Should ISU take a stance on Yagudin's insults against other athletes?

[Skatesocs]

I agree in principle. But I do not think that this thread has had any "useful exchange of ideas," I don't think anyone has taken advantage of a chance to learn anything or to reconcile with anyone. I believe that you have encapsulated this thread with these words: "nothing but hostile parties becoming more entrenched in their positions and harboring resentment."

What would be "reconciliation" here then? I am not sure.

 

[Mathman]

(Change) came as a result of dialogue and persuasion. If threats, boycotts, public shaming were effective in REALLY changing hearts, it would have happened earlier than it did.

Still, I think that movements to raise peoples' consciousness are necessary to get the ball roling. I greatly admire the "non-violent direct action protests" that Gandhi organized and led against colonialism and the British Raj in the 1940s. Little by little, like the sea beating against the cliffs, the British populace started rethinking their world view. (And I think the Indian peoppe were lucky that their opponents were the British, and not, say, the Visigoths.)

You never know what will influence someone. The woman's suffrage movement was successful not because men changed their minds and decided it was OK for women to vote, but because they couldn't bear seeing their wives and daughters being carted off to prison over the issue.

 

[el henry]

Calling him out is not the same thing as shutting him down because we disagree.

Adam's response, recently added to this thread, is worth FAR more than working to get Alexei Yagudin fired.

When people communicate, even when they don't agree, outcomes are better. Now Yagudin and his supporters have to process Adam's rebuttal, and I hope they do.

I loooooved Adam's response of donation in Alexei's name to the Okra Project, to assist black trans people. And that he rejected Alexei's so-called "apology".

I do not believe that Alexei's heart and mind will be changed by Adam's response, given his history of fourth-grade level insults against men whom he judges not to be "manly" enough.

And given that history, I'm all for the hammer. Saying that Alexei should not be accredited to commentate at ISU events is not shutting him down. He has the right to be as objectionable and as transphobic and as childish as he wants in his social media. And if he is truly an adult, he understands actions have consequences. And he should have prepared for them

 

[ladyjane]

Response from Rippon
https://www.instagram.com/p/CBOYvhEMV0-/

Good for you Adam!

 

[Skatesocs]

If threats, boycotts, public shaming were effective in REALLY changing hearts, it would have happened earlier than it did.

that's not true at all if you look at several independence movements across the world...

 

[Mathman]

What would be "reconciliation" here then? I am not sure.

I think reconciliation would be to agree to live and let live. One person says "I think homosexual activity is wrong and I am not going to engage in it." Another says, "Whatever."

It's the part about, "I think this is bad and if you disagree, then me and my buddies ar going to drag you behind our truck until you are dead."

One more note about the religion angle is the "Jonah problem." If one member of society does wrong (like Jonah didn't go to Ninevah liike he was supposed to), then God would punish the whole boatload until they threw Jonah overboard. This sounds like primitive thinking, but even today you read things like, "The Corona virus is God's way of punishing us for allowing transexuals to serve in the army."

Now, you would think that this is too silly to pay attention to. And yet the President issued an order to kick transexuals out of the armed forces.

 

[Skatesocs]

I think reconciliation would be to agree to live and let live. One person says "I think homosexual activity is wrong and I am not going to engage in it." Another says, "Whatever."

It the part about, "I think this is bad and if you disagree, then me and my buddies ar going to drag you behind our truck until you are dead."

One more not about the religion angle is the "Jonah problem." If one member of society does wrong (like Jonah didn't
go to Ninevah liike he was supposed to), then God would punish the whole boatload until they threw Jonah overboard. This sounds like primitive thinking, but even today you read things like, "The Corona virus is God's way of punishing us for allowing transexuals to serve in the army."

Now, you would think that this is too silly to pay attention to. And yet the President issued an order to kick transexuals out of the armed forces.

I absolutely agree that we should live and let live. It's why I specifically only took issue with the "deserve to die". As I said, I don't even care if Russia doesn't like LGBTQ, as long as they don't get ostracized. Everyone's entitled to whatever opinion, and we are entitled to ignore.

I didn't understand that you were going for a broader goal haha. In that case, likely, we will not get the same social standing for some previously (or currently) repressed groups in our lifetime. It has lagged too much up until a few decades ago.

I don't know why you said no one learned anything I learned from your posts here.

 

[Mawwerg]

I think I would turn that around. It is precisely the goal of organized religions to make everyone think and act the same way, and to punish those who don't in the name of the gods.

Yeah, however organized religions usually have very strong roots and so they change slowly.

 

[Tavi...]

Response from Rippon
https://www.instagram.com/p/CBOYvhEMV0-/

What a great response- bravo, Adam!

 

[TontoK]

I loooooved Adam's response of donation in Alexei's name to the Okra Project, to assist black trans people. And that he rejected Alexei's so-called "apology".

I do not believe that Alexei's heart and mind will be changed by Adam's response, given his history of fourth-grade level insults against men whom he judges not to be "manly" enough.

And given that history, I'm all for the hammer. Saying that Alexei should not be accredited to commentate at ISU events is not shutting him down. He has the right to be as objectionable and as transphobic and as childish as he wants in his social media. And if he is truly an adult, he understands actions have consequences. And he should have prepared for them

All of this is fine, so long as you are ready to be on the receiving end of the hammer when the tables are turned.

I get that we are discussing one specific issue, one in which you and I are in agreement.

But what happens when OUR views on some other topic are the "incorrect" opinion and the mob comes for us?

I've seen the "cancel culture" thing in action. I'm not a fan.

 

[el henry]

All of this is fine, so long as you are ready to be on the receiving end of the hammer when the tables are turned.

I get that we are discussing one specific issue, one in which you and I are in agreement.

But what happens when OUR views on some other topic are the "incorrect" opinion and the mob comes for us?

I've seen the "cancel culture" thing in action. I'm not a fan.

I see this as a political argument, and even the term "cancel culture" appears (where I have read it) in political articles with which I usually do not agree I am perfectly willing to continue by PM or maybe even the Speakeasy, but personally I'm not sure it's appropriate here.

And so I confine my comment to Alexei Yagudin, where we agree. I think the reaction from the larger skating community is perfectly predicatable and understandable, and as I said, actions have consequences.

 

[TontoK]

I see this as a political argument, and even the term "cancel culture" appears (where I have read it) in political articles with which I usually do not agree I am perfectly willing to continue by PM or maybe even the Speakeasy, but personally I'm not sure it's appropriate here.

And so I confine my comment to Alexei Yagudin, where we agree. I think the reaction from the larger skating community is perfectly predicatable and understandable, and as I said, actions have consequences.

I agree. Let's leave it be.

It's not worth friends arguing over a topic in which we are in agreement on the points that really matter.

 

[gmyers]

People saying things I don’t agree with is very common and I don’t Believe they should ever lose their jobs when I disagree with a person

 

[Interspectator]

Good for you Adam!

:agree:

It was A perfect response

 

[TallyT]

People saying things I don’t agree with is very common and I don’t Believe they should ever lose their jobs when I disagree with a person

There is, you do agree? - a difference between disagreement and saying someone should die because you don't like who they are.

Okay, hopefully my last topic: I would humbly suggest that what the world needs is NOT more love (since different brands of that cause as much grief as anything), certainly not more disapproval and moral superiority and hate, and not more "our views" and "their views" and "my religion/country/beliefs above all". What would be good is if most - all - people worked harder to develop that small but powerful voice in the back of their mind to remind them that...

"I could be wrong."

And cheers to Adam :2thumbs: He may not be a favourite of mine, but he showed how to do a classy smackdown and then some.

 

[lost3iron]

This amount of hatred that his post shows can not only be attributed to religion. He has obviously deep personal issues with homosexuality and for whatever reason he feels threatened by gay people. Maybe he is gay and is ashamed for it. I for sure feel a little bit of shame and guilt for liking him and ignoring all his previous comments.

 

[Harriet]

Response from Rippon
https://www.instagram.com/p/CBOYvhEMV0-/

Oh, how beautiful. Well done Adam!

 

[TallyT]

This amount of hatred that his post shows can not only be attributed to religion. He has obviously deep personal issues with homosexuality and for whatever reason he feels threatened by gay people. Maybe he is gay and is ashamed for it. I for sure feel a little bit of shame and guilt for liking him and ignoring all his previous comments.

The line between liking, even loving, someone's art/skill and approving of them as a person is a hard one to navigate sometimes, as such gifts are sadly not given just to the deserving. Try classical music fans' mental contortions over one R Wagner for a perfect example.

 

[NaVi]

This amount of hatred that his post shows can not only be attributed to religion. He has obviously deep personal issues with homosexuality and for whatever reason he feels threatened by gay people. Maybe he is gay and is ashamed for it. I for sure feel a little bit of shame and guilt for liking him and ignoring all his previous comments.

He's the opposite of religious... one time he mocked those who say "Christ is Risen" during Easter on his instagram. Serafima was shocked... not sure exactly what it was but "quelle horreur" comes to mind.

 

[rabidline]

Response from Rippon
https://www.instagram.com/p/CBOYvhEMV0-/

Perfect response. And honestly, if someone tells me what Yagudin said about Adam, I'll respond with worse than telling him to go shove his OGM up his ass.