Technique question... Combo jumps

[Metis]

Yes. This is what I meant. Kaetlyn gets into her second jump much quicker than Evgenia. As a spectator, both look good to me. But which one is preferable? Taking any possible skater bias aside, which would get a higher GOE?

Katelyn. Absolutely, 100%, unquestionably Katelyn. I can break it down by GOE bullets in the new +5/-5 system, but the tl;dr is that Katelyn’s combination is ideal: great speed into the first jump, lots of height, solid landing with a fantastic running edge, quick tap of the toe pick and up she goes into the 3T, which also has fantastic height, and again landing on a smooth running edge as she motors out of the combo. The combination looks effortless.

Medvedeva would have been awarded a bullet for the Tano (one arm aloft) variation on her combination, but at the cost of height and distance. She also raises her free leg to roughly hip level when picking in for the flip, which is poor take off technique and commonly called a toe hammer or mule kick. The free foot shouldn’t be lifted very high and the pick should quickly tap the ice to vault the skater into the jump, whereas Medvedeva absolutely deserves a deduction for poor take off. After picking for the flip, her toe pick remains on the ice, which is another technical error, and she goes into the flip not with the assistance of her toe pick but the full blade (what fans have taken to calling a full blade assist or full blade takeoff). The only positive GOE bullet that can reasonably be awarded is for varied air position, which in the +3/-3 system wouldn’t have been sufficient for a +1 GOE, so her GOE would be at 0 when deductions began being applied. Under the new system, the bullet for “very good body position from takeoff to landing” is +1 GOE, which is not quite the same as the varied air position bullet. At most, Medvedeva would only be able to achieve +3 GOE due to not meeting the “effortless throughout” bullet (required for +4-5 GOE), which is obviously not the case. Medvedeva could earn the bullet for preceding steps into the 3F, which, again, is +1 before deductions begin to be applied. Even at a max of +3, she would almost certainly end up with negative GOE in the new system.

The excessive delay between the 3F and the 3T is also worth a penalty in GOE for loss of rhythm in a jump combination. Notice the distance Medvedeva glides before the 3T, whereas Katelyn initiates the 3T immediately after the 3F? (I suggest watching the combinations with reduced playback speed.) Katelyn lands on a back outside edge, touches the ice with her toe pick immediately, and soars into the 3T. Medvedeva glides on a relatively long curve before picking for the toe loop, which also has poor take off — notice, again, that after her toe pick touches the ice, the foot remains down. Medvedeva’s travel between jumps and subsequent delay in adding the 3T makes the 3F-3T “combination” look laboured. (And the 3T doesn’t seem like it naturally belongs, as it seems she’s simply landed the 3F and is in check position before initiating the 3T.)

Upon exit, Katelyn has more innate speed whereas Medvedeva continues skating on her landing foot, but her speed is noticeably poorer compared to Katelyn’s. Medvedeva should be awarded a high mark in Transitions in her programme components, but her jump combination, as an element, could justifiably be scored as a -3/-5 for the following errors: (1) toe hammer; (2) poor take off technique (foot remains on ice after picking); and (3) loss of rhythm in a jump combination. And that’s not even addressing the issue of how the two generate the momentum for their jumps in entirely different ways — Medvedeva uses her entire body to jump, which is fine, but she initiated the jump with her arms rather than her legs. Katelyn enters her jumping combination with her legs — she simply pulls into rotational position (arms tight around the chest) upon entering the jump. Medvedeva ... has her arms quite wide and pulls them in (and up) to lift herself into the 3F and generate rotation. Notice that her arms are fully extended long before her free foot touches down on the ice to initiate the flip? That’s what I mean about initiating the jump with her arms, rather than her legs.

 

[gkelly]

Under the new system, the bullet for “very good body position from takeoff to landing” cannot be awarded unless the jump/jump combination is also considered to be “effortless throughout,” which is obviously not the case. Under the new system, Medvedeva could earn the bullet for preceding steps into the 3F, but that bullet also requires “effortless throughout.”

That's not true.

There are currently six separate bullet points for jumps:

1) very good height and very good length (of all jumps in a combo or sequence)
2) good take-off and landing
3) effortless throughout (including rhythm in Jump combination)
4) steps before the jump, unexpected or creative entry
5) very good body position from take-off to landing
6) element matches the music

Each of these bullets is awarded independently. If you earn any 1 of them, as written (and as each judge evaluates what they see according to their understanding of what's written), then a judge who thought you met that 1 bullet point will award you a plus 1. If they thought you met any 2 of those bullet points they'll give you +2, and if they thought you met any 3 they'll award you +3. Up to that point, it doesn't matter which bullet points you met and which other ones you didn't -- the scores are just a straight 1 GOE step per bullet.

Where it gets complicated is if you met 4 or 5 of those bullet points. In order to earn +4 or +5, you have to have all 3 of the first boldfaced bullets, in addition to 1 or 2 of the lightfaced ones. If you have 2 or 3 of the lightface ones plus 1 or 2 of the bold ones, your GOE can't be any higher than +3.

I.e., "effortless throughout" is its own separate bullet point, and no other bullet points are themselves dependent on also meeting that one. To earn +4 or +5, it's necessary to earn that bullet point, as well as the other mandatory ones.

If you meet all 6 bullet points in a judge's estimation, then you automatically have all 3 of the mandatory ones so +5 GOE is a given.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Katelyn. Absolutely, 100%, unquestionably Katelyn. I can break it down by GOE bullets in the new +5/-5 system, but the tl;dr is that Katelyn’s combination is ideal: great speed into the first jump, lots of height, solid landing with a fantastic running edge, quick tap of the toe pick and up she goes into the 3T, which also has fantastic height, and again landing on a smooth running edge as she motors out of the combo. The combination looks effortless.

Medvedeva would have been awarded a bullet for the Tano (one arm aloft) variation on her combination, but at the cost of height and distance. She also raises her free leg to roughly hip level when picking in for the flip, which is poor take off technique and commonly called a toe hammer or mule kick. The free foot shouldn’t be lifted very high and the pick should quickly tap the ice to vault the skater into the jump, whereas Medvedeva absolutely deserves a deduction for poor take off. After picking for the flip, her toe pick remains on the ice, which is another technical error, and she goes into the flip not with the assistance of her toe pick but the full blade (what fans have taken to calling a full blade assist or full blade takeoff). The only positive GOE bullet that can reasonably be awarded is for varied air position, which in the +3/-3 system wouldn’t have been sufficient for a +1 GOE, so her GOE would be at 0 when deductions began being applied. Under the new system, the bullet for “very good body position from takeoff to landing” cannot be awarded unless the jump/jump combination is also considered to be “effortless throughout,” which is obviously not the case. Under the new system, Medvedeva could earn the bullet for preceding steps into the 3F, but that bullet also requires “effortless throughout.” Starting GOE is still zero before deductions.

The excessive delay between the 3F and the 3T is also worth a penalty in GOE for loss of rhythm in a jump combination. Notice the distance Medvedeva glides before the 3T, whereas Katelyn initiates the 3T immediately after the 3F? (I suggest watching the combinations with reduced playback speed.) Katelyn lands on a back outside edge, touches the ice with her toe pick immediately, and soars into the 3T. Medvedeva glides on a relatively long curve before picking for the toe loop, which also has poor take off — notice, again, that after her toe pick touches the ice, the foot remains down. Medvedeva’s travel between jumps and subsequent delay in adding the 3T makes the 3F-3T “combination” look laboured. (And the 3T doesn’t seem like it naturally belongs, as it seems she’s simply landed the 3F and is in check position before initiating the 3T.)

Upon exit, Katelyn has more innate speed whereas Medvedeva continues skating on her landing foot, but her speed is noticeably poorer compared to Katelyn’s. Medvedeva should be awarded a high mark in Transitions in her programme components, but her jump combination, as an element, could justifiably be scored as a -3/-5 for the following errors: (1) toe hammer; (2) poor take off technique (foot remains on ice after picking); and (3) loss of rhythm in a jump combination. And that’s not even addressing the issue of how the two generate the momentum for their jumps in entirely different ways — Medvedeva uses her entire body to jump, which is fine, but she initiated the jump with her arms rather than her legs. Katelyn enters her jumping combination with her legs — she simply pulls into rotational position (arms tight around the chest) upon entering the jump. Medvedeva ... has her arms quite wide and pulls them in (and up) to lift herself into the 3F and generate rotation. Notice that her arms are fully extended long before her free foot touches down on the ice to initiate the flip? That’s what I mean about initiating the jump with her arms, rather than her legs.

What fans think and what you think is deffinetely not the same with what ISU think. And we are seeing that with scoring of other skaters, so... Objectively, comparing to Kaetlyn you may say Zhenya lacks efforthlessnes in some of her combos (not always), so her GOE will be judged in those cases mostly with +3 (or +2). Even with less efforthlesnes, Zhenyas combos has still better air position than Kaetlyn's which are very common not straight all the time in the air (off the axis before landing/too wild), so she is missing that GOE bullet as commonly entry bullet, so she will mostly get +4/+3 (talking strictly about examples we can see). Its absolutely possible to jump efforthless without good position in the air and vice versa, that is exactly how Japanese judge explained the reason why Satokos and Kaoris jumps were scored the same (even Kaoris jumps were getting all the core bullets they lacked the rest, opposite of Satoko).

 

[Metis]

What fans think and what you think is deffinetely not the same with what ISU think. And we are seeing that with scoring of other skaters, Satoko combo is for example scored with +3, so... Objectively, comparing to Kaetlyn you may say Zhenya lacks efforthlessnes in some of her combos (not always), so her GOE will be judged in those cases mostly with +3 (or +2). Even with less efforthlesnes, Zhenyas combos has still better air position than Kaetlyn's which are very common not straight all the time in the air (off the axis before landing/too wild), so she is missing that GOE bullet as commonly entry bullet, so she will mostly get +4 (talking strictly about examples we can see). Its absolutely possible to jump efforthless without good position in the air and vice versa, that is exactly how Japanese judge were explained the reason why Satokos and Kaoris jumps were scored the same (even Kaoris jumps were getting all the core bullets comparing to Satoko, they lacked the rest).

No kidding? I don’t know why you’re bringing Satoko and Kaori into this, or discussing what you see as Katelyn’s flaws. Those flaws are not present in the jump combination isolated for comparison’s sake. Moreover, I know very well that Medvedeva was given positive GOE for that combination, because lulz reasons, but a judge would be perfectly within their rights to award her, at most, two positive feature bullets (varied air position and recognizable steps preceding the jump), as well as multiple negative feature deductions for poor takeoff, her toe hammer, and the loss of rhythm in the combination, which would offset a theoretical +1 to a -3 under the old system.

We are not, however, going to agree on several of your “objective” (you keep using that word... I do not think it means what you think it means) assertions, such as Medvedeva having superior air position. Moreover, your entire post is irrelevant to the discussion and the OP’s question. I have no interest in discussing this further with you, as we clearly disagree, and neither of us are going to change the other’s mind.

 

[yume]

Its absolutely possible to jump efforthless without good position in the air and vice versa, that is exactly how Japanese judge explained the reason why Satokos and Kaoris jumps were scored the same (even Kaoris jumps were getting all the core bullets they lacked the rest, opposite of Satoko

That stills criminal IMO.

 

[Metis]

snip

What’s weird is I know that but typed the post with the error intact. It’s fixed now. I blame autoimmune flaring up and my sleeping only every other day, which is like taking an edge call on the downgraded double jump that is my extraordinarily low blood pressure. [emoji12]

 

[Baron Vladimir]

No kidding? I don’t know why you’re bringing Satoko and Kaori into this, or discussing what you see as Katelyn’s flaws. Those flaws are not present in the jump combination isolated for comparison’s sake. Moreover, I know very well that Medvedeva was given positive GOE for that combination, because lulz reasons, but a judge would be perfectly within their rights to award her, at most, two bullets (varied air position and recognizable steps preceding the jump), but the negative GOE guidelines for poor takeoff, her toe hammer, and the loss of rhythm in the combination, which would offset a theoretical +1 to a -3 under the old system.

We are not, however, going to agree on several of your “objective” (you keep using that word... I do not think it means what you think it means) assertions, such as Medvedeva having superior air position. Moreover, your entire post is irrelevant to the discussion and the OP’s question. I have no interest in discussing this further with you, as we clearly disagree, and neither of us are going to change the other’s mind.

I was bringing Satoko and Kaori because on those examples ISU technical specialist Makoto Okazaki explained GOE given by the judges, which is opposite of what you are saying. Its not my opinion, its opinion of the people who are there to actually judge skaters.

 

[Metis]

I was bringing Satoko and Kaori because on those examples ISU technical specialist Makoto Okazaki explained GOE given by the judges, which is opposite of what you are saying.

The technical panel at the Olympics called Medvedeva’s visible-in-real-time 3Lze a 3Lz, Osmond‘s “That was a textbook flip” Lutz a 3Lz in the short and a 3Lz! in the free... we can restart the UR wars... “The technical panel says” doesn’t exactly sparkle as an argument when we, the viewers, know the TP’s footage to review when making calls is worse than what broadcasts offer and TPs have a long history of choosing not to make calls that a casual fan immediately notices. If the TP at the Olympics had actually made the calls they should have, the results likely wouldn’t have changed, but the points separating the podium finishers would be radically different.

Moreover, judges are allowed to give negative GOE for an error visible in real time (edge violation, UR, etc.) that is not called by the tech panel. If positive features are present, the negative GOE will be offset by any positive marks.

A judge would have been out of consensus for giving Medvedeva a -3 on her 3F-3T combo. They would not be without reason for doing so, and ISU’s own rules would support their decision if they were forced to defend it.

I also don’t know why you bolded the bit about “full blade takeoff,” which is a concept I consider to be poor technique but am otherwise indifferent to. I think a judge is absolutely within their rights to give negative GOE to a toe jump that takes off with the full blade, given that “poor takeoff” is a defined negative bullet. What I actually think of the hullabaloo over the concept is another issue entirely.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

The technical panel at the Olympics called Medvedeva’s visible-in-real-time 3Lze a 3Lz, Osmond‘s “That was a textbook flip” Lutz a 3Lz in the short and a 3Lz! in the free... we can restart the UR wars... “The technical panel says” doesn’t exactly sparkle as an argument when we, the viewers, know the TP’s footage to review when making calls is worse than what broadcasts offer and TPs have a long history of choosing not to make calls that a casual fan immediately notices. If the TP at the Olympics had actually made the calls they should have, the results likely wouldn’t have changed, but the points separating the podium finishers would be radically different.

Moreover, judges are allowed to give negative GOE for an error visible in real time (edge violation, UR, etc.) that is not called by the tech panel. If positive features are present, the negative GOE will be offset by any positive marks.

A judge would have been out of consensus for giving Medvedeva a -3 on her 3F-3T combo. They would not be without reason for doing so, and ISU’s own rules would support their decision if they were forced to defend it.

I also don’t know why you bolded the bit about “full blade takeoff,” which is a concept I consider to be poor technique but am otherwise indifferent to. I think a judge is absolutely within their rights to give negative GOE to a toe jump that takes off with the full blade, given that “poor takeoff” is a defined negative bullet. What I actually think of the hullabaloo over the concept is another issue entirely.

Of course there is a difference between judges and fans opinion. Not because fans are just less objective/less trained but because their point of view is critically different. Judges are judging skaters while they are skating right before their eyes, not while they are watching skaters on the TV screens.

 

[Metis]

Of course there is a difference between judges and fans. Not just because fans are less objective/less trained but point of view is critically different. Judges are judging skaters while they are skating right before their eyes, not while they are watching skaters on their TV screens!

Okay. Thank you for your response. I regret engaging even marginally in this conversation. As I said: we are not going to change each other’s minds, nevermind the fact that you keep scoring own-goals while moving the posts. Have a good day. I’m going to put you on ignore, as I don’t think banging our heads against a wall does either of us any good. [emoji106]

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Katelyn. Absolutely, 100%, unquestionably Katelyn. I can break it down by GOE bullets in the new +5/-5 system, but the tl;dr is that Katelyn’s combination is ideal: great speed into the first jump, lots of height, solid landing with a fantastic running edge, quick tap of the toe pick and up she goes into the 3T, which also has fantastic height, and again landing on a smooth running edge as she motors out of the combo. The combination looks effortless.

Medvedeva would have been awarded a bullet for the Tano (one arm aloft) variation on her combination, but at the cost of height and distance. She also raises her free leg to roughly hip level when picking in for the flip, which is poor take off technique and commonly called a toe hammer or mule kick. The free foot shouldn’t be lifted very high and the pick should quickly tap the ice to vault the skater into the jump, whereas Medvedeva absolutely deserves a deduction for poor take off. After picking for the flip, her toe pick remains on the ice, which is another technical error, and she goes into the flip not with the assistance of her toe pick but the full blade (what fans have taken to calling a full blade assist or full blade takeoff). The only positive GOE bullet that can reasonably be awarded is for varied air position, which in the +3/-3 system wouldn’t have been sufficient for a +1 GOE, so her GOE would be at 0 when deductions began being applied. Under the new system, the bullet for “very good body position from takeoff to landing” is +1 GOE, which is not quite the same as the varied air position bullet. Under the new system, Medvedeva would only be able to achieve +3 GOE due to not meeting the “effortless throughout” bullet (required for +4-5 GOE), which is obviously not the case. Under the new system, Medvedeva could earn the bullet for preceding steps into the 3F, which, again, is +1 before deductions begin to be applied. Even at a max of +3, she would almost certainly end up with negative GOE in the new system.

The excessive delay between the 3F and the 3T is also worth a penalty in GOE for loss of rhythm in a jump combination. Notice the distance Medvedeva glides before the 3T, whereas Katelyn initiates the 3T immediately after the 3F? (I suggest watching the combinations with reduced playback speed.) Katelyn lands on a back outside edge, touches the ice with her toe pick immediately, and soars into the 3T. Medvedeva glides on a relatively long curve before picking for the toe loop, which also has poor take off — notice, again, that after her toe pick touches the ice, the foot remains down. Medvedeva’s travel between jumps and subsequent delay in adding the 3T makes the 3F-3T “combination” look laboured. (And the 3T doesn’t seem like it naturally belongs, as it seems she’s simply landed the 3F and is in check position before initiating the 3T.)

Upon exit, Katelyn has more innate speed whereas Medvedeva continues skating on her landing foot, but her speed is noticeably poorer compared to Katelyn’s. Medvedeva should be awarded a high mark in Transitions in her programme components, but her jump combination, as an element, could justifiably be scored as a -3/-5 for the following errors: (1) toe hammer; (2) poor take off technique (foot remains on ice after picking); and (3) loss of rhythm in a jump combination. And that’s not even addressing the issue of how the two generate the momentum for their jumps in entirely different ways — Medvedeva uses her entire body to jump, which is fine, but she initiated the jump with her arms rather than her legs. Katelyn enters her jumping combination with her legs — she simply pulls into rotational position (arms tight around the chest) upon entering the jump. Medvedeva ... has her arms quite wide and pulls them in (and up) to lift herself into the 3F and generate rotation. Notice that her arms are fully extended long before her free foot touches down on the ice to initiate the flip? That’s what I mean about initiating the jump with her arms, rather than her legs.

Thanks for this breakdown! I prefer Osmond's combo as a whole, but in Medvedeva's defense, I do like seeing the running edge on her 3F... to me it shows control and quality in the landings. I prefer combination jumps that very distinctly show each jumps, and secure landings with flow, and dislike ones that are rushed. Nathan Chen and Wakaba Higuchi are two examples of skaters who I wish would take more time in their landings to show some more flow.