State of US Ladies in skating III: 2014-15 Season

[samson]

Yeah as long as we don't get subjected to a broadway medley for Gracie. What about something like the music Michelle used for the fall of 2000?

Here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXQiSkJgtno

 

[kwanatic]

Yeah as long as we don't get subjected to a broadway medley for Gracie. What about something like the music Michelle used for the fall of 2000?

Here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXQiSkJgtno

Oh, I looooved that SP! I hate that she didn't use it more. Great choreography and I loved the music.

Call me crazy but I'd actually like to see Gracie do something with "Chicago." I know it's part of the warhorse must die group but I think that would be interesting to see her skate to, especially b/c of the allowance of lyrics. I just want to see her looking like she's genuinely enjoying what she's skating to. I think if she really got into the music it would help her to relax and relate to the music more.

 

[skateluvr]

Gracie is musical. She isn't wagner yet but she is really lovely. I get so tired of this non connection to music. She can skate to most anything.

 

[FSGMT]

Gracie mentioned in her press conference that she's tried 4s before and if she were to train a quad, it would most likely be Salchow. Most females who have ever trained a quad did the salchow.

Yeah, with tons of < and << everywhere :hopelessness:

 

[Sandpiper]

Agreed. It's b/c she's been winning and her PCS have jumped significantly. Liza has improved her ice coverage (it used to be flat out awful) and she does have decent speed but to be honest, overall, I think Satoko, Elena and Gracie have better SS than Liza. Elena and Satoko definitely have better TR as well. Again this is a case of the PCS reflecting the skater's position in the standings rather than what they actually do on the ice. :disapp:

Gracie has better SS than Liza, true. I wouldn't say Elena does though. Satoko... I think I'm just no longer qualified to decide on her. I hear a lot about her wonderful basics, and I'm sure they're there... yet when I watch her, her SS don't seem that apparent to me. Not compared to Gracie's, which are really obvious. (Keep in mind I like Satoko, and I do think she's underscored in PCS as a whole--I just think more in terms of TR, INT, CH).

As for transitions, Liza doesn't have the transitions into her jumps like Elena or Satoko. But she does have transitions out of her jumps, which few skaters do, because they don't have the flow and control on the landing. Anyway, Elena generally does get higher TR marks than Liza; the only exception is Worlds (where Liza got the 3A boost and the Worlds judging panel seemed not-so-enamoured with Elena for some reason... I don't agree with this, but I wouldn't say it's a season-long problem).

Re: the triple axel...there aren't too many US ladies I could see doing one. Ashley, Gracie and Polina all have dicey/weak axel technique. Mirai has excellent axel technique (good lift, height and distance) but I don't think she's capable of rotating fast enough.

I'm afraid any 3A by Mirai is going to get < or <<. This goes double at high-pressure events, where she'd likely get tight and revert to old habits (like Ashley did at Worlds).

 

[Globetrotter]

Gracie has better SS than Liza, true. I wouldn't say Elena does though. Satoko... I think I'm just no longer qualified to decide on her. I hear a lot about her wonderful basics, and I'm sure they're there... yet when I watch her, her SS don't seem that apparent to me. Not compared to Gracie's, which are really obvious. (Keep in mind I like Satoko, and I do think she's underscored in PCS as a whole--I just think more in terms of TR, INT, CH).

As for transitions, Liza doesn't have the transitions into her jumps like Elena or Satoko. But she does have transitions out of her jumps, which few skaters do, because they don't have the flow and control on the landing. Anyway, Elena generally does get higher TR marks than Liza; the only exception is Worlds (where Liza got the 3A boost and the Worlds judging panel seemed not-so-enamoured with Elena for some reason... I don't agree with this, but I wouldn't say it's a season-long problem).

I think Satoko's issue is that she does not appear to cover much ice on TV, possibly as she is much smaller but her edge work is really quite good. I will say that among the current crop of ladies, only gracie Gold is stronger. In fact, I might as well say that Gracie has the best SS of the lot. I do agree with you though that Liza Tuks SS is probably better than Lena Radio - she skates smoother. I know TR is where it is ambiguous - Lena has better transitions pre-jump but her flow out of jumps are quite bleh while Tuks has the best flow of of jumps outside Caro Kostner. Lena's TR was lower than Tuks at World but it was quite clear that she was not skating as well as her earlier competitions and several landings were really shaky, with even poorer out flow than usual. I wouldn't say it was due to the boost from Tuks 3A, but rather Lena's illness simply had an impact on her skate and TR. Even her usual exuberant spark was subdued and she received lower PE than she normally does - not at all surprising considering that Lena scores well in PE by using her big extroverted personality.

Pity about the 3A. I don't see any of the current US and most of the Russian ladies ever going to be able to hit it when their 2A techniques are all mediocre. The possible exception I can think of will be Ade Sots who has the jump height and the power, just needs some further control. The juniors Wakaba Higuchi and Karen Chen both also look like they have the technique and the strength to be able to squeeze out the 3.5 revolution. Hopefully Liza Tuks attempt will be a good incentive for more of them to push the technical edge.

 

[kwanatic]

I'd say Elena's SS are slightly above Liza T but not by too much. She has excellent blade control which is why she's able to add so many transitions between her elements, and she's able to generate her speed without doing a ton of crossovers, though I'd guess that fits into TR as well. Elena doesn't have as many transitions out of her jumps (except the illusion after her 3F which I really like), but she does a good job of transitioning up into her jumps without protracted pauses. That's something the US women need to work on...

Gracie has great speed, flow and acceleration across the ice but I think she could have better use of her edges. She's definitely at the top of the US women in terms of SS but I think Karen Chen may surpass her in another year or two. Karen has incredible speed and flow and I think she gets deeper into her edges than Gracie does. I'm really crossing my fingers she makes it through puberty without falling off. She's a gifted skater that's for sure.

 

[Sandpiper]

I think Satoko's issue is that she does not appear to cover much ice on TV, possibly as she is much smaller but her edge work is really quite good. I will say that among the current crop of ladies, only gracie Gold is stronger. In fact, I might as well say that Gracie has the best SS of the lot. I do agree with you though that Liza Tuks SS is probably better than Lena Radio - she skates smoother. I know TR is where it is ambiguous - Lena has better transitions pre-jump but her flow out of jumps are quite bleh while Tuks has the best flow of of jumps outside Caro Kostner. Lena's TR was lower than Tuks at World but it was quite clear that she was not skating as well as her earlier competitions and several landings were really shaky, with even poorer out flow than usual. I wouldn't say it was due to the boost from Tuks 3A, but rather Lena's illness simply had an impact on her skate and TR. Even her usual exuberant spark was subdued and she received lower PE than she normally does - not at all surprising considering that Lena scores well in PE by using her big extroverted personality.

Very possible, what you said about Satoko. She does seem to skate "fast," but somehow doesn't skate "big." Perhaps she just doesn't yet have the maturity, command, or presence (which someone like Ashley Wagner--despite having weaker SS and being a fairly small person herself--does possess). It's not just a matter of physical size, since I love the pairs team Sui/Han, and their heights never bother me even though they're the smallest team in the field.

Lena did lack the spark she had at Europeans or even GPF (yes, even with a fall!), but I thought that would simply affect her P/E and INT marks. It didn't seem right that it affected her TR mark too. I guess it's a case of "overall impression." Since Lena's strongest asset is her performance ability, when that goes down even slightly, every mark gets affected in the judges' eyes.

 

[Globetrotter]

Very possible, what you said about Satoko. She does seem to skate "fast," but somehow doesn't skate "big." Perhaps she just doesn't yet have the maturity, command, or presence (which someone like Ashley Wagner--despite having weaker SS and being a fairly small person herself--does possess). It's not just a matter of physical size, since I love the pairs team Sui/Han, and their heights never bother me even though they're the smallest team in the field.

Lena did lack the spark she had at Europeans or even GPF (yes, even with a fall!), but I thought that would simply affect her P/E and INT marks. It didn't seem right that it affected her TR mark too. I guess it's a case of "overall impression." Since Lena's strongest asset is her performance ability, when that goes down even slightly, every mark gets affected in the judges' eyes.

That is a really interesting point. Most time, I tend to think of SS in terms of ease of speed, deep edge work and control and balance. Ice coverage is generally affected by these but yes, the energy and presence does also impact on the impression of presence. I have always thought that Wagner was overscored on SS (weak edges and relatively mediocre blade work) but underscored on PE /IN but perhaps that presence does help. I guess that is why someone like Caro Kostner who has probably the best edges also scores consistently high on SS as her statuesque form also gives her big presence on the ice.

I personally love Lena Radio a lot. She is raw and unpolished, definitely not the classical artist but you just can't helped being drawn to her spark and big personality and she has a natural ability to draw audience into her performance. She does not use carriage and beautiful lines or innate musicality but rather her own big personality is her greatest PE asset. Unfortunately at Worlds, she was ill, her usual spark was dampened. She has good TR into jumps but generally less flow out and her landings were shakier than usual at worlds with even poorer TR. Coupled with low poorer PE, the whole impression just went down a notch. Seems like only a healthy happy Lena will receive high PCS.

 

[Sandpiper]

That is a really interesting point. Most time, I tend to think of SS in terms of ease of speed, deep edge work and control and balance. Ice coverage is generally affected by these but yes, the energy and presence does also impact on the impression of presence. I have always thought that Wagner was overscored on SS (weak edges and relatively mediocre blade work) but underscored on PE /IN but perhaps that presence does help. I guess that is why someone like Caro Kostner who has probably the best edges also scores consistently high on SS as her statuesque form also gives her big presence on the ice.

I personally love Lena Radio a lot. She is raw and unpolished, definitely not the classical artist but you just can't helped being drawn to her spark and big personality and she has a natural ability to draw audience into her performance. She does not use carriage and beautiful lines or innate musicality but rather her own big personality is her greatest PE asset. Unfortunately at Worlds, she was ill, her usual spark was dampened. She has good TR into jumps but generally less flow out and her landings were shakier than usual at worlds with even poorer TR. Coupled with low poorer PE, the whole impression just went down a notch. Seems like only a healthy happy Lena will receive high PCS.

Interesting. I think what you said about Lena applies to Ashley too. When she skates like her Nationals LP, I'd definitely give her strong PCS--yes, she has weaker SS than the other top skaters, but not enough to be distracting or to take away from the impact of her performance. However, in the Worlds SP, when the jumps failed and she didn't give her trademark Diva Wagner performance either... her weaknesses all came to the forefront. I dunno if her SS just looked worse without the performance to fall back on, or if she truly displayed weaker SS at Worlds (possible, since skaters may slow down or get choppy if they're having an off day).

Whereas with someone like Gracie Gold, I didn't see a huge difference PCS-wise between her terrible SP and near-clean SP. Great SS in both, not a lot of performance in either. I guess a little more P/E due to the "execution" part. A bit more TR since her LP has better transitions, and she wasn't transitioning into failed elements. INT, CH? About the same either way.

 

[TryMeLater]

Interesting. I think what you said about Lena applies to Ashley too. When she skates like her Nationals LP, I'd definitely give her strong PCS--yes, she has weaker SS than the other top skaters, but not enough to be distracting or to take away from the impact of her performance. However, in the Worlds SP, when the jumps failed and she didn't give her trademark Diva Wagner performance either... her weaknesses all came to the forefront. I dunno if her SS just looked worse without the performance to fall back on, or if she truly displayed weaker SS at Worlds (possible, since skaters may slow down or get choppy if they're having an off day).

Whereas with someone like Gracie Gold, I didn't see a huge difference PCS-wise between her terrible SP and near-clean SP. Great SS in both, not a lot of performance in either. I guess a little more P/E due to the "execution" part. A bit more TR since her LP has better transitions, and she wasn't transitioning into failed elements. INT, CH? About the same either way.

A good clean solid skate will get good if not great PCS. Just look at Sotnikova at the Olympics, and even Yuna in 2013 and 2010.
Wagner is among the very few lady skaters right now that actually skates like a woman and not a toddler (or Pwetty Princess)-She has character.
Mastering the Artistry or PCS takes years and mastering them in a way that falls won't hurt them (a la Kostner) takes even longer.

 

[Layback11]

This is some pretty deep stuff. Am I the only one who feels unqualified to post on this? I'm really bad at analyzing footwork, but I did notice in the IN article that Gracie was one of the only skaters to get level 4 on a step sequence in the worlds SP, so that's gotta say something about her SS.

 

[Sandpiper]

This is some pretty deep stuff. Am I the only one who feels unqualified to post on this? I'm really bad at analyzing footwork, but I did notice in the IN article that Gracie was one of the only skaters to get level 4 on a step sequence in the worlds SP, so that's gotta say something about her SS.

Actually, many people received Level 4s in the SP: Liza, Elena, Satoko, Rika, Kanako, Zijun... Even though they mostly received Level 3s in other competitions. I think it was just a rather lenient panel in terms of levels.

Ashley and Polina did "only" receive Level 3, but Ashley was really off her game that night (in addition to SS being her weakest component), and Polina seems to struggle with StSq levels in general (she actually got Level 1s and 2s in the GP).

 

[Miss Ice]

Gracie has great speed, flow and acceleration across the ice but I think she could have better use of her edges. She's definitely at the top of the US women in terms of SS but I think Karen Chen may surpass her in another year or two. Karen has incredible speed and flow and I think she gets deeper into her edges than Gracie does. I'm really crossing my fingers she makes it through puberty without falling off. She's a gifted skater that's for sure.

Mhm. Totally agree with this. Besides Gracie (if she ever gets over her nerves) and Karen (who is yet to be tested), there is some promising young talent there in the Novice ladies field.

Regarding the 3A - I don't care much about it. When 3A is in the game, I feel like it becomes a jumping contest more than anything else. I know there are some skaters who were artistic and stuff and had 3A, but overall it has a so-so success rate, high injury rate, etc... I just hope that the benefits outweigh the losses for whoever practices it.

Also, this is US Ladies guys. US Ladies. Again, US. I am sure it's fine if you are comparing US ladies to any other ladies (i.e. Russian) but if you are going on about Russian ladies and comparing them between themselves... please bring it to the State of Russian Ladies thread, thank you.

 

[unico]

I'd say Elena's SS are slightly above Liza T but not by too much. She has excellent blade control which is why she's able to add so many transitions between her elements, and she's able to generate her speed without doing a ton of crossovers, though I'd guess that fits into TR as well. Elena doesn't have as many transitions out of her jumps (except the illusion after her 3F which I really like), but she does a good job of transitioning up into her jumps without protracted pauses. That's something the US women need to work on...

Gracie has great speed, flow and acceleration across the ice but I think she could have better use of her edges. She's definitely at the top of the US women in terms of SS but I think Karen Chen may surpass her in another year or two. Karen has incredible speed and flow and I think she gets deeper into her edges than Gracie does. I'm really crossing my fingers she makes it through puberty without falling off. She's a gifted skater that's for sure.

I agree with all of this. Tuktamysheva has the best flow out of her jumps in the field, but if you see her skate live.... IMO she really needs to work on her speed, ice coverage, edges, and overall 'big'-ness to her skating, yes, even compared to Radionova. And that's with Radionova still having more numerous and more difficult/varied transitions.

Gold's edges and kneebend can use some work, but I too would place her on the top of the pile of US ladies. Chen seems like a little speed demon that skates quite deep, and jumps so big. I'm really excited for her development. When she's on, like at Nationals, I find her the most engaging of the entire lot, but that mostly just my stylistic preference. I would place my bets on Gold to medal on the world stage first, she just needs the right material that she can perform to and that will hopefully feel more at ease during competitions. The judges have shown they're willing to put her up there if she hits.

 

[jagragold]

Amber Glenn might be THE surprise next year.

 

[LyraAngelica]

Amber Glenn might be THE surprise next year.

I hope the surprise next year is the US women putting two great skates together when it matters. It's hard watching them be so mediocre but it's been that way for YEARS now.

 

[R.D.]

I hope the surprise next year is the US women putting two great skates together when it matters.

That would be a surprise indeed

 

[kwanatic]

Amber Glenn might be THE surprise next year.

Amber has all of the goods to be a threat: diffcult jumps, nice on ice personality, good spins, etc. but she is SUCH a jittery ball of nerves when she skates. She (like so many of the US girls) psychs herself out and ends up crumbling to pieces under the pressure. I hope she gained a lot of experience from competing this year and she'll be better prepared next year.

There are SO many US skaters that can really make a splash if they apply themselves:

- Amber Glenn: as mentioned above
- Karen Chen: as mentioned up-thread; she just needs to find consistentency
- Tyler Pierce: great jumps, gorgeous spins...I think she could surprise people in another year or two
- Angela Wang: textbook jumps, gorgeous flow, smooth style and lovely presentation
- Leah Keiser: great jumps, lovely look on the ice, has the ability to be more than what she puts out
- Mariah Bell: I adore her personality and she's a wonderful skater, but she'll need to up her content to be competitive.

Lots of talent in the US...we just need that one skater with the right mix of of qualities to emerge...

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I hope Courtney Hicks can get a little love next year.

https://instagram.com/p/1Rd_mfl9o3/

3f-1lo-3s done at maximum velocity