State of US Ladies in skating III: 2014-15 Season

[Sam-Skwantch]

I don't mean to be rude or anything, but who's Mallory King? I actually googled her and all I got was someone else....

Mallory King is a fictitious skater that people would make up goofy stories about.

http://mkforum.net/forum/showthread.php?164-What-is-Mallory-King-up-to-these-days

 

[sunnystars]

Oh I see...
omg that thread it's quite interesting and entertaining...k I just bookmarked it
I'll continue to read Mallory's skating adventures

 

[samson]

Mallory King is a national treasure. I hear she's receiving a Kennedy Center Honor this year.

Also I just had a vision of what a Kennedy Center Honor to Michelle Kwan would be like and my water just broke.

 

[Icey]

This thread... We get it people. We all have our own opinions of who is the number 1 lady right now. Debating back and forth with little tidbits of information accomplishes nothing.

It accomplishes what a forum exists for: to allow people to state their opinions and provide what they consider supporting evidence.


Sadly, Ashley has imo regressed or, at best, stood still. I recently looked at some videos from the beginnings of her international career, including the ones linked below.. She continues to have some of the problems she had then. Coaching changes have not resulted in any significant gains, once again imo.

http://www.veoh.com/watch/v1485031rmrhxgD6?h1=Ashley+WAGNER+-+2007+TEB+SP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGz3ffe5FKs

 

[fallingsk8er]

I think Ashley is a better skater than ever. She has confidence, sex appeal, maturity, and can sell a program even when it has mistakes. She'll be fine once the season gets rolling. I liked her program and I think it will be great once she practices it more and nails the jumps.

 

[aromaticchicken]

I am a fan of all of the top contenders right now in the US, ranging from gold, Edmunds, Wagner, nagasu, and cesario. For all of the Wagner naysayers, I would love to see her go out and excel at her GPs this season like she has in the past couple years. She's a fighter and I hope puts these skeptics in line

 

[fallingsk8er]

I agree, aromaticchicken.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Sadly, Ashley has imo regressed or, at best, stood still. I recently looked at some videos from the beginnings of her international career, including the ones linked below.. She continues to have some of the problems she had then. Coaching changes have not resulted in any significant gains, once again imo.

She probably isn't a lot better than she was before her breakout season, but it just goes to show how small the margin is between being the top skater in your country and one not good enough to make the world or Olympic team. During Ashley's two best seasons, 11/12 and 12/13, she was far more consistent than previous years and as a result her PCS scores were lifted considerably, much like how Julia's PCS scores skyrocketed as a result of numerous solid skates last season. Ashley has maintained her PCS advantage over skaters like Mirai, although she will have to start skating better to maintain her edge.

 

[mrrice]

I think Ashley is a better skater than ever. She has confidence, sex appeal, maturity, and can sell a program even when it has mistakes. She'll be fine once the season gets rolling. I liked her program and I think it will be great once she practices it more and nails the jumps.

I agree 100%. Ashley is beautiful and if you don't think that has an effect on how certain judges see her, you're mistaken. She sets a mood and even with mistakes, she stays with it through her programs. if she plays flirt, she flirts with the judges. Whether she plays a princess or a swan, she stays in character and internationally, she does very well. She has done very well on the GP for the last two seasons and that keeps her in judges minds as someone to look for.

 

[Jammers]

I think Ashley is a better skater than ever. She has confidence, sex appeal, maturity, and can sell a program even when it has mistakes. She'll be fine once the season gets rolling. I liked her program and I think it will be great once she practices it more and nails the jumps.

Ashley is not better then ever as a skater. Yes she sells a program better then most anyone else but her jumps are regressing and her spins are not at a top level compared to the Russian girls or Gracie. Judges are looking to dump Ashley if she doesn't skate well this GP season. I think Ashley will compete through the 2016 season when Worlds are in Boston then call it a career because i can't see her making the Olympic team in 2018 and if she did then that means the US is still in a major slump.

 

[LiamForeman]

Ashley is not better then ever as a skater. Yes she sells a program better then most anyone else but her jumps are regressing and her spins are not at a top level compared to the Russian girls or Gracie. Judges are looking to dump Ashley if she doesn't skate well this GP season. I think Ashley will compete through the 2016 season when Worlds are in Boston then call it a career because i can't see her making the Olympic team in 2018 and if she did then that means the US is still in a major slump.

Well, depends on your idea of what better means. If it is jumps and spins, no she's not. But she cuts a compelling figure to watch on the ice. She's the anti-Mirai in that she starts in character and doesn't give up throughout. I also wonder what her motivations are to continue. Maybe she feels she can make a better living off of GPs and amateur skating?

 

[mrrice]

Ashley is not better then ever as a skater. Yes she sells a program better then most anyone else but her jumps are regressing and her spins are not at a top level compared to the Russian girls or Gracie. Judges are looking to dump Ashley if she doesn't skate well this GP season. I think Ashley will compete through the 2016 season when Worlds are in Boston then call it a career because i can't see her making the Olympic team in 2018 and if she did then that means the US is still in a major slump.

Well kind of......Gracie is great but she hasn't exactly set the GP on fire. Ashley is a fighter and judges know, and appreciate it. I think judges only " Dump " skaters who don't work hard. Judges didn't dump Carolina Kostner even though many people thought she was past her prime. Ashley is definitely not done and if she fights hard, why would anyone dump her.

 

[tulosai]

Well kind of......Gracie is great but she hasn't exactly set the GP on fire. Ashley is a fighter and judges know, and appreciate it. I think judges only " Dump " skaters who don't work hard. Judges didn't dump Carolina Kostner even though many people thought she was past her prime. Ashley is definitely not done and if she fights hard, why would anyone dump her.

I'm sorry, but Carolina and Ashley are definitely not in the same class. I'd put very few people in the same class as Carolina, so this is no particular diss to Ashley, but I think almost all skating fans would agree with me. Moreover, there was not really anyone to 'dump' Carolina for. She was the only truly viable skater from Italy, whereas there are at least a half dozen Americans that could beat Ashley on a good day for them and a poor one for her- Mirai just did so, we know for a fact Gracie can do so, Polina did so at nationals and could certainly do so again, etc.

 

[Mrs. P]

I'm sorry, but Carolina and Ashley are definitely not in the same class. I'd put very few people in the same class as Carolina, so this is no particular diss to Ashley, but I think almost all skating fans would agree with me. Moreover, there was not really anyone to 'dump' Carolina for. She was the only truly viable skater from Italy, whereas there are at least a half dozen Americans that could beat Ashley on a good day for them and a poor one for her- Mirai just did so, we know for a fact Gracie can do so, Polina did so at nationals and could certainly do so again, etc.

Another key difference between Carolina and Ashley, is that Carolina was a two-time World medalist (and Euro champion) before she had her meltdown in 2009 and 2010.

Ashley's story could perhaps be more comparable to Akiko Suzuki, who managed to sneak in a world medal in 2012 at the age of 27. But then again, Akiko didn't have the slew of Russian teenagers to contend with back then.

 

[mrrice]

I'm sorry, but Carolina and Ashley are definitely not in the same class. I'd put very few people in the same class as Carolina, so this is no particular diss to Ashley, but I think almost all skating fans would agree with me. Moreover, there was not really anyone to 'dump' Carolina for. She was the only truly viable skater from Italy, whereas there are at least a half dozen Americans that could beat Ashley on a good day for them and a poor one for her- Mirai just did so, we know for a fact Gracie can do so, Polina did so at nationals and could certainly do so again, etc.

Seriously !! I love Carolina for the same reason I love Ashley, she wasn't a quitter. Ashley may not be in the same class but she's not done and continues to work hard. We've seen some of Carolina's performances that were not her best and she knew it. I also agree that she was clearly the best skater in Italy but, you must admit she had some less than stellar performances. The US is not as deep as Russia but Ashley had a much deeper field to beat for her National Titles than Carolina ever did. To say she's not in the same "Class" as any skater is not accurate.

I love Carolina because she's just such a lady. I also believe she's an inspiration to skaters like Ashley who may not be as young as the jumpers. Ashley is better at interpreting music and character than many skaters and I hope she wins a world medal this season.

Remember Dick and Peggy saying Maria Butyrskaya would never beat Michelle and then.......Boom.

 

[tulosai]

To say she's not in the same "Class" as any skater is not accurate.

Depending on what one means, it very much can be and is accurate. I am not making any claim that Ashley will 'never' beat any skater nor am I claiming Carolina had consistency in her career. But even if Carolina had also never medaled at Worlds I would still say Ashley's not in the same class her. Simply put, Carolina Kostner has among the best skating skills of all time. The quality of her edges, in particular, are truly awe-inspiring, as is her speed across the ice. Her artistry and connection to her music were also, at least in certain performances, at the very top of the top of what can be done. And I'm not really a Carolina uber, either- I view these things as objectively true, at least the bit about the skating skills. Carolina's jumps are also much bigger and stronger than Ashley's. She can fully rotate a triple triple 90+% of the time and she rarely if ever two footed her landings, something Ashley still does with alarming regularity.

With that said, in terms of their competitive records, they're not in the same class either, at least not yet. Consistent or not, Carolina has medaled at Euros every year since 2005, including 5 gold medals. She's medaled at Worlds 6 times. She's medaled at the GPF 4 times.

Even accounting for the fact that Ashley has had a shorter career than Carolina, her record doesn't even approach this. She's medaled at the GPF twice and won Four Continents once. That's 'it' in terms of major medals.

So right now, no, I don't think they are in the same class, and I don't see any point in pretending they are. Liking Ashley won't make them so.

 

[mrrice]

Well, I can't argue with any of the things you say about Carolina because they're all true. She's a great skater and a real lady.

 

[minze]

Depending on what one means, it very much can be and is accurate. I am not making any claim that Ashley will 'never' beat any skater nor am I claiming Carolina had consistency in her career. But even if Carolina had also never medaled at Worlds I would still say Ashley's not in the same class her. Simply put, Carolina Kostner has among the best skating skills of all time. The quality of her edges, in particular, are truly awe-inspiring, as is her speed across the ice. Her artistry and connection to her music were also, at least in certain performances, at the very top of the top of what can be done. And I'm not really a Carolina uber, either- I view these things as objectively true, at least the bit about the skating skills. Carolina's jumps are also much bigger and stronger than Ashley's. She can fully rotate a triple triple 90+% of the time and she rarely if ever two footed her landings, something Ashley still does with alarming regularity.

With that said, in terms of their competitive records, they're not in the same class either, at least not yet. Consistent or not, Carolina has medaled at Euros every year since 2005, including 5 gold medals. She's medaled at Worlds 6 times. She's medaled at the GPF 4 times.

Even accounting for the fact that Ashley has had a shorter career than Carolina, her record doesn't even approach this. She's medaled at the GPF twice and won Four Continents once. That's 'it' in terms of major medals.

So right now, no, I don't think they are in the same class, and I don't see any point in pretending they are. Liking Ashley won't make them so.

I am not a Carolina uber but Ashley is not in the same league period. The quality of Caro's skating is superior than Ashley.

 

[minze]

I like Ashley. She sells a program like no other. But she seem to be under the impression that she is one of the best in the world and she isn't. Her attitude at this event was uncalled for. I get that she wanted to do her best, but leaving upset in front of cameras.

In my opinion, her chance to get on the world podium was when Mao was reworking jumps and Yuna Kim was on break. I don't see how she can do it now.

Ashley is a good skater but not great.

 

[kwanatic]

But she seem to be under the impression that she is one of the best in the world and she isn't. ...Ashley is a good skater but not great.

Bingo. I think that is probably what it all comes down to. I do think she's a great performer...but she's only a good skater. The girls around her are better at jumps, spins, SS and TR. Ashley's already pretty much lost her PCS edge to the younger skaters which means it all comes down to the technical side right now. If she can right the technical ship, everything else will fall into place. But IMO the bigger question is even if she can get the 3-3 back, will it be enough? Ashley is never going to be as good a spinner as Julia or Adelina; she'll never have the clean technique of Polina or Anna; she can't pull off the intricate transitions the way Elena and Satoko can...and she's no longer viewed as #1 in the USFSA's eyes the way Gracie is.

Fundamentally, Ashley comes up short in a lot of areas and there isn't a whole lot she can do to fix it. She can keep fighting and she should keep fighting as long as she wants to. However, she needs to understand what her strengths and weaknesses are and realize that she's not the most gifted skater out there which means she needs to work twice as hard. She also needs to come to the realization that her absolute best probably will not be enough anymore...hwell:


Re: the Carolina/Ashley thing, I love Ashley but she's not in the same class/league/tier as Carolina. Based on skill alone, Carolina trumps Ashley BUT I'm looking at it in a broader sense. Carolina is kinda epic. She's in that top echelon of skaters reserved only for people who really left an impact during their time. IMO, that exclusive list includes only Yu-Na, Mao and Carolina. They were the top champions of this past era...The Big Three. When people talk about this past era of skating, people will talk about Yu-Na, Mao, Carolina and possibly Miki Ando. Unfortunately, I don't think any American will be included in the discussion. :disapp: