year, he has his 3a back (missing a long time, and I do wonder if when the surgeon fixed his foot, he also fixed something that had been wrong a long time. Ryan says he has the xrays of an 80 yr old man. He had a great 3A as a junior, and then it went missing, although he had the quad. It's always puzzled me.) His landing it leaned forward more than I would like (sort of Stojko-ish), but consistently landing it.
He has 3S2t2t
He has 3Lz, not a flutz, and did it in the LP at Nationals. Tim Goebel flutzed. Ryan does the 3F in the SP because when he set the program up, he couldn't do 3Lz because the outside edge of his take off foot was the one that was still pinned togehter, and he couldn't stress it yet.
He has 3F, not a lip. Johnny Weir lipped. So do Brian Joubert, Tomas Verner, Pieter Liebers, and Florent Amodio (check out the Europeans LP results this year.
His 3Lo is perhaps his best jump, and it's a jump that has been the Nemesis of a number of skaters. Including Gachinski. He does it while waiting for the previous skater's score to come up, Along with a single axel.
He can tack a 3T on anything, and do one in the middle of a puddle on the ice. (Menshov struggles with the second jump in combination)
He doesn't underrotate stuff (cf. Schultheiss and Jeremy)
He can do an exhibition that people will pay to see. In Russia...at least according to Evgeni Plushenko:
He does not make pig faces in the KnC.
He can't do a 4S (or at least I've never seen him try one) Tim Goebel could do one.
And when he's on, the jumps are HUGE, which gets good GOE on jumps.
How long is it since we had a skater in the USA who can do all that?
Evan and Johnny never had a reliable 4T
Evan has a scratchy, rather nasty axel take off.
as a result, very often his planned 3a3t is a 3a2t.
Tim Goebel flutzed, and the height on his jumps was good, not great. He made it up by being very slender and so getting fast rotation.
Johnny Weir lipped and couldn't decent flow in a 3 jump combo and often left it out entirely.
Jeremy? Well, AFAIR he has never done 2 quads in a program, nor can he do a quad combo of any sort.
So let's look at Ryan's SP:
4t3t
3a
ccsp3
3f
ffsp3
slst2
cocsp4
Base value, as skated at US Nationals, 39.40; this is not "planned"; this is as executed.
Ryan's Base Value exceeds all but Amodio's & Brezina's total TES
As executed base values at Europeans:
Amodio's base is 36.10
Brezina's base is 35.90
Gachinski's base is 37.10, with a 4t3t, 3a, but he completely blew a spin, and does a loop for his extra jump.
van der Perren's base is 37.20, with a 4t3t and a 3a. It's lower than Ryan's because he does 3S and he got level 1 on a spin. Kevin got 33.96 total in PCS, a fair guess for what Ryan skating Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy will score at worlds, if he skates it as he did in Greensboro, which he very well may not do. However, I think Ryan would be underscored if he gets vdP's PCS scores. They are about the same in skating skills and transitions, but Ryan should crush Kevin in choreography and performance-won't happen, but that's how it should go, IMO.
So, anyhoo:
PCS guess 33.96
Base value of elements, with 0 GOE, 39.40
total score 73.36
If we give him van der Perren's GOE (and vdp had negative GOE's on 2 spins), then let's add
2.45
(Justified because Ryan's spins, while not creative, are decently quick and well centered, his straight line, while easy, is exciting, and his jumps were huge, if not entered from transitions. Somewhere in there he should get some positive GOE)
Total 75.81
So where would that have put him in the SP at Europeans?
In third place, but effectively tied with Brezina for second.
Probably skating in the second to last group for the LP, given that the 3 Japanese men and Patrick Chan will be in the first group with Brezina and Amodio--or Joubert or Verner, depending on how those guys do. Maybe 6th in the last group, but I doubt it, because USFSA will not be treating Ryan as the "anchor guy". They will be going with Dornbush, IMO, although for me he is the least of the 3 guys we are sending to Worlds. Stupid on their part, but there it is.
You will note that 3 Europeans can do, on their good days 4t3a in a short program: Brian, Gachinski, and van der Perren. On a really good day, Verner. And Menshov can do 4t2t, and two quads in the LP. Verner can do a 4T not in combination, and occasionally Fernandez does a stand alone 4T in the long. So does Schultheiss. If you don't think European judges, particularly Russians, will be touting the importance of quads in the SP and LP, think on. Likewise, Patrick Chan now does 4t in the SP and two quads in the LP. Canadians will also be pushing the importance of having a quad. A bellwether indicator of shifting winds is that a pretty good performance by Brezina in the LP only finished 10th there.
Now let's look at Ryan in the LP:
And here we have to do a best/worst case-does the Ryan of the practices show up, or the Ryan of last year's Nationals LP? or the Ryan of the Greensboro LP?
Again, let's look at his two base values, and let's give him a UR for the first of the 2 quads (it was marginal, and so gets 7.2 base rather than 4.1 for severely UR or 10.3 for fully rotatation), and bracket it with his base value, if he skates it as he did at practice:
84.80 (as at Practice)
78.64 (as at Nationals)
(as at nationals with the downgrade on the 4t, and the sequence penalty on the second 4t)
75.54 (obviously this is not an epic disaster, but drops him down..)
PCS of vanderPerren at Europeans
68.64
GOE of van der Perren (vdP skated an excellent LP)
5.13
So that leaves us with an estimate for Ryan of between 149 and 159 for the LP.
Coupled with 75.81 for the SP, I have him at a total score of between 225 and 234. Giving him a little benefit of the doubt on PCS, he medals at Europeans.
Amodio 226.86
Joubert 223.01
Verner 222.60
van der Perren 216.59 (Yes. Not Brezina, who didn't really skate that poorly in the LP)
If USFS takes a look at this analysis, and takes the lesson of the way Brezina dropped behind van der Perren at Europeans, they will push Ryan as their anchor guy. There's much more upside with Ryan than with Dornbush, who at best is a Brezina level kind of guy, and therefore at best is also top ten, at best. And if he flubs his SP, as at nationals, lower.
The quadless COP skater as a winner is in the process of becoming an endangered species again.
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- Joined
- Mar 14, 2006
And don't forget, Ryan has one of the best butt-spins. (OK, OK: "A-frame.")
amazing post, Dorispulaski (actually one of many...)!!!! thanks for that detailed breakdown.
It seems to me that Bradley should just plan to bring it - keep this LP (not like there is a terrible amount of choice, but sidenote: as much as I agree with Joesitz general sentiment here, I feel this program suits Bradley) and just max out his amazing jumps and see where the points end up. On a personal note, I just hope for him that he can skate this clean and really have fun, like a crowning moment (with or without medals, with or without spots for next year). And, although i knew he was a great jumper, it wasn't until this last post by Dorispulaski that I appreciated just how good a jumper (so thanks once again).
It seems to me that Bradley should just plan to bring it - keep this LP (not like there is a terrible amount of choice, but sidenote: as much as I agree with Joesitz general sentiment here, I feel this program suits Bradley) and just max out his amazing jumps and see where the points end up. On a personal note, I just hope for him that he can skate this clean and really have fun, like a crowning moment (with or without medals, with or without spots for next year). And, although i knew he was a great jumper, it wasn't until this last post by Dorispulaski that I appreciated just how good a jumper (so thanks once again).
