Sasha injured | Page 7 | Golden Skate

Sasha injured

bdreampixie said:
It seems to me that many are mistakenly believing that if a skater does a Bielmann it's an automatic L4. Not so. There are many ways to get L4 spins without ever doing a Bielmann, just have to be smart about it.

Yes. I know strictly by spec there should be more than one way to get L4 spin. It's just with the proven one (with Bielman in it and explicitly mentioned in Spec as a hard veriasion of position) it is harder for caller not to call it higher levels without case or arguments being made by the skaters and their coaches for those who trying to copy.
 
If a Biellmann is the only "feature" a skater adds to the spin, s/he will get level 2, not 4. There need to be other features as well for level 4, some of which are well proven (e.g., starting with the backspin on a change-of-foot spin), and some of which may be at the caller's discretion (a novel "difficult position"). It will also depend how many revolutions the skater holds each position and edge for.
 
antmanb said:
I totally agree with the impact triple jumps and quads and combinations have on a skaters body. What i absolutely don't understand is the blaming of CoP for it - i don't think the CoP has anything to do with the injuries and everything to do with skaters upping the ante in the sport just because they think they need the next big jump.

Pluschenko did the most difficult combinations in the worlds under 6.0 and that certainly wasn't CoP. He was trying the 4t/3T/3Lp for ages and all leading up to SLC. He also was (in the same program) doing the unfeasibly difficult 3A/half loop/3F which isn't worth doing now under CoP because a sequnce effectively gets a deduction. So that's a three jump combination with 4/3/3 and 3A/3F and both a solo 4T and solo 3A...i don't see his jump content getting any more dificult under CoP than under 6.0 and as long as he's doing this other skaters will try and follow suit...that's what sport does regardless of the judging system in place.

Ant
It's true enough, but who then is to blame? No system. Was Kirk the first to land a quad in competition?

There need to be limits and the CoP needs to reward QUALITY of the jumps over quantity. Bring figures back and chack the SP's.
 
Skating Injury Story on ABC Tomorrow

Did you know that there is going to be a report on figure skating injuries on ABC news tomorrow night? I will be at work but I hope you all watch it. When it makes national t.v., it's a major deal.
 
Now, I have a 2nd reason to be glad I didn't buy SA tickets. MK's withdrawl was the 1st reason and now SC's. Last reason is that our project got pushed out a week and I gotta work all day Saturday. So, at least now I don't have to think about finding someone to use 'my tickets' and I won't be missing the headliners because they won't be there too.

I hope they heal up good. Do you think there will be a stellar Kwan performance? last time she got forced off ice, we all got rewarded with her wonderful performance at 98 Nat's because she was so happy to be back on competitive ice.

I hope Sasha recovers too - it really could be her year.
 
kyla2 said:
Did you know that there is going to be a report on figure skating injuries on ABC news tomorrow night? I will be at work but I hope you all watch it. When it makes national t.v., it's a major deal.


Thanks for the notice on it. Here's the description for Friday's show. I'm gonna set my TiVO right now

Friday: With figure skating season opening, why are some of the very best skaters being forced off the ice? Plus, find out who's been named Person of the Week.
 
mzheng said:
If only judges applying rule correctly. And ISU specify more clearly and fairly. The way judges going every other girls is trying bieman. Looks like they and their coach don't see any other way to rack up points in spins.

I posted following questions in another board, got negative answers on both. (Looks to me it is suspeciouse that ISU has to explicitly put in CoP spec that Bielman position (no other difficult position is mentioned) is considered a difficult position veriasion in spin and spiral and as one of the critirias to get higher level. Which we know couple of Rusian skaters have been doing it for years) I'd like to know if someone here know more about it.

So far is there any spin called level 4 without bielman in it?
Is there any other difficult position in spin considered as a difficult veriasion besides bielman?

I remember reading the rules about the spins where the Biellmann is specifically mentioned and thought to myself that actually the "I" spin that Sasha does should be counted as a dificult variation as shoudl the "y" spin...i had thought to myself - well if Irina can do a Biellmann on her layback as a difficult variation then there should be nothing to stop Kwan doing a Y spin at the end of her layback to get the difficulty up, however, i think Kwan has to get into the Y position from a sitspin and wonder if she can somehow manage it at the end of her layback?

Ant
 
gkelly said:
Checking the men, since it's less likely that they'd be doing Biellmanns.

At Nebelhorn (long program), Noriyuki Kanzaki, Nicholas Young, Filip Stiller, and Hugh Yik were all credited with level 4 combination spins, and Stiller also had a level 4 change-foot upright spin.

At Karl Schaefer (long program), John Hamer had both level 4 combo spin and level 4 sit-change sit (which obviously did not include a Biellmann position).

At Japan Open, Jeffrey Buttle got level 4 for a combo spin without change of foot, a flying sit, and a plain sitspin (his final combo spin was only level 2 though).

I'm not surrpsied BUttle gets level 4s because he is a master at spinning under CoP - the way he gets level four is my spinning on every edge of the blade, and furthermore when he's on the "correct" (and by that i mean insdie edge on a front and outside edge on a back) edge he puts his body into a very difficult variation.

If you go on the USFS webpage and go to Skate America they have clips of the competitiors in practice including Joubert doing a combo spin - WOW! His spins have imrpoved no end - he's no longer wobbling and coming to a grinding halt on the "wrong" edges of his spins - he's spinning perfectly on every edge. What the men seem to be doing more than the women is sit spins on the wrong edge which to me seems the most difficult. The easiest is uproght backspin on an inside edge - beginners trying to get the backspin often end up on an inside edge rather than their outside edge, followed by the camel spins and finally the sitspins.

Ant
 
mzheng said:
Yes. I know strictly by spec there should be more than one way to get L4 spin. It's just with the proven one (with Bielman in it and explicitly mentioned in Spec as a hard veriasion of position) it is harder for caller not to call it higher levels without case or arguments being made by the skaters and their coaches for those who trying to copy.

I think that combo spins and flying spins are easier to get level 4 on because you can transition from position to position and edge to edge to rack up the criteria for level 4. The beast of a spin to rack up the point is a Layback because you can't do very much with it - you must remain in essentially an "upright" position because you are not allowed to change positions on that spin (in other words go down to sit or camel position) and there's no lady in the world who has ever (yet!) managed to spin on the outside edge on a layback so seemingly you box yourself into "having" to do a Biellmann in order to get to level 4.

I know there are other ways eg increaase speed one the spin has started move, transition from sideways leaning to traditional layback and vice versa, arms/body into difficult variations (but that's subject to the caller seeing it as a difficutl variation) but ultimately one sure fire criteria that counts towards achieving a certain level is the BIellmann.

Ant
 
antmanb said:
I know there are other ways eg increaase speed one the spin has started move, transition from sideways leaning to traditional layback and vice versa, arms/body into difficult variations (but that's subject to the caller seeing it as a difficutl variation) but ultimately one sure fire criteria that counts towards achieving a certain level is the BIellmann.

Ant
What about donut spin? Or the one like grab blade and lean back your body so that your head touch your blade? Both are upright(not sit) position. The former is a further veriation to side way lean, the later is back more back lean. If you are going to allow bieman position in spiral (where original specified something should be done without hand surport) they should allow those veriations in lay back as well.
 
10/20 Cohen Journal

http://www.sashacohen.com/journal.shtml

This does not warrant a new thread but it's just a tidbit on the "24 hours of insanity" after Campbell's.

I LOVE her comment when she says it's refreshing to answer different types of questions rather than the usual ones. If there's one thing I like about Cohen, it's her honesty. I find her remarks refreshing myself, rather than the typical comments a lot of other skaters give.
 
mzheng said:
What about donut spin? Or the one like grab blade and lean back your body so that your head touch your blade? Both are upright(not sit) position. The former is a further veriation to side way lean, the later is back more back lean. If you are going to allow bieman position in spiral (where original specified something should be done without hand surport) they should allow those veriations in lay back as well.

Technically the donut spin is a variation of the camel postiion rather than an upright so i don't think it counts, but the leaning back and pulling the blade to your head like both Irina and Sasha (amongst others) have done is ok.

Ant
 
Another thing that has changed in figure skating, especially since about the mid-'90s is the role of professional skating. I can't recall the exact year, but prior to sometime in the mid-'90s, Olympic eligible skaters were truly amateurs in that they could only make a certain amount of money performing their sport and they couldn't do endorsements. The big money came after you had won at least one World title and the OGM, at least for skaters in capitalist countries.

So most skaters would train like crazy for 4 to 6 years and then go join a touring ice show. Peggy Fleming did Ice Capades and also got to do TV specials. After their "Bolero" took the world by storm in '84, Torvill and Dean toured for several years as "Torvill and Dean and the Russian All-Stars," which was, I believe, the first time Soviet skaters could tour outside the USSR, though I don't know how much of their salary they got to keep and how much went to the then Soviet Federation.

Dorothy Hamill won her OGM in the Ice Capades era, as did Scott Hamilton and Roz Sumners her OSM. Sometime between '84 and '88, Scott Hamilton, frustrated with, "Is this it?" skating for Ice Capades founded Stars on Ice and what was eventually named Champions on Ice was also founded around the same time, though I'm not at sure about its history.

The point is, a pro career was the payoff for winning big during an intense but relatively short competitive career. Unless you won your first OGM at 16, such as Katerina Witt, or 16 and 20 for Gordeeva and Grinkov, respectively, the idea of going for two Olympics was not considered, with the exception of the "leap winter Olympics" of '92 and '94 so the IOC could alternate the winter and summer games every two years.

Therefore, Michelle and Irina and those who have come after them are the first generation of skaters to compete under the system in which the big money comes with competition instead of professional skating. Though skating with a pro tour can be grueling, especially SOI, you're not expected to do quads or 3/3s. If you're with COI, you do one 3-4 minute number during which even the marquee skaters may only do three triple jumps. Now, skaters such as Michelle, Irina, and Sasha for the ladies; Plush and Weir for the men; and various pairs teams do both in terms of COI. That is, the both compete and do COI. Only if you join SOI and are a US skater is your Olympic eligibility revoked. (That's a different thread.)

Anyway, people are talking about no places to rest during an LP. How about no places to rest for the top skaters during the year? When a skater is climbing the ladder, s/he/they may do the entire GP series, all the cheesefests, Nationals, Worlds, and then go on tour, plus the Olympics given the year. I see this change in figure skating as at least an equal contributor to higher injury rates as the COP, given how much we DON'T know at this point.

As for the COP restricting creativity, I say baloney. I think it's a matter of skaters and choreographers getting used to the COP and using it to be creative. An analogy may be Film Noir of the '40s and '50s. The Hayes' Code put all kinds of restrictions on what could be said or shown on film, so creative directors who wanted to make films about the darker aspects of life learned to imply all the "hot" stuff. Similarly, I think that once those invovled in skating learn to work with it, we'll see more creativity, not less. Of course, some people, both fans and those in skating will never like the COP. That's their prerogative, but it's also creating a problem for themselves that isn't going away, at least for the skaters. Fans at least can give up watching.

I know I often use this example, but it's because I thought it was such a striking piece of choreography, which is Tarasova's black&white "Swan Lake" for Sasha Cohen. It had some of the most creative choreography I'd seenn in years and was certainly artistically expressive. Weir's "Otonal" was also created under COP, as well as Suguri's "Paint It Black" SP, plus Arakawa's World gold medal LP--all beautifually creative, at least for me. And there is in the COP reward for "expression of the music" and other choreographic issues, which to my mind belong in the creativity category.

I think right now skaters are focused on the technical big point grabbers, but I believe it's the natural reaction to any new system. Go for the objective stuff like spins and jumps, things a federation can't argue over. But I do believe that the judges have, do, and will reward those skaters wiho have the best balance between technical content and aesthetic expression.

In other words, I think a basically clean program (no falls) that affects the judges' emotions, whether it be excitement, ie, Irina '05 Worlds, or "lump in the throat," ie, Kwan '98 Nationals, will garner higher scores than a clean program of equal or similar point value that's just blah. However, I would NOT want to have a "degree of emotion" section in the COP. After all, some judges' lump in the throat could be a real yawn for other judges. I think there are enough ways for skaters to build in artistry and emotion under the COP. Great choreographers such as Tarasova, Lori Nichol, and LeeAnn Miller did so under the 6.0 system and continue to do so under COP. But nobody's going to hit one out of the rink every time. Choreographers, just like skaters, have their up and down years too.

And I think both Michelle and Sasha are genuinely hurt as much as they and their physicians say they are and I wish all skaters who may get injured this season that they recover in time to bring A game to the Olympics.

Rgirl
 
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Rgirl said:
... "The point is, a pro career was the payoff for winning big during an intense but relatively short competitive career. ... the idea of going for two Olympics was not considered ... .

Therefore, Michelle and Irina and those who have come after them are the first generation of skaters to compete under the system in which the big money comes with competition instead of professional skating. ... "
Rgirl

Actually, going to two Olys was quite common (Peggy went to '64Olys before she won gold in '68; Scott went to '80 before winning in '84, Brian Orser won two silvers, etc.) More importantly, however, is that Michelle and Irina are NOT the first generation where the big money came with competition.

Skaters were allowed to make money off of endorsements by 1992 -- it was mentioned in one TV special, for example, that Nancy Kerrigan getting more endorsements than Tonya was one of the reasons why Tonya was so jealous of Nancy that she was willing to have her whacked, and there has been a massive debate for years if Kristi's endorsements was affected by her skin color. Furthermore, both pro and Oly-eligible skaters made a lot more in the "post-whack" era, which is now over.
 
Thanks for the corrections, Attyfan. I should have been more clear about the two Olympics thing, since I meant that it was rare for a skater to go for two Olympic GOLD medals. You're absolutely right about it being common for skaters to do two Olympics. I will only add that, except for the '92 and '94 Olympics, the first Olympics one was not expected to medal in--it was sort of the "warm-up" Olympics--and the second Olympics was when the top skaters from the previous year's World Championships were expected to "battle for the gold."

For example, Kristi could have easily gone for a second OGM in '94, but even if endorsements were allowed in '92, of the US skaters who had won Olympic medals in '92, only Nancy Kerrigan remained eligible. She felt she could win the OGM and with only a two-year wait, why not? But both Kristi and Paul Wylie went directly to long and very successful careers with SOI, as did Kurt Browning, even without an Olympic medal of any kind--though with four World titles and his great skating gifts and charisma. Of course, in '94 pro skaters could reinstate their eligibility, as quite a number did.

As for the endorsements being allowed in 1992, thank you for the exact date. I said mid-'90s since I wasn't sure. However, I still think that Michelle, Irina, and the skaters who have come after them are the first generation to compete under the system where staying eligible pays more, if you're a top skater, than turning pro because their entire careers have occurred under the top eligible equals big money system.

IMO, Nancy Kerrigan and that group skated in a "half-and-half" era. They started skating and establishing their status under the "turn pro to make the dough" era and still, even in '94, ironically because of the very attack perpetrated by Harding's cronies, pro skating still meant big money and the potential for a more normal life, i.e., for Nancy it meant getting married and having a child. By '98, however, the skating boom had started going bust and those skaters who turned pro after the '98 Olympics, even OGMs, didn't get the big endorsement offers previous OGMs had receieved, although I realize that for Kulik a lot of it had to do with him being a non-North American (hopefully that will change).

As for Tara, I don't know if I just didn't notice her endorsements because they were geared toward tweens and teens or if she just didn't get them. Does anybody know? I do know that even then Tara seemed to gear herself toward acting and did a soap for a few appearances and got some primetime gigs. Ironically, it was the late '90s when Kristi started getting BIG money national endorsements, such as Smart Ones. OTOH, both Kulik and Lipinski got lucrative contracts with SOI; however, by 2002, SOI was not selling the tickets it once had, nor was COI. Also by '02, for different reasons, Ilia and Tara either chose not to renew their contracts or SOI did not renew. I have heard from a very reliable source that SOI did not have the same amount of money they'd had in '94, for example, to pay the skaters.

But who knows? Perhaps when, if ever, Michelle turns pro, she may revitalize interest in pro skating. There's nothing like seeing great skating live and for a lot of figure skating fans who can't travel to competitions or who want to see the lights and the glitz, a who coming to their own or a nearby city is the only way they get to see those glorious skaters zoom by. During the Tonya/Nancy era, I think a lot of people went to shows out of pure curiosity. I can't tell you how many people I heard asking all through COI '94 (had a different name then) no matter which woman was skating, "Is that the girl who got whacked in the knee?" After Nancy skated, which was before Oksana Baiul and Brian Boitano, I'd say at least 1/3rd of the audience left. Also, during '95-'97, Oksana Baiul became rather notorious for her behavior--"Orphan Gone Bad, Too Much Too Soon" kind of thing--which may have attracted a certain kind of fan I wouldn't know how to classify, lol.

I could make many more points about why a certain skater said s/he did or did not turn pro, but this is already too long. My main point was just to encourage folks to consider the impact the change in financial opportunities for eligible and pro skaters had in the whole scheme of training, competing, and injuries. Thanks again for the two-Olympic wording and date corrections, Attyfan. Do you rent out your memory? :agree:

Rgirl
 
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I have been watching figure skating since about middle sixties and pre-1998 it was totally normal for Olympic gold medallists to turn pro (exceptions being at least e.g. Urmanov, G&P, Witt because of various reasons) after they won the Olympics. Only those skaters that lost the Olympic gold medal, stayed to try again.
 
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Red Dog said:
http://www.sashacohen.com/journal.shtml

I LOVE her comment when she says it's refreshing to answer different types of questions rather than the usual ones. If there's one thing I like about Cohen, it's her honesty. I find her remarks refreshing myself, rather than the typical comments a lot of other skaters give.

I am sure you LOVE Cohen's comments, and in this case she says it's refreshing to answer different types of questions. IMO reporters often ask skaters what do you want to do with your life after skating, and that is not different from asking how do you feel coming into this season.
 
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I am sure you LOVE Cohen's comments

I said that myself, and there's absolutely no need for you to reiterate my very point. People got it the first time. :sheesh: :scratch:
 
Red Dog said:
I said that myself, and there's absolutely no need for you to reiterate my very point. People got it the first time. :sheesh: :scratch:
Ya just gotta take into account who it is coming from, always got a GOOD word for Sasha. NOT
 
cutiepatutie said:
Ya just gotta take into account who it is coming from, always got a GOOD word for Sasha. NOT


I was talking about RD's LOVE of Cohen's comments in my previous message. Why ya went off a tangent :sheesh:
 
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