Sasha injured

[Mathman]

Alisa Czisny (sp.) had me excited about FS after watching her at Campbell's and it had NOTHING to do with the jumps...well, OK the hinged boot has me hopeful.

That is an interesting case in point. The reason that skaters don't use hinged boots is that they can't jump as well in them. So this is a big decision for Alissa, who has gorgeous everything else but inconsistent jumps.

There was an interview a while back with the Spiteri family (who make SPTeri boots) on this issue. Their opinion was that it not the hinged design per se that cuts down on hip injuries (substituting ankle injuries instead), but rather simply the softness of the boot. In this view you could get the same effect just by using leather that is not so stiff.

However, the skaters don't want soft boots because they can't jump as well.

To me, the only way to resolve it is for the ISU and the National Federations to enforce some kind of uniform equipment standards.

The whole issue reminds me of when they started making hockey players wear helmets. When it was voluntary, no hockey player would be caught dead in a helmet -- that was sissy. The prevaling attitude was, any old hockey player can have his teeth knocked out, but you're not a real man until you are paralyzed by having a closed head injury or fractured skull.

MM

 

[R.D.]

Take artistry. Kwan was considered to be THE artist. Then came Sasha who many consider now to be THE artist.

Personally, I think Kwan is more of an "artist" than Cohen is, but I think you're right- I haven't seen Kwan do an emotionally compelling program since 2003. Cohen is (or was?) just the one with so-called "pretty positions".

But all these questions lead me to ask this. What IS figure skating all about? Is it the artistry part of it? The jumps? The athleticism? What is it? I hear a lot of hardcore skating fans talking about the artistic element of it, and others talking about the technical aspect. So what is the ideal skater like in this case?

 

[hockeyfan228]

So what is the ideal skater like in this case?

I think Arakawa, at her best, is the perfect balance between the technical and the presentation side, when technical=elements plus skating skills. When she's on, she doesn't have a weakness: jumps, spins, spirals, footwork, speed, edges, and stroking. There aren't more that a couple of skaters that can surpass her best in any of those elements, and those who can don't have her other strengths. I tend to like more subdued presentation over Show Time, and her distance doesn't bother me.

 

[Mathman]

To me, at the end of the day I want to feel the emotion. I can't remember Michelle's jump card in East of Eden in 1998, but, oh my goodness, that spiral sequence in the middle where she went from a change-edge forward to a back spiral, ending with a little curlicue, all on the same same foot -- then the split falling leaf to a change-edge spread eagle right on the crescendo, right in that suspended space of air before the BOOM of the next downbeat --- NOW THAT'S FIGURE SKATING.

But then, too, there is nothing wrong with Aranjuez at 2003 nationals -- a sparer and more powerful style, with one exquisitely executed feat of athleticism after another, until -- just when we think our hearts can't hold any more -- here comes that astonishing footwork sequence that leaves us gasping for breath, laughing and crying at the same time.

(That's what Christmas is all about, Charlie Brown.)

MM

 

[Bijoux]

Mathman and others

http://www.usfigureskating.org/

Very sad is this state of affairs instigated by CoP.

Read the article about the list of skaters injured and what they have to say about CoP. As your fave can tell you, MK, it is tougher than the 6.0 system that carried her to the top with only 3/2's. A very good point made by journalist and P. Hill.

 

[Bijoux]

Actually, I blame Sandra Bezic, Marie Reigne Le Gougne, Speedy, and Scott Hamilton for this new system. If the cheaters hadn't cheated, and if the media hadn't whined, maybe the proposal of the Australian federation, which was to improve 6.0 and make judges accountable would be the system currently in place, instead of this one, which I don't think solved the hanky panky problem one bit.

Some good points, Love. Nothing will solve the hanky panky ever due to the plea used of "subjectivity regarding artistry."

 

[mzheng]

[QOUTE]Originally Posted by thisthingcalledlove
Actually, I blame Sandra Bezic, Marie Reigne Le Gougne, Speedy, and Scott Hamilton for this new system. If the cheaters hadn't cheated, and if the media hadn't whined, maybe the proposal of the Australian federation, which was to improve 6.0 and make judges accountable would be the system currently in place, instead of this one, which I don't think solved the hanky panky problem one bit.
[/QOUTE]
What improved system that Australian Federation proposed? Can you sumarise?

 

[soogar]

That is an interesting case in point. The reason that skaters don't use hinged boots is that they can't jump as well in them. So this is a big decision for Alissa, who has gorgeous everything else but inconsistent jumps.

There was an interview a while back with the Spiteri family (who make SPTeri boots) on this issue. Their opinion was that it not the hinged design per se that cuts down on hip injuries (substituting ankle injuries instead), but rather simply the softness of the boot. In this view you could get the same effect just by using leather that is not so stiff.

However, the skaters don't want soft boots because they can't jump as well.


MM

I just want to address this. Skaters (mostly skaters' parents) don't want soft boots because that means that they break down faster and have to be replaced more often. Usually the kids are the ones in the super stiff boots. Top level skaters use softer boots (Graf Edmonton Specials aren't stiff at all, Michelle uses SP Teri stock boots which are stiffer than the Grafs, but not as stiff as customs can be, Miki also uses soft leather as well etc).

As for not jumping well in the hinges, there are skaters using hinges at my rink and I had the good fortune to check them out up close. They are a very stiff boot which provide a lot of lateral stability (therefore they last longer in theory) however the hinge allows for the ankle to bend which prevent the stress fractures that have a tendency to occur above the boot during the break in period. The hinges don't affect the jumps once the skater gets used to them. The reason Alyssa has problems on jumps is that she's inconsistent. She can wear any boot and she'll have trouble.

As for my thoughts on COP, I think it's one of the best things for skating. For one thing, it gives more of an opportunity for skaters from small federations to move up because they don't have to be confined to predetermined places under the 6.0 system. As for it being harder on the skater's body: it's not the system that is creating the injuries, it's the other skaters pushing their difficulty to the max that forces other skaters to get with the program.

 

[Tonichelle]

[QOUTE]Originally Posted by thisthingcalledlove
Actually, I blame Sandra Bezic, Marie Reigne Le Gougne, Speedy, and Scott Hamilton for this new system. If the cheaters hadn't cheated, and if the media hadn't whined, maybe the proposal of the Australian federation, which was to improve 6.0 and make judges accountable would be the system currently in place, instead of this one, which I don't think solved the hanky panky problem one bit.
[/QOUTE]
What improved system that Australian Federation proposed? Can you sumarise?

thisthingcalledlove already explained the proposal
"to improve 6.0 and make judges accountable would be the system currently in place, instead of this one[CoP]"

 

[hockeyfan228]

The assumption is that a 3/2/2 is harder than a 3/3, but has that been proven? The height, for one thing, to perform a 3T or 3Lo as a second jump, without destroying one's hip like Lipinski did, is greater than the height needed for a double. Wouldn't the force of landing a triple be greater than the force of landing a double?

The first spate of 3/3's occured in the 6.0 system, just after figures were eliminated. The most common theory for this is that skaters had more time to practice jumps, since they didn't have to spend the time mastering figures. There has been constant whining that the technical aspect of skating has gone down since Kwan "dumbed down" the sport with her well-rewarded presentation skills. But that never stopped Surya Bonaly, Irina Slutskaya, Joanie Rochette, Shizuka Arakawa, Miki Ando, and Carolina Kostner from attempting and landing 3/3's under 6.0, before CoP was implemented. The main difference between the two systems is that 3/3's under CoP must at least be rotated 2.75x to gain credit. But it also makes more sense for skaters to do a 3/2/2, if there's a chance a 3/3 will be downgraded.

 

[Mathman]

Just for the record, I think Michelle has done more triple-triples in competition than Irina, Joanne, Shizuka, Miki, Carolina or Tara. (Not sure about Surya.) Does anyone know for sure if this is right? All of those "dumbed down" programs that Michelle was winning world championships with featured 6 or 7 triples.

About the difficulty of a 3/3 versus a 3/2/2, a 3/3 is more highly rewarded under the CoP, so I assume the ISU must think it's harder.

MM

 

[kyla2]

Ant

That's exactly my point. They keep adding to the jump combinations expected. Under 6.0 you would have had 1 triple-triple, now they want 1 or 2, PLUS a triple-double-double. Tara is a prime example of a skater who sustained repeated impact to a joint. She practiced those triple loops-triple loops until she dropped and RUINED her hip in the process. This jump baloney is never ending and it is going to ruin these skaters joints. No if, ands or buts. The human body is simply not designed to sustain this kind of impact again and again for years. Sarah did triple-triples for a relatively short period of time and then left skating. You can't compare her experience to the average skater.

As for Michelle and Sasha, I really hope they find at least one CoP competition to compete in, or their chances of winning OGM or gold at Worlds are significantly less, both from the experience perspective and the judging bias we have come to "know and love."

 

[R.D.]

I don't know. I think there is some tally on Heather W's MK website or something that you can check out to make sure.

But I think this is a different Kwan than the Kwan that won all those medals < 2002. JMO. Her getting injured tells me she might not be able to do them any more- at least not without trouble. (I could be wrong...)

 

[CDMM1991]

About the difficulty of a 3/3 versus a 3/2/2, a 3/3 is more highly rewarded under the CoP, so I assume the ISU must think it's harder.

MM

Using thea nnalogy that a triple to Michelle would be a double to me, and a double to be Michelle would be like a single to me, I can understnad why this is true. A double double is much more difficult for me than a double single single.

 

[mzheng]

thisthingcalledlove already explained the proposal
"to improve 6.0 and make judges accountable would be the system currently in place, instead of this one[CoP]"

This sentance diddn't explained how improved 6.0 system to me. Does it?

The judges accoutable was there upto 2002 worlds, tha was after 2002 Olympics. It was not until 2003 season that they introduced secret judges (interim judge system) on top of 6.0 system. But the judge critiras staid same as before 2002.

Or was it somewhere already in this thread that I missed?

 

[hockeyfan228]

That's exactly my point. They keep adding to the jump combinations expected. Under 6.0 you would have had 1 triple-triple, now they want 1 or 2, PLUS a triple-double-double.

No one expects anything. There's a seven jump maximum, with a maximum of three combos or sequences, with a maximum of one of them having 3 jumps. There are ways to earn points without performing 3/3's or 3/2/2's: higher GOE, and higher levels in the spins, spirals, and footwork.

Kostner, Arakawa, Sokolova (who I forgot earlier), and Slutskaya all had multiple 3/3's in their programs before CoP. Arakawa and Kostner landed 3/3/2's in Dortmund under 6.0.

 

[soogar]

No one expects anything. There's a seven jump maximum, with a maximum of three combos or sequences, with a maximum of one of them having 3 jumps. There are ways to earn points without performing 3/3's or 3/2/2's: higher GOE, and higher levels in the spins, spirals, and footwork.
.

Well no one expects anything, but the skaters need to maximize their points. It would be foolish not to utilize all the allowed jumping passes and just focus on the other stuff because there are skaters like Irina and Buttle (as well as Shizuka if she can land the jumps) who will do everything to maximize their spins, footwork and spiral sequence AND will do the maximum jumping passes allowed. It's just like gymnastics or any other scored sport :competitors attempt the maximum difficulty (or lower difficulty and hope for high grade of execution) to score the most points.

 

[mzheng]

Since Plushin is mentioned in this thread. When is his first GP?

 

[Mathman]

His only scheduled event is Cup of Russia, November 24-27.

His name is listed as "new" on the ISU web site, BTW. That spot was held open ("to be announced") until he made up his mind whether he wanted to do it or not. This leaves him open to the slim possibility that he might accidentally make the GP final, even with only one event. Presumably he would then have to come up with a phantom injury to get out of the final.

That's the real reason why I know Michelle won't do Cup of China and Sasha won't do Eric Bompard. They might accidentally make the final (how greedy!), depriving some other deserving skater of an opportunity of a lifetime!

MM

 

[mzheng]

His only scheduled event is Cup of Russia, November 24-27.

His name is listed as "new" on the ISU web site, BTW. That spot was held open ("to be announced") until he made up his mind whether he wanted to do it or not. This leaves him open to the slim possibility that he might accidentally make the GP final, even with only one event. Presumably he would then have to come up with a phantom injury to get out of the final.

That's the real reason why I know Michelle won't do Cup of China and Sasha won't do Eric Bompard. They might accidentally make the final (how greedy!), depriving some other deserving skater of an opportunity of a lifetime!

MM

Don't know about Sasha, but Michelle is scheduled back to rink today. I'm not sure 15 days she will be ready to CoC. (believe or not CoC was in her plan, heard she may have other reasons needs to be in china.)

As for Plushin, not sure if his quad is back. Not some great news that I heard about him early on the season. That's why my question......I said before, and I say again I hope he recover fully and get that OGM, he deserves it. Though I prefer Lambiel skating more than him.