I don't think her coach was mad at her, when they sat down in the Kiss & Cry she said, "that was a toughie". I think it was just that Kimmie was so heartbroken and disappointed in herself. I don't know whenever I'm down people say I have this air around me that makes them think it's better to let me be left alone & sullen instead of comforting me. Which is spot on because I'll probably breakdown & cry in front of them if they try & comfort me. I thought Frank Caroll & Congemi? were a bit stoic with Bebe though.
Senior Ladies' Free Skate
- Thread starter PolymerBob
- Start date
I'd tell your friend that figure skating is differnet from gymnastics. While elements are really, really difficult in gymnastics, the gymnasts do get to land on their whole feet, so to speak. Figure skaters in contrast land on a raser sharp edge, which means it's way more common for someone to fall. Falls in gymnastics though should be less common than falls in figure skating.
I think the thing is too, all things being equal a fall does matter. But well in reality, it's not equal between Mirai and the rest of the clean girls. (The judges clearly made that one clear) MIrai's basic skating/over all skating is just a lot better than Rachael's and Ashleys, and well that does matter.
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2005
I didnt get the impression that she was mad at Kimmie. At least I hope she wasnt. I agree with camion, when Im upset I need time by myself to regroup so I dont break down. I am one of those people who get emotional easy, so Ive learned how to keep it in check. But thats just me.
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2008
Some random thoughts from a relative newbie who was at the event.
You missed it on television (although Hammond did comment on it), but after Kimmie sat down to await her marks, they put her up on the jumbotron and the crowd went absolutely nuts for her. It was so heart-warming and so sincere and so emotional. Kimmie welled up instantly, looked straight into the camera and said "Thank you." As sad as everyone was at that moment, there was also a lot of love and a lot of hope in the room at the same time. I truly hope that heartfelt ovation will stick with her as she trains for Worlds.
Another thing you missed on television was a hilarious 5 minutes of Melissa doing the wave with the crowd while waiting for her marks. Everytime the wave came around to that end of the arena she stood up and joined in.
She might not have all the tools and level of difficulty in her programs that the top skaters do, but man is that girl FUN! Her enthusiasm is infectious and she really knows how to work an audience, it was a joy to watch both of her programs.
As someone who didnt know hardly anything about her going in, I can't tell you how much I love the way Ashley Wagner skates! She's a little impatient, maybe even a little violent(?) (someone else here called it "jerky") the way she skates and the way she transitions from element to element. I just love her style, so aggressive and so powerful and athletic, and not a single hint of doubt when she jumps, she just rips them off with pure confidence. Like I said, I'm pretty much a newbie here, so I can't make informed, well-thought out remarks on really technical things.....all I know is, her style of skating is very impressive in person and I think I have a new favorite skater.
You missed it on television (although Hammond did comment on it), but after Kimmie sat down to await her marks, they put her up on the jumbotron and the crowd went absolutely nuts for her. It was so heart-warming and so sincere and so emotional. Kimmie welled up instantly, looked straight into the camera and said "Thank you." As sad as everyone was at that moment, there was also a lot of love and a lot of hope in the room at the same time. I truly hope that heartfelt ovation will stick with her as she trains for Worlds.
Another thing you missed on television was a hilarious 5 minutes of Melissa doing the wave with the crowd while waiting for her marks. Everytime the wave came around to that end of the arena she stood up and joined in.
She might not have all the tools and level of difficulty in her programs that the top skaters do, but man is that girl FUN! Her enthusiasm is infectious and she really knows how to work an audience, it was a joy to watch both of her programs.As someone who didnt know hardly anything about her going in, I can't tell you how much I love the way Ashley Wagner skates! She's a little impatient, maybe even a little violent(?) (someone else here called it "jerky") the way she skates and the way she transitions from element to element. I just love her style, so aggressive and so powerful and athletic, and not a single hint of doubt when she jumps, she just rips them off with pure confidence. Like I said, I'm pretty much a newbie here, so I can't make informed, well-thought out remarks on really technical things.....all I know is, her style of skating is very impressive in person and I think I have a new favorite skater.
Yeah, who cares about touching the soul and inspiring the crowd to give a standing ovation before the skater even finishes? Caroline was the clear winner of the free skate, IMO. Evaluated as a sum of the parts or as a whole, she simply was the best. Caroline's skating, apparently more than anyone else's, reveals the holes in the CoP system.
I liked Ashley's overall performance (SP+FS) best. I only agreed with the judging with respect to Mirai winning the SP.
Great pts. bekalc! And thanx for responding. LOL. I thought I was going to be ignored. Yeah I agree. I think Mirai and Caroline have a definite edge over the other up & coming skaters just as Mao and Yu-Na have over the other skaters. My friend was just real passionate about how the scoring system was kinda deterring ppl from her sport & she thought although it was more arbitrary to have the two-category 6.0 system in past figure skating history, it might be better for spectators to understand that certain skills have a risk factor & "dinged" as she termed it for falls. I think her logic was that even if a skater is better in execution quality & have beautiful skills that figure skating was similar to gymnastics in that it is a spectator "sport" (please don't flame me for this, her words not mine) the athletic or risky skills like jumping should be weighed as much, if not more or it wouldn't be different from ice dancing, ballet. I thought Mirai deserved to win & I definitely disagree with my friend in that I feel subtle aesthetic movements should be factored highly or else it would just be a jumping contest.
Hey Snowstorm7! Welcome. I like Ashley too. Great enthusiasm. Her coach is funny too.
Hey Snowstorm7! Welcome. I like Ashley too. Great enthusiasm. Her coach is funny too.
Kimmie did look beautiful. She had softer arms and she felt the music, IMO. I would even say that she was elegant and for the first time I thought she made the grade in terms of being an artistic skater ... well, at least until her 3rd fall.
With her improved artistry and shaky jumps, I gotta think that she has scrap any further thoughts of doing triple-triples this year and instead focus on skating clean triple-double (with at most a 2A+3T) programs. That should safely put her in the top 5 at Worlds and we must trust that Ashley will get in the top 8.
It's almost stunning to see the similarities between Meissner and Miki Ando....they both seemed to experience the highest of highs and lowest of lows, sometimes even in the same season. They both won the World championship when no one expected them to, both have had to deal with increasing national pressure, and both have had meltdowns in several recent performances. The one time they squared off in 2007 SA, they both had off-nights but KM managed to pull off the win. I don't know about Japan but it seems most of the hype seems to be on Mao Asada when Ando is the reigning champ, and here in the US the hype is shifting to Zhang, Nagasu and some of the other up-and-comers and the press has all but forgotten about Meissner, although she definitely is a favorite of the skating audience as was shown last night in many ways.
Okay, I want to say this. Who touches you is a completely subjective thing. There are tons of people who are totally bowled over by Caroline, she's got lovely qualities to her skating for sure. Pretty girl. But then are other people who really aren't bowled over by Caroline. Honestly, while I think Caroline's pretty her performances have never wowed me the way, that Yu-na Kim's short program at Worlds did. Or Mao's amazing long program. And I don't particularly think that Caroline is much more amazing than Ashley or Rachael....The point is that you have to go with more objective criteria since it's a Sport.
And well who has better basic skating skills, better speed, etc that a little bit more objective at least for the experts. (maybe not for us but the experts). And honestly, I think it's much harder to skate a performance with speed, to skate a performance worrying about having good edging etc. Than it is to just slowly go out there and land jumps. That's part of the difficulty.
I'm not saying that "performance doesn't matter" it does, and there is a mark for it that should be used. But I'm saying who had the best performance is completely subjective as well.
I mean how long is the Tara/Michelle Olympics thing going to be debated. Or the Lu Chen/Michelle decision. Art is really a subjective thing.
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- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
Now here's something really weird - in 2 different ways! Katrina Hacker doesn't have a bio on the U.S. Figure Skating home page. But I found an archived version that looks about 2 years old. It's like they just stopped updating it.
Also, if you look at the photo banner at the top of the page, it's correct for a couple of seconds, then reverts to a 2 or 3 year old version. It even has Michelle in there.
http://web.archive.org/web/20060221235745/http://www.usfigureskating.org/AthleteBio.asp?id=30120
Also, if you look at the photo banner at the top of the page, it's correct for a couple of seconds, then reverts to a 2 or 3 year old version. It even has Michelle in there.
http://web.archive.org/web/20060221235745/http://www.usfigureskating.org/AthleteBio.asp?id=30120
Miscellaneous Thoughts:
I think it's pretty hard to decide who among the top 4 had the best free skate, IMO. They all skated pretty darn well. That being said, Nagasu kind of leaves me cold. There is certainly nothing WRONG with her skating, she just doesn't grab my attention all that much. Caroline Zhang actually kind of does to an extent, but to me she has a touch of that 'determined robot' quality that Lipinski had, and I find that kind of creepy in a skater that young. Nagasu at least looked like she was having fun out there. I know Zhang had a lot of attention focused on her that she could have done without and that probably made her freeze up a bit (she certainly seemed a lot stiffer at Nationals than she did during the GP), but even without that, in general she seems to have that "overly cool" quality.
After Meissner fell apart, I was rooting for Wagner; not only do I like her skating and her personality, but a lot of the rooting value for me with Ashley was her age. You know, it's pretty darn pathetic when one of the top skating powers in the world can't manage to come up with a National champion who's old enough to go to Worlds. I imagine there is quite a bit of excitement in many circles about how this Nationals is Chapter One of an exciting new era in US Ladies Skating, but only time will tell that. If in 2 or 3 years Nagasu, Flatt, Zhang, AND Wagner are all still around, I'll be pretty surprised. Skating history pretty much bears out my skepticism in that department.
On a more positive note, the two surprises of the evening (on a night full of them), for me, were Rachael Flatt and Katrina Hacker. I've criticized Rachael on this board a few times in the past simply because I never considered overly cutesy facial expressions and "Muppet Mouth" to exactly count as "musical interpretation", which is something she gets a lot of raves for. But last night, I have to say, Rachael was fabulous. Her long was terrifically done, very sophisticated, extremely elegant, and she used the music beautifully. As to Hacker, it's been such a long time since her name has floated around that I forgot that I'd actually even heard of her [], but I really liked her skating. Much like Alissa Czisny, her jumps are a bit of an adventure, but "on the ground", her skating is quite lovely.
One positive thing about the rather weird results is that Bebe Liang might finally get to go to Worlds. Heck of a way to get there, but it might well be her last shot. She's had some unfortunate mistakes at past Nationals, at others she's just been flat out ripped off, but I for one would love to see her make the team, even if it IS by default. I'm sure she'll take it....
I think it's pretty hard to decide who among the top 4 had the best free skate, IMO. They all skated pretty darn well. That being said, Nagasu kind of leaves me cold. There is certainly nothing WRONG with her skating, she just doesn't grab my attention all that much. Caroline Zhang actually kind of does to an extent, but to me she has a touch of that 'determined robot' quality that Lipinski had, and I find that kind of creepy in a skater that young. Nagasu at least looked like she was having fun out there. I know Zhang had a lot of attention focused on her that she could have done without and that probably made her freeze up a bit (she certainly seemed a lot stiffer at Nationals than she did during the GP), but even without that, in general she seems to have that "overly cool" quality.
After Meissner fell apart, I was rooting for Wagner; not only do I like her skating and her personality, but a lot of the rooting value for me with Ashley was her age. You know, it's pretty darn pathetic when one of the top skating powers in the world can't manage to come up with a National champion who's old enough to go to Worlds. I imagine there is quite a bit of excitement in many circles about how this Nationals is Chapter One of an exciting new era in US Ladies Skating, but only time will tell that. If in 2 or 3 years Nagasu, Flatt, Zhang, AND Wagner are all still around, I'll be pretty surprised. Skating history pretty much bears out my skepticism in that department.
On a more positive note, the two surprises of the evening (on a night full of them), for me, were Rachael Flatt and Katrina Hacker. I've criticized Rachael on this board a few times in the past simply because I never considered overly cutesy facial expressions and "Muppet Mouth" to exactly count as "musical interpretation", which is something she gets a lot of raves for. But last night, I have to say, Rachael was fabulous. Her long was terrifically done, very sophisticated, extremely elegant, and she used the music beautifully. As to Hacker, it's been such a long time since her name has floated around that I forgot that I'd actually even heard of her [
], but I really liked her skating. Much like Alissa Czisny, her jumps are a bit of an adventure, but "on the ground", her skating is quite lovely.One positive thing about the rather weird results is that Bebe Liang might finally get to go to Worlds. Heck of a way to get there, but it might well be her last shot. She's had some unfortunate mistakes at past Nationals, at others she's just been flat out ripped off, but I for one would love to see her make the team, even if it IS by default. I'm sure she'll take it....
I think your friend was referring to Vanessa Ferrari, who in 2006 won a World All-Around title despite falling on the beam. Perfection at all costs vs. Difficulty trumps all arguments are nothing new, as SLC 2002 pairs especially come to mind. I have a problem with the perfection at all costs argument on an ideological level. i.e. true perfection does not exist. It is an ideal, not a reality. Therefore a balance had to be struck between Perfection and difficulty, after all figure skating is a legit sport.
And to the poster who said before somewhere about figure skating being falls being more common than gymnastics falls, well amongst the top 10 at a given World Championship that probably is true. However, as an ex-gymnast myself, it is a far from natural sport, human beings were not designed to perform acrobatic maneuvers on a 4-inch wide beam.
Anyway, I digress. Go Rachael!!!
Okay, so I'm even more disappointed with US judging after Johnny's loss tonight, but anyway, I don't have any more energy to criticize the judging.
Let's get to some positives! I had some spare time on a plane today and decided to have a closer look at the protocols. Comparing Ladies National's LP protocols with all the GP LP's (6 GPs + GPF), I looked up the top scorers (base value + GOE) in each of the following categories (I think I did all the numbers correctly, but it's possibly I missed something after squinting at hundreds of tiny little numbers):
Jump combo: Mao Asada (12.75), Yu-na Kim (11.5), Caroline Zhang (10.5), Carolina Kostner (10.3) -- actually Ashley Wagner scored the highest (11.57) at National's, but I consider her not getting a 'e' deduction an anomaly, let's see how she fares at Worlds
(oops, left out Mao, shame on me!)
Spin: Caroline Zhang (4.5), Yukari Nakano (4.2), Mao Asada (4.0)
Spirals: Mirai (5.26), Caroline (5.0), Mao Asada (4.4)
Footwork: Carolina Kostner (4.4), Mao Asada (3.9), Mirai Nagasu (3.74), Caroline Zhang (3.67)
(oops, left out Mirai the first time)
So who shows up in all four lists? Only little Caroline! Yeah, that's right, little Caroline who has so many flaws, is actually the only one who can compete with the world's best in terms of getting the most points for each of jump combination, spin, spiral sequence, and footwork sequence. Talk about the whole package!
Of course these are only the TES components, the PCS is another story: on that list, Caroline is pretty far behind. But this is really good news for her. In the TES, Caroline was already competitive with the best, as was shown by the GPF protocols; with the latest LP, she showed that she can also garner lots of points for footwork sequence and the 3F-3T if she skates with more speed and freedom. I think if she really works on her strength/power/flow, and gets more energetic choreography/music next year, then she has a bright future ahead.
I'm not putting down any of the other top young skaters in the US. There are four very talented skaters, and we're so lucky to have them all! I just hope that Caroline can take away the positives and not be too disappointed with her 4th place finish in the LP despite a great performance. :agree:
Let's get to some positives! I had some spare time on a plane today and decided to have a closer look at the protocols. Comparing Ladies National's LP protocols with all the GP LP's (6 GPs + GPF), I looked up the top scorers (base value + GOE) in each of the following categories (I think I did all the numbers correctly, but it's possibly I missed something after squinting at hundreds of tiny little numbers):
Jump combo: Mao Asada (12.75), Yu-na Kim (11.5), Caroline Zhang (10.5), Carolina Kostner (10.3) -- actually Ashley Wagner scored the highest (11.57) at National's, but I consider her not getting a 'e' deduction an anomaly, let's see how she fares at Worlds
(oops, left out Mao, shame on me!)
Spin: Caroline Zhang (4.5), Yukari Nakano (4.2), Mao Asada (4.0)
Spirals: Mirai (5.26), Caroline (5.0), Mao Asada (4.4)
Footwork: Carolina Kostner (4.4), Mao Asada (3.9), Mirai Nagasu (3.74), Caroline Zhang (3.67)
(oops, left out Mirai the first time)
So who shows up in all four lists? Only little Caroline! Yeah, that's right, little Caroline who has so many flaws, is actually the only one who can compete with the world's best in terms of getting the most points for each of jump combination, spin, spiral sequence, and footwork sequence. Talk about the whole package!
Of course these are only the TES components, the PCS is another story: on that list, Caroline is pretty far behind. But this is really good news for her. In the TES, Caroline was already competitive with the best, as was shown by the GPF protocols; with the latest LP, she showed that she can also garner lots of points for footwork sequence and the 3F-3T if she skates with more speed and freedom. I think if she really works on her strength/power/flow, and gets more energetic choreography/music next year, then she has a bright future ahead.
I'm not putting down any of the other top young skaters in the US. There are four very talented skaters, and we're so lucky to have them all! I just hope that Caroline can take away the positives and not be too disappointed with her 4th place finish in the LP despite a great performance. :agree:
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Everyone knows I have a soft spot for Caroline... Maybe it's because I can glimpse (a much younger version of) myself in her. Anyway, I've seen various posters voicing puzzlement or unease or dislike of Caroline's "personality" (whatever one can detect from bits & pieces filtered through the media and from well-rehearsed performances).
I think Caroline is an intelligent and ambitious child, and she is at an age where she is too precocious and self-conscious to act naive and carefree like most 14-year-olds, and yet not mature or experienced enough to give an outwardly diplomatic, smooth appearance (which Michelle excels at). It can come off as perhaps aloof or calculating or even conceited, but that's not how it really is -- it's rather a sort of self-consciousness arising from ready anticipation of others' reactions to her words and behavior, and yet lacking the confidence or experience to influence those reactions appropriately.
Does that make any sense at all? I just remember myself going through a phase like hers, and the frustration at other people's misunderstandings.
I think Caroline is an intelligent and ambitious child, and she is at an age where she is too precocious and self-conscious to act naive and carefree like most 14-year-olds, and yet not mature or experienced enough to give an outwardly diplomatic, smooth appearance (which Michelle excels at). It can come off as perhaps aloof or calculating or even conceited, but that's not how it really is -- it's rather a sort of self-consciousness arising from ready anticipation of others' reactions to her words and behavior, and yet lacking the confidence or experience to influence those reactions appropriately.
Does that make any sense at all?
I just remember myself going through a phase like hers, and the frustration at other people's misunderstandings.- Joined
- Jul 1, 2007
What's great right now is that everyone has a different favorite.
When was the last time, if ever, that people were debating between 4 different performers about who should have won Gold? WOW.
When was the last time, if ever, that people were debating between 4 different performers about who should have won Gold? WOW.
I believe in Kimmie's strong comeback.
But till she makes that comeback, Kimmie's situation doesn't yet resemble Miki's.
... I hope it will; it must.
I imagine the repeating of two meltdowns in a row has much hurt Kimmie's confidence.
But when she overcomes this adversity, she'll have a huge gold mental medal within her that'll support herself throughout her remaining career. She's got to get this medal.
Believe in yourself, Kimmie!!
That's what Miki did and it works!
I don\\\'t really believe in comparing the scores that elements have received - in some cases the judges are judging by reputation rather by actual quality of elements, in some cases they are extremely lenient (Carolina\\\'s lvl4 on footwork at NHK), in some cases a disastrously looking element, but CoP-smart scores way higher than a beautiful and difficult element that according to judges lacks some feature. It\\\'s a big pet peeve of mine.
But anyway, you skipped the highest score for a combo: Mao\\\'s 3F-3L after the half-way mark received 12.75 points.
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