Skaters/Judging experts on GS - Question

[skatinginbc]

It's not an art contest or an audience pleasing contest. Audiences who want to watch skating competitions that put art or entertainment first and technical skill second should watch a different kind of event.

a lot of CoP enthusiasts say this is a sport...but if this is first a sport, then could they somehow have the SP done with no music, with all the skaters doing exactly the same requirements?

I've said it all along: If skating is not about artistry, they should turn the music off. They can have a technical competition, which those audiences who prefer artistry or entertainment don't need to watch. It could be fun. I might watch it once in a while. I imagine it would look like a hurdle race, where several skaters race at the same time from one end of the rink to the other performing straight line footwork. Or they may draw figure patterns and mark the start points for a jump/spin on the ice. It's gonna be fun, just like dog hurdling.

 

[emma]

gkelly....thanks for all that detail about school figures and your experiences with them...so very interesting!

 

[skateluvr]

I've said it all along: If skating is not about artistry, they should turn the music off. They can have a technical competition, which those audiences who prefer artistry or entertainment don't need to watch. It could be fun. I might watch it once in a while. I imagine it would look like a hurdle race, where several skaters race at the same time from one end of the rink to the other performing straight line footwork. Or they may draw figure patterns and mark the start points for a jump/spin on the ice. It's gonna be fun, just like dog hurdling.

How cheeky you are. The tech program would only be half. But it would weed out the ones without good skills. Maybe only 18 in the world go on to the free program. Think of all the money saved in costume, music, choreography. Coaches still needed, but skating as we know it happens in the free skate. I think it could be very interesting. Golf quiet commentary, explanation throughout to tv auidence. The same thing people are hearing on earbuds in arena. I do think it could still be about athleticism/artistry but design competitions with audience appeal/understanding more in mind. Skating is always changing, Ice dance wasn't even a "sport"until the 70's. They can leave ice dance alone, but I think changes to singles and pairs would bring back audiences. There is no pro skating competition left.

There is an audience that is being neglected. If the scoring system is more accessible/understandable it will help. Those who say it is not way to much for people to grasp don't understand the state of math proficiency in America. But thanks G kelly so much for all your explanations and thinking about this. I learn so much from your posts. Are you a former skater or judge or some skaing insider? Or just Dick Button incognito! You are quite a historian!

 

[gkelly]

How cheeky you are. The tech program would only be half. But it would weed out the ones without good skills. Maybe only 18 in the world go on to the free program.

So is this plan only for Worlds? Or for all senior level competitions, including those that allow skaters to qualify for Worlds and those that stand alone?

Do these other competitions allow the top X skaters to skate a free program if they're the best X at that event? All of them if it's a small event? Same format but different top standard depending whether we're at Four Continents or Nebelhorn or the senior competition at Latvian Nationals?

Or no one ever gets to compete a free program anywhere unless they are in the top 18 in the world?

Think of all the money saved in costume, music, choreography. Coaches still needed, but skating as we know it happens in the free skate.

That sounds like you want the free skate to be accessible only to a very elite few. No point in even choreographing and practicing one unless you have already qualified to compete at Worlds and have good reason to expect you'll make the cut for the final?

There is an audience that is being neglected. If the scoring system is more accessible/understandable it will help. Those who say it is not way to much for people to grasp don't understand the state of math proficiency in America.

The math isn't that important. Understanding the kinds of skills that are being judged is where better fan education is needed IMO. In many ways I think the TV networks have done more harm than good in shaping audience's understanding of what this sport is about, at least in the US.

But thanks G kelly so much for all your explanations and thinking about this. I learn so much from your posts. Are you a former skater or judge or some skaing insider? Or just Dick Button incognito! You are quite a historian!

Ha. I'm just an adult skater, club volunteer, amateur historian, amateur advocate for understanding the sport from the inside out, etc.

 

[Mathman]

Think of all the money saved in costume, music, choreography.

But they would still have to bring a costume, just in case. They might accidentally make the cut for the free skate!

 

[skateluvr]

I mean MM, the saving in the Tech program. Basic costumes only. This means no one skates in a 13,000.00 Vera Wang and the next lady has a homemade dress. Since everyone is doing the same program, they don't need to pay the choreographer, etc. So cut the costs of elite skating 40 percent More regular folk get to play the game. In the free skate, all is allowed. Vera Wang and everything!
ETA I don't know how skating at the elite level could be smaller. I personally don't want to watch anyone who is 18th after the technical program. It would be dismal skating. In truth, unless it is someone in the US or someone I like, I honestly don't have much interest in 18-24. I don't have the time or the patience anymore. Life is too short to watch bad skating. Sometimes I wonder if those pro competitions in the late 90's where Katarina skated for the money in the same dress 4 times a season helped kill skating in general. I think the only people wanting to see this are the people who can attend Worlds and big time competition. It costs so much, I guess, people settle in.

I just had a general idea of a totally different goal for each program that would some how satisfy the sport people who want to see 3 quads from the men and the dance lovers who want to watch an Adam Rippon or Jeremy Abbott. All the particulars would be for people who actually skate/ judge. How it would all work in practice I don't know, so gkelly. All high level competitions would be set up this way. In skating in the US, the commentary has been so bad that new people must be very confused. I do not learn anything from Scott/Sandra. Actually Dick Button is pretty much the only commentator I always wanted to hear, no matter what he said.

 

[seniorita]

Gkelly, thank you about the school figures! You could write a book about History of Fs!

If I changed anything in skating it wouldnt be neither the short program, the long or the costumes because all of them I think are a part of fs we love. And I wouldnt want a competition with no music, it would kill the audience more. But I would change the levels requirements, if a pair skater didnt have to do a lift and grab their foot akwardly and look like they have lumbago, or if a skater didnt have to do a step sequence of going back and forth for a minute or spin with an orange put on their nose (level 5 spin) they would have time to be more artistic. I think this is what makes ugly programs. Yes there are skaters who do great spins and great footwork but these people would do it anyway under any rules. The rest are trying to catch up and do ex. painful donut spins and ugly step sequences to get the levels.
Or if some elements had only Goe and no levels, I can see already how the choreo sequence let some skaters do more free stuff and look like they enjoy it.

 

[gkelly]

I mean MM, the saving in the Tech program. Basic costumes only. This means no one skates in a 13,000.00 Vera Wang and the next lady has a homemade dress. Since everyone is doing the same program, they don't need to pay the choreographer, etc. So cut the costs of elite skating 40 percent

OK. But remember, if the tech program is a prechoreographed program in which everyone does exactly the same skills, it will not be the chance for the best skaters to show the hardest skills that only they can do. So the free program would be the place for the skaters who can quads or Biellmann spins or spread eagles to show their stuff.

More regular folk get to play the game. In the free skate, all is allowed. Vera Wang and everything!
ETA I don't know how skating at the elite level could be smaller. I personally don't want to watch anyone who is 18th after the technical program. It would be dismal skating.

Well, you don't have to watch them.
But the format has to allow for them to compete, and to be prepared to compete in the free program if they qualify. Which probably means skating free programs at their national competitions and fall competitions and maybe Euros/Four Continents if they can be top 18 there but only 30th at Worlds.

Even the elite skaters have to go through a period of not being one of the best before they become the best. It's not unknown for a skater to be outside the top 18 one year and on the podium the next year.

And quite often there are skaters who are wonderful to watch but who don't have the skills (e.g., 3A for men) to make top 18, or who had a bad day in the tech program.

Some fans do like to watch the larger field. And the skaters themselves want to compete, their friends and families want to watch them.

I'd rather come up with a format that maximizes participation. TV broadcasts geared toward fans who only want to watch the best don't have to show the whole event. Less-dedicated fans who attend in person can show up late, or tune in late if they're watching via a media source that does cover the whole thing.

 

[Bluebonnet]

I've said it all along: If skating is not about artistry, they should turn the music off. They can have a technical competition, which those audiences who prefer artistry or entertainment don't need to watch. It could be fun. I might watch it once in a while. I imagine it would look like a hurdle race, where several skaters race at the same time from one end of the rink to the other performing straight line footwork. Or they may draw figure patterns and mark the start points for a jump/spin on the ice. It's gonna be fun, just like dog hurdling.

I don't think anyone has ever said that skating is not about artistry. All people have said and have been continuingly saying was skating is not ALL about artistry and skating is a sport first, a special sport. Why should we choose either this or that? Can't we have both?

 

[spikydurian]

This non-skating expert wants to have her five cents worth of say.

First and foremost, thank you to gkelly for your ever patience in trying to ‘educate’ us on the fs rules. I find your comments highly valuable .
Skatelurv, I agree with Bluebonnet as to why should drastic changes should not be made to fs judging to make some fans happy. I have never heard that a certain sport is changed to make fans happy or attract fans. If non-playing fans like certain sports, they will educate themselves regarding the sport in order to enjoy the game.
I enjoy watching fs then (6.0 era) and I still enjoy watching fs now. As a non-skater, the difference then was ‘you play safe and don’t fall’ and now ‘stretch yourself to maximise points’. In fact, technically, I find the current marking system, encourages risk simply because the higher the risk, the higher gain.

As for fans who know skating well, I am certain they will have no problem in understanding the rules. If we change the rules to suit the fans we will forever be changing the rules to suit each changing generational taste. Let fs remain a sport as it is otherwise it should have no place in the Olympics as gkelly pined.

A competition where artistry is paramount and technical skill and technical content exist only to serve the artistry should not be part of Olympic-style sport. But it should exist in some form, whether under ISU control or not, because there are lots of fans and lots of skaters who prefer to focus in that direction.

Gkelly has made some good suggestions in another thread http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?36319-You-Be-the-Judge/page7 to cater to different type of fans. Personally, I would prefer to pay to watch top class competition rather than a skating show, the latter being more fun than exciting. It is just so much more interesting when athletes stretched themselves to be the best . Each time I watched the display of skills of highest level, I always get this feeling …”wow I wish I can do that too”!

I don’t understand why the decline of fs in some countries is constantly being linked to the judging rules. The reasons are more multi-faceted than just the judging rules fault. I know of some sports which declined in their country of origin. The English invented badminton, dominated the game for a while but now the top players are mainly from Asia. See link here re. possible decline of the badminton in England: http://www.badminton.me.uk/problems.html . Whilst not everything stated here is true or applicable to fs (perhaps a proper research can be conducted to as accurately pin point the slide of some sports), it always come back to the same question .... ie. how increase the no. of people interested to play and stay on to enjoy the sport for the sheer love of it? The more players the more likely a winner will emerge in future.

Unfortunately, I do think that having a ‘star power’ in the sport helps to elevate the sport in the country. Hence it becomes a vicious cycle when the country runs out of winners. I won’t be surprised if S Korea produces a Yuna-like winner in fs again in another decade.. The Yuna craze will encourage many youngsters dream of being another Yuna in making, and the Koreans have a culture of determination and excellence in whatever they set their minds on.

Enough said.. back to the experts like gkelly.

 

[mskater93]

OK. But remember, if the tech program is a prechoreographed program in which everyone does exactly the same skills, it will not be the chance for the best skaters to show the hardest skills that only they can do. So the free program would be the place for the skaters who can quads or Biellmann spins or spread eagles to show their stuff.

In the same skills technical program, will there be an accounting to "flip" the footwork over for CW skaters?

 

[gkelly]

Well, the step sequence could be designed to include each turn in both directions so that everyone has to do both their good side and bad side.

But anything leading into or out of elements would have to be flipped for people who do the elements in the other direction.

 

[mskater93]

I was thinking more along the lines of the SlSt Sequence in Junior MIF or the SeSt sequence in Senior MIF where it has to be skated in both directions.

 

[jenaj]

The judging system has hurt the sport most where it most matters from a popularity point of view--in the ladies competition. Without re-hashing all the failings of COP, I would point to two of the biggest problems--anonymous judging and de-emphasis on artistry (ie, the second mark). The audience wants and should be allowed to know which judges gave which score. It provides accountability and in many cases, explains a lot more than detailed protocols ever could. The PCS mark in COP is insufficient to reward great artistic programs which necessarily have intangible elements. The performance and interpretation marks are just two of five(?) elements that the PCS mark rewards and some of those other elements, like skating skills and transitions are really technical elements. There should be no score for choreography because it really isn't the skater's work in most instances and the score shouldn't vary from performance to performance, yet it does. If it has to do with the interpretation or performance, that is where it should be judged. Include skating skills and transitions in the technical mark. Let the judges judge. And if Speedy or others think it isn't a sport if artistry is judged, remind him that it has been an Olympic sport for over one hundred years and is the biggest draw by far in the Winter Olympics.

 

[Bluebonnet]

I think 6.0 was much more complicated to work out mathematically - certainly the final results and the flip flopping that used to occur was more baffling to the average person than a point total.

I agree. I never understood and never tried to understand 6.0. CoP is pretty much straight forward. If you want to find out the reason why this skater won over that skater, read the protocols. They are all there. Unlike 6.0 which requires extraordinary psychological penetrating into the judges' mind, CoP gets less subjective and more technical. If you are interested in figure skating that much, it is a good idea to spend sometime to study on the scoring system. Otherwise, do it like in 6.0 era.

The difference is that under CoP, there is no country given for your ranting. So you don't know where your fist should punch. As a consequence, the skater/skaters are used for the purposes. If people really need a punch bag that much, CoP should invent one, such as giving each judge a designated number or letter. No name and no country, but a specific number or letter to identify the judges. And they are kept secret which judge gets which number. So people could at least "throw eggs" to the specific number or letter. Satisfied.:yes:

 

[gkelly]

Well, if having a target at which to throw eggs is key to the sport's popularity, then the sport itself isn't all that popular.

We never know which officials to blame for results we don't like in other judged sports. I doubt that those officials are any more or less corrupt in those sports than in figure skating, but the way the scores are reported don't encourage fans to single out scapegoats.

Mostly those other judged sports aren't as popular with audiences as figure skating is, except maybe women's gymnastics in the summer Olympics. But I don't think the reason is because we don't know who to throw eggs at.

 

[Bluebonnet]

Well, if having a target at which to throw eggs is key to the sport's popularity, then the sport itself isn't all that popular.

It IS NOT that popular. Give them something for entertaining, like an imaginary target to punch on, they might be more interested in it. No target, that's all the complains about anonymous judging.

 

[gkelly]

If the skating itself doesn't attract audiences, then maybe it's not really an audience-friendly sport.

I think the reason figure skating is more popular with viewers than something like ski jumping or diving or even maybe gymnastics is because we can see the athletes' faces while they compete, and many of the moves and positions are of a sort we can imagine ourselves doing even if we don't actually have the skills needed to do so on or off ice.

And then, yes, there is the artistic component that can speak to audiences on a level mostly separate from the technical skills that make up the majority of the score.

If that alone isn't enough to interest audiences in the sport, if a fairly scored sport with judges everyone has faith in, is boring because the skating itself is boring, then maybe it's not an audience-friendly sport after all and will attract no larger audiences than those other judged sports.

For the sake of the athletes who devote their lives to getting the technique right, and in some cases enhancing the technical content with subtleties that could be considered "artistic," we want a scoring system that can best reward the skaters with the best overall mastery.

If that means no one to punch, that's just too bad for fans who would rather punch targets than enjoy the skating.

 

[Mathman]

If people really need a punch bag that much, CoP should invent one..:

I think the CoP itself has become one.

My skater didn't win? It's that darn old CoP!

 

[Bluebonnet]

I think the CoP itself has become one.

My skater didn't win? It's that darn old CoP!

True!

I'm just wondering if the people who don't like CoP are mainly from 6.0 era or mainly from the new skating fans? I suspect it's the former.