State of the U.S. Men's Figure Skating for 2014-15

[andromache]

Max's problems remind me of the old chicken and the egg question: is he being lowballed internationally because the US is holding him down or is the US holding him down because he gets lowballed internationally?

Either way, I agree that it's both sad to see him left off the teams this year and understandable, because I can't think of who should be left off in his favor.

Was he more successful internationally as a reigning US National Champion? I didn't really follow men's skating at the time, so I'm genuinely curious.

I really like Max, even if I prefer the styles of the other US men personally. It looks like we're developing a deep field, and perhaps falling short this year will push Max to further refine the other aspects of his skating.

I know in another thread that someone mentioned that Max could potentially be as successful as Kovtun if the USFSA would throw all their weight behind him as Russia does with Kovtun, but I wouldn't like to see that happen either.

 

[Meoima]

For sure if USFS throw all their weight behind Max, he might get more success. Look at his PCS mark!! Even when he did well in TES his PCS technically stayed the same.

 

[SkateSkates]

Doesn't anyone remember back when he won Nationals his PCS were hugely inflated and then came back to earth at Worlds?
I actually think the US judges reflected, albeit with inflation, the international PCS rankings of the top men this year.

 

[Mrs. P]

Here's an interesting stat: Max Aaron's personal best TES is 43.58 from 2013 Worlds doing 4S-2T, 3Z, 3Ax. Jason Brown PB in TES is 45.98 from Trophee Eric Bompard, doing 3A, 3F-3T and 3zx

Max is clearly not maximizing his tough layout.

 

[gmyers]

He doubled the toe. He made a big mistake.

 

[ice coverage]

ICYMI:

Max was sick the whole week in Greensboro. hwell:​

Am I the last to know? Just got around to watching his post-FS Athlete Lounge interview.
The whole thing is 1:07 in length. At approx. 0:14, Max says matter-of-factly (without whining) that he has been sick all week.

http://web.icenetwork.com/video/topic/107252208/v37176415​

 

[Violet Bliss]

Here's an interesting stat: Max Aaron's personal best TES is 43.58 from 2013 Worlds doing 4S-2T, 3Z, 3Ax. Jason Brown PB in TES is 45.98 from Trophee Eric Bompard, doing 3A, 3F-3T and 3zx

Max is clearly not maximizing his tough layout.

Just from the your stats here: They did the same number of revolutions. 4S-2T indicates problem with the quad and lower GOE. Of course there are other technical elements as well.

IJS does not adequately reward combos. A 3T after a quad is a lot more difficult than after a triple but they are worth the same points.

 

[iceberg]

Tara: Jason Brown always has that artistic side and gets the highest PCS but in my opinion Joshua does it better.

Johnny: Joshua's more like the Natural Artist as supposed to the choreographed artist more so like Jason.

i guess they are really not that bad commentators at all. Gosh I miss Tracey and Kurt tandem to bits!

 

[Mrs. P]

Just from the your stats here: They did the same number of revolutions. 4S-2T indicates problem with the quad and lower GOE. Of course there are other technical elements as well.

IJS does not adequately reward combos. A 3T after a quad is a lot more difficult than after a triple but they are worth the same points.

I was thinking about that. There probably needs to be a rule change regarding combo values, i.e. increasing them, but as I said, as a skater you need to do what you can to maximize your layout under those rules.

Regarding Max, I guess I was talking more from a +GOE side/level of things when I made that comment.

 

[StitchMonkey]

His first time at 4CC?

I'd imagine the best stratergy would be to follow a strategy that they themselves came up with: trying it out at lo-lev summer comps.

The problem is he can land all the quads he wants in summer comps (which is best for me on a selfish level) but he still will have to land his first in an ISU competition.

Even a senior B/Challenger skate, there will still be pressure to land his first on the grand prix (with an implied or better tacked on the end).

I would not be surprised if we see it in an exhibition first, but we would still have to see it at a major competition.

He appears to be a late season skater, so i am not sure the grand prix is a great time to try his first quad. He did his first 3A at the JGPF, so that could be a good time, but at the same time, much risk right before nationals. I don't think he would put his first quad in at the GPF right before he is about to defend his national title for the first time, likewise I don't think we will see it for the first time at nationals next year with him trying to defend.

As for next year, I suspect we will see him at Nebelhorn again so he can learn to defend, but I don't think a first quad is going to come when he is learning to defend. He likely will get Skate America again, and with Machida out, he is in a very similar learning to defend role as likely will be the highest ranked returning skater. Under Miss Universe rules, he would sorta be the defending champion as the winner did not complete their reign. So I don't think we would see a first one there. So that leaves one grand prix next season we could see it. . . meh.

Four continents is not that big in the USA, at least compared to Europeans. His doing poorly there with a potential botched quad attempt would be less noticeable, or upsetting to the powers that be. Also, with 4Cs countries always get 3 spots, so there are no spots on the line. Frankly that is why Adam is there, he can try as many quad lutzs as he wants and it will not matter if he comes in last, we still have 3 spots next year. So there is not a lot of risk to trying stuff at 4Cs. You are not playing with spots for your country, so that makes it in my eyes a good time to experiment.

If he tries a quad there, he either send the clear message that there is a reason he does not, so lay off and appreciate a well done quadless program of redemption at worlds. Or he lands it and may actually manage a win. No one loses spots, no one else is hurt, the USA does not seem to suffer reputationally, and then he is set up knowing what he needs to know for worlds. Heck, even next year 4Cs could be a good first attempt option after low level summer comps.

 

[Violet Bliss]

I was thinking about that. There probably needs to be a rule change regarding combo values, i.e. increasing them, but as I said, as a skater you need to do what you can to maximize your layout under those rules.

Regarding Max, I guess I was talking more from a +GOE side/level of things when I made that comment.

Not only are combos not given credits reflecting their level of difficulty, the GOE points for a well executed combo are only equivalent to those for one jump, yet they are reduced for any flaw on any of the jumps. It's a high level, high risk, low reward, and high penalty element.

 

[Hyena]

I would love to see Jason do a quad at 4CCs in two weeks, but he probably won't. Even if they felt the quad was ready, he would have very little time to practice the new layout.

 

[StitchMonkey]

I was thinking about that. There probably needs to be a rule change regarding combo values, i.e. increasing them, but as I said, as a skater you need to do what you can to maximize your layout under those rules.

Regarding Max, I guess I was talking more from a +GOE side/level of things when I made that comment.

I think one way to deal with this would be to have different values for jumps on their own, or when they are done as the second jump of a combination. I.e. a 3T+3T could have different values for each jump. Make a +3T worth more than just a 3T. Same with loop (and possibly even Salchow or Flip really). This way they could lower the value of the 3T alone but raise the value of the +3T thus making it more worth it to go for something other than a 3T+3T. Likewise if they raised the value of the +3Loop, we might start seeing it more often attempted, as it might be worth it. You don't have to raise the value of a loop on it's own, but could raise the value of it as the second jump in a combination.

Max's 4S+2T is another example. With a little massaging of values, they could make a quad double worth it without other stuff becoming imbalanced. I like quad doubles and would like it if they were a bit more worth it. They could easily make the +2T worth more than a normal 2T.

 

[TMC]

The problem is he can land all the quads he wants in summer comps (which is best for me on a selfish level) but he still will have to land his first in an ISU competition.

Of course. I'm sure the team knows and understands this.

Even a senior B/Challenger skate, there will still be pressure to land his first on the grand prix (with an implied or better tacked on the end).

I would not be surprised if we see it in an exhibition first, but we would still have to see it at a major competition.

When he gets it we will see it in every major competition. Their strategy is to add it when there is the least danger of its compromising the integrity the program.

He appears to be a late season skater, so i am not sure the grand prix is a great time to try his first quad. He did his first 3A at the JGPF, so that could be a good time, but at the same time, much risk right before nationals. I don't think he would put his first quad in at the GPF right before he is about to defend his national title for the first time, likewise I don't think we will see it for the first time at nationals next year with him trying to defend.

As for next year, I suspect we will see him at Nebelhorn again so he can learn to defend, but I don't think a first quad is going to come when he is learning to defend. He likely will get Skate America again, and with Machida out, he is in a very similar learning to defend role as likely will be the highest ranked returning skater. Under Miss Universe rules, he would sorta be the defending champion as the winner did not complete their reign. So I don't think we would see a first one there. So that leaves one grand prix next season we could see it. . . meh.

We can speculate, but we have no way of knowing when he's going to try it - at the moment they say summer comps, but if it's not going well by then, we may not see it for another year. Or two. Who knows?

Four continents is not that big in the USA, at least compared to Europeans. His doing poorly there with a potential botched quad attempt would be less noticeable, or upsetting to the powers that be. Also, with 4Cs countries always get 3 spots, so there are no spots on the line. Frankly that is why Adam is there, he can try as many quad lutzs as he wants and it will not matter if he comes in last, we still have 3 spots next year. So there is not a lot of risk to trying stuff at 4Cs. You are not playing with spots for your country, so that makes it in my eyes a good time to experiment.

Won't 4CC scores affect his WR going into Worlds, though?

If he tries a quad there, he either send the clear message that there is a reason he does not, so lay off and appreciate a well done quadless program of redemption at worlds. Or he lands it and may actually manage a win. No one loses spots, no one else is hurt, the USA does not seem to suffer reputationally, and then he is set up knowing what he needs to know for worlds. Heck, even next year 4Cs could be a good first attempt option after low level summer comps.

I actually don't think they care too much about the constant quad questioning, so they don't have the need to send a message like that. They got used to this during the 3.5 years it took him to find his 3A. They seem level-headed people who know what they're doing and they appear to be able just to "shake it off".

As for the USA suffering reputationally...well Jason is currently, without a quad, the number one US Man internationally as well as nationally.

If one wants to assume that poor/quadless outings at ISU competitions by US men damage the reputation of the country/fed, Jason will likely only be guilty of not having a quad, less likely of giving a poor performance. Based on his track record this past season compared to others, he is still your best bet going into Worlds. Even though he made multiple mistakes and had some uncharacteristically poor performances, he still came out on top.

When I think about SA I can see why they want to be absolutely sure. Those falls were new to him (his 3A had been very consistent between JRW13 and SA) and clearly affected his performance. He, being who he is, took it as a positive thing: now I know what it's like to really mess up in a really high-pressure situation at the Senior level, and I can deal with it and learn from it. That was only a few months ago. I would like to see him experience the pressure of Worlds feeling confident in his skills. After Worlds, he has experienced all the most stressful competitions except for the GPF. They won't be new to him next year. That might make the summer/early autumn the ideal time to start quadding.

 

[karne]

ICYMI:

Max was sick the whole week in Greensboro. hwell:​

Am I the last to know? Just got around to watching his post-FS Athlete Lounge interview.
The whole thing is 1:07 in length. At approx. 0:14, Max says matter-of-factly (without whining) that he has been sick all week.

http://web.icenetwork.com/video/topic/107252208/v37176415​

You're not the last to know. I had no idea until you posted this - I haven't seen any of the post LP interviews.

I'm not sure whether to be that he was sick or :shocked: that he absolutely nailed that LP while he was sick!

(But this does suddenly explain the death.)

 

[StitchMonkey]

TMC


I want to clarify that I think 4C is a good time, regardless of the year. 4Cs next year, I still think would be better than than GPF or Nationals, or Nebelhorn or Skate America. In general it is a good time to try stuff for everyone including but not limited to Jason.

The funny thing is, I was actually talking about how a failed quad could be the reputation damage. I don't find a clean no quad program a problem. I would however be annoyed at seeing Jason try a quad, fall, and miss the GPF again when a clean no quad program could have gotten him there. And to be honest, I am not sure his team would want to be in that position. Honestly i think going safe and clean and making the GPF is a very high priority for them this next season. And in some ways it should be.

If he does not this year, I really don't care, nor will i be disappointed. I do however feel that if they were thinking of doing it at worlds (something I actually think might have been a plan of theirs) he should do it at 4Cs first. The reason being is I have come over a bit to the side of don't take risks like that when spots are on the line. Basically, I am not sure I think world's is the right place to try to land something for the first time. If his team is still thinking worlds is a maybe well, I kinda think they should rethink that a bit.

I think 4Cs could be where we still it from him from the first time, but I am not saying what year I think it is we will see it. Even if we don't see it this year (no I am not expecting it, but who knows) I still think 4Cs next year could be where we see it happen.

 

[Mrs. P]

Jason Brown and Joshua Farris: Switching podium placements since 2008.
https://twitter.com/Max_Settlage/status/560141452957589504

Max Settlage
‏@Max_Settlage
Look at this gold nugget that I found on the internet, @joshDfarris @jasonbskates @HarrisonChoate Circa 2008 JNs lol

This is U.S. Junior National championships, Intermediate level: Josh was 1st, Jason was 2nd. The bronze medalist is Jay Yostano.

From there:

2009: U.S. Nationals Novice: Josh, 1st; Jason 3rd
2010: U.S. Nationals Junior: Jason 1st; Josh 2nd
2011: JGPF Junior: Jason 1st; Josh 3rd
2012: Junior Worlds: Josh 2nd, Jason 3rd
2013: Junior Worlds: Josh 1st, Jason 2nd
2014: U.S. Nationals Senior: Jason 2nd, Josh 4th
2015: U.S. Nationals Senior: Jason 1st, Josh 3rd.

Josh is due to beat Jason on their next podium placement.

 

[ice coverage]

Abbott pays tribute to late father at Greensboro gala
Four-time U.S. champion mum on his skating future after missing worlds

Posted 1/27/15
by Lynn Rutherford, special to icenetwork
http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2015/01/27/107618518​

Sounds like a lovely and emotional tribute to his father.

 

[TMC]

TMC


I want to clarify that I think 4C is a good time, regardless of the year. 4Cs next year, I still think would be better than than GPF or Nationals, or Nebelhorn or Skate America. In general it is a good time to try stuff for everyone including but not limited to Jason.

The funny thing is, I was actually talking about how a failed quad could be the reputation damage. I don't find a clean no quad program a problem. I would however be annoyed at seeing Jason try a quad, fall, and miss the GPF again when a clean no quad program could have gotten him there. And to be honest, I am not sure his team would want to be in that position. Honestly i think going safe and clean and making the GPF is a very high priority for them this next season. And in some ways it should be.

If he does not this year, I really don't care, nor will i be disappointed. I do however feel that if they were thinking of doing it at worlds (something I actually think might have been a plan of theirs) he should do it at 4Cs first. The reason being is I have come over a bit to the side of don't take risks like that when spots are on the line. Basically, I am not sure I think world's is the right place to try to land something for the first time. If his team is still thinking worlds is a maybe well, I kinda think they should rethink that a bit.

I think 4Cs could be where we still it from him from the first time, but I am not saying what year I think it is we will see it. Even if we don't see it this year (no I am not expecting it, but who knows) I still think 4Cs next year could be where we see it happen.

Ah, okay I understand what you were saying better now! Sorry if I came across a bit cranky - I'm just pretty finished with the quad speculation at the moment and I took your comment about reputation damage to mean worse than you actually did. I've been reading the craziest stuff on Twitter these past two days where everything that is wrong with the world seems to stem from Jason's lack of quad. I hope you understand & forgive me if I offended you in any way - it was not my intention

I do still think that this is an issue that the team spends a lot of time thinking about and strategising about. And that they will find the best way and the best time for it to happen, whenever and whereever it may be. For sure I would be terrified if they announced that it was going to come out at these Worlds for the first time. You're right, 4CC would be much, much better. But only for my sanity because while I truly believe that they will not add it -and will refuse to be pressured into adding it -before they're 100% sure it's time, I'd still be more comfortable if there was less to lose in the situation.

There was talk before nationals that he would possibly try the quad if he got to go to Worlds, but that changed into summer comps I believe even before the free skate. Makes me think it was because it wasn't going too well in practice between the SP and the LP. They talked about this in the Icenetwork wrapup, how he was training quads because the energy at Nationals was different and it was a good chance to get used to doing them away from home. That's probably when they noticed that it was too early still.

 

[TMC]

Jason Brown and Joshua Farris: Switching podium placements since 2008.
https://twitter.com/Max_Settlage/status/560141452957589504

Max Settlage
‏@Max_Settlage
Look at this gold nugget that I found on the internet, @joshDfarris @jasonbskates @HarrisonChoate Circa 2008 JNs lol

This is U.S. Junior National championships, Intermediate level: Josh was 1st, Jason was 2nd. The bronze medalist is Jay Yostano.

From there:

2009: U.S. Nationals Novice: Josh, 1st; Jason 3rd
2010: U.S. Nationals Junior: Jason 1st; Josh 2nd
2011: JGPF Junior: Jason 1st; Josh 3rd
2012: Junior Worlds: Josh 2nd, Jason 3rd
2013: Junior Worlds: Josh 1st, Jason 2nd
2014: U.S. Nationals Senior: Jason 2nd, Josh 4th
2015: U.S. Nationals Senior: Jason 1st, Josh 3rd.

Josh is due to beat Jason on their next podium placement.

Not if Jason gets the Platinum Medal!!!