Skaters Dispute Figure Skating Stereotypes

[Alex D]

Walden's graphic novel features synchro skating. "The competition scenes in the book nail the wild enthusiasm that is a staple of the synchro discipline, with the shrieking and chanting of the crowd." --from the Brannen article.


"Figure skating is one of those sports that doesn't get enough recognition for the physical challenges of the sport." --Ashley Wagner

Do you agree? Do you think the IJS scoring system has contributed to the general public gaining a better understanding of the physical challenges? Discuss.

Personally, I feel that the scoring system does not factor in enough, that a fall is a missed element and therefore, kind of downgrades athletes who perform it clean. In other sports, you will lose your element and it puts athletes that go clean, above those that do not. I would like to see this being factored in also at FS, as I feel that this would boost the impact which clean programs have and people might realize how much harder it is to go 4 minutes without an error, compared to 4 minutes with a few.

As for the physical demands in general, well this is an issue in many sports actually, as fans only see the actual performance, but not the practice hours, press conferences, sponsoring dates, injuries, diet´s and so on. I doubt that any scoring system, will ever be able to express that and even behind the scene footage, does not show everything. I also wonder how many fans would like to see, how an athlete throws up, how he or she screams in pain and how they work out in the gym, gaining nothing that is actually visible.

Quite often those background stories available, are a bit too "positive" and soft. Who actually knows, that Athletes in the Ukraine had to perform without any heat during winter, they had to put on jackets and scarfs while indoors in preparation for Rio 2016!

 

[gkelly]

Personally, I feel that the scoring system does not factor in enough, that a fall is a missed element and therefore, kind of downgrades athletes who perform it clean. In other sports, you will lose your element and it puts athletes that go clean, above those that do not.

However, there are many different kinds of errors that can happen on a jump between falling and completing it cleanly.

Just because the skater remains upright does not mean that a jump was clean.

Even if jumps with falls received no value, there are other jump errors that should also result in skaters receiving no value or next to nothing while remaining vertical. And of course it's also possible for a skater to build up enough points with high-quality other elements and basic skating and performance to make up for the loss of one element compared to skaters with lesser difficulty and/or lesser quality and no falls.

I would like to see this being factored in also at FS, as I feel that this would boost the impact which clean programs have and people might realize how much harder it is to go 4 minutes without an error, compared to 4 minutes with a few.

I think it's very easy for casual viewers to realize that a program in which they can't recognize any errors has more "impact" than a program in which they can see one or more falls or stumbles.

But it is in fact much more difficult to fully rotate a jump, come down on one foot, and then fall than it is to underrotate and stand up on two feet.

It's much more difficult to almost-rotate and fall on a triple axel or quad or triple-triple combination than to stick to double axels and solo triples and triple-double combinations.

So a clean program may have more aesthetic impact than one with falls, but if that cleanness was achieved through easier elements, then "going clean" was not the harder route.

A program that's full of underrotated/downgraded jumps, two-foot landings, and wrong-edge takeoffs is full of mistakes, albeit it often not apparent to a casual viewer that this was not a clean program.

And from an athletic point of view, which would have more impact on a sports fan watching figure skating without much knowledge?

She's setting up for the quad, it's never been landed successfully in competition by a woman under the current scoring system, and...

...oops, popped it.

...nope, played it safe, only a triple.

...yes, she goes for the rotation! Ooh, too bad she couldn't hold the landing.

 

[Ender]

Plushenko said it in his biography, so I believe this is Mishin's opinion, too:

"A figure skater has a special body. The legs are strong and the arms are thin. The centre of gravity should be down, otherwise he would not be able to make triples, quadruples and cascades."

He was the perfect example. He is a little bit tall for skater, but he was thin, sometimes I think he is too thin, he was on diet in his whole career. He has strong legs but his upper body and his arms aren't too muscular. I'm sure they didn't "forget" about those body parts. Sometimes I was thinking about it he was very consistent and he could be it not because of the mental power but because of these reasons, too. Look at his biggest opponent Joubert ( after Yagudin) was much more muscular in general..

Maybe this is not true but I find it interesting

Plushenko didn't have low center of gravity. He's quite tall for single men.

 

[bevybean]

I thought part of the reason it was easier for men to do triples and quads was because they have a higher center of gravity than women. It easier to jump higher that way and men will even get a bit of "hang time" because of the higher center of gravity.

 

[plushyfan]

Plushenko didn't have low center of gravity. He's quite tall for single men.

Yes, but that is his own words. Do you want to argue with him? And with Mishin? But he has unquestionable strong legs and thin upper body and arms

https://www.instagram.com/p/BTXi6_TB2be/ so thin!

https://www.instagram.com/p/BQiM7jZjMWw/? and https://www.instagram.com/p/BTcvxHIBbyx/? and https://www.instagram.com/p/BQ_r7mtBT1l/? and https://www.instagram.com/p/BQ7RI-phPX5/? do you see big muscles on him?

 

[dorispulaski]

AFAIR,,Re weighing skaters, this book (1995)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Girls_in_Pretty_Boxes
reported the practice as being relatively common and did not attach it to a particular coach.

 

[Barb]

An old practice? As in how old? I mean, I've seen how he works for a good few decades now, so if this is true it must be ancient.

I don´t remember where read it, that he was extremely strict about weight in the 90´s, but I don´t know, if you know him well in a few decades, I guess they were exaggerating. Tell us, How does he handle this situation with his students? Or does he not get involved in that topic at all?. And what about Marina? I am susprised that Gracie gained weight with her.

 

[Ender]

I thought part of the reason it was easier for men to do triples and quads was because they have a higher center of gravity than women. It easier to jump higher that way and men will even get a bit of "hang time" because of the higher center of gravity.

Or because men are naturally stronger with more muscles?

 

[Barb]

I thought part of the reason it was easier for men to do triples and quads was because they have a higher center of gravity than women. It easier to jump higher that way and men will even get a bit of "hang time" because of the higher center of gravity.

I doubt it, gymnasts and acrobats in general are short.

 

[Ender]

I doubt it, gymnasts and acrobats in general are short.

Exactly... look at Kohei Uchimura.

 

[plushyfan]

I doubt it, gymnasts and acrobats in general are short.

it depends on what kind of specialist is the gymnast ... for example a pommel horse specialist can be tall

 

[mrrice]

it depends on what kind of specialist is the gymnast ... for example a pommel horse specialist can be tall

Rhythmic Gymnasts are also quite tall. However, due to the difference in style, they don't have to rotate their bodies they way that skaters do. I have seen Plushy in person but, he was in skates and guards when I saw him. I am 5'10" and Plushy was definitely taller than I was. He does have very thick legs and a spectacular.....Engine. Jennifer Robinson of Canada was tall and absolutely beautiful when I saw her in person. The tallest good jumping skater that I have seen personally, is Julia Sebastian of Hungary. Evan Lysacek was quite tall and had a great career that included the OGM in 2010. I think Polina Edmunds might be the tallest US Ladies Medalist ever. Is that correct?

 

[plushyfan]

Rhythmic Gymnasts are also quite tall. However, do the difference in style, they don't have to rotate their bodies they way that skaters do. I have seen Plushy in person but, he was in skates and guards when I saw him. I am 5'10" and Plushy was definitely taller than I was. He does have very thick legs and a spectacular.....Engine. Jennifer Robinson of Canada was tall and absolutely beautiful when I saw her in person. The tallest good jumping skater that I have seen personally, is Julia Sebastian of Hungary. Evan Lysacek was quite tall and had a great career that included the OGM in 2010. I think Polina Edmunds might be the tallest US Ladies Medalist ever. Is that correct?

Yes, you are right. ( Plushy is also 5 ft 10 in or 1.78 m) Júlia Sebestyén is not tall (5 ft 5 in as Yuna Kim, too) but taller as the Russian wonder babies.

 

[skylark]

As long as it's graphic as in illustrated or whatever, and not graphic as in high-rated, I'd be interested. (sorry, I didn't go to icenetwork to check as I'm in somewhat of a hurry)

Yeah, I hadn't thought of that double meaning. It's graphic as in illustrated. The IN article showed some of the illustrations, and they looked interesting to me, like there's real storytelling in them.

The sport needs to lose the label of being effeminate and princessy, only fit for fragile ladies and tiny guys in sequins (not talking anyone specific here). And I am with CSG above on this - I enjoy variety and I think that's the way to go. I am a fan of Wagner *and* Asada, of Fernandez *and* of Uno, etc. They all work their butts off day by day, both the superslender ones and the more athletic ones, and I would be overjoyed if more awareness was being spread of just how incredibly strong all of the skaters are. The training/event preparation videos show it the best, I think, so I'm a fan of those.

I totally agree, and I think that's Ashley's intent. Seeing the photos made me realize again how much of the skaters' bodies are covered, and we don't see the muscles. But that doesn't mean that the more slender skaters have equally developed muscles. And of course Ashley has been developing her strength roughly twice as long as many of her competitors.

It's been interesting to me to read the posts here.

 

[skylark]

Yeah, sorry but I've never, ever seen Frank do this in my whole career so something seems fishy here.

Well, if it was in Linda Fratianne's interview (and now I'm pretty sure it was), she's talking about the late 70s. The whole culture has changed significantly in the way people view weight issues. I don't think I ever heard the term "anorexic" until well into the 80s.

Here's the interview, which is really a good one. I enjoyed it. She talks about all sorts of things, not just FC. Another thing I remember liking: she really takes her time answering questions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GZcRaHU4Ls

 

[skylark]

Personally, I feel that the scoring system does not factor in enough, that a fall is a missed element and therefore, kind of downgrades athletes who perform it clean. In other sports, you will lose your element and it puts athletes that go clean, above those that do not. I would like to see this being factored in also at FS, as I feel that this would boost the impact which clean programs have

I completely agree.

Just because the skater remains upright does not mean that a jump was clean.

But FS is a performance sport, after all. So many other factors are important, in addition to the technical.