The "European Style" and who has it...

[Matt]

OK, this was born out of one of the wild, out-of-left-field, tangents that we here at GoldenSkate are so good at doing; we'll take a subject thread and take it in a totally different and/or opposite direction

But I digress...

The question in the "big surprise" at Worlds thread was as to what (if anything) is the "European style" of skating and who is a good example of said style. To keep the posters on track and focused, I've come up with a set of objective targets for this thread:

1. Determine if there is a "European style"

2. If the answer to #1 is yes, then determine what that "European style" is

3. Determine a skater who exemplifies this "European style"


OK, now my reponse: I think that there is a "European style" and if anything definite, is the fluid, simplistic, lyrical, edge-strong quality of skating that isn't so dependent on the jumps, but more about an appreciative enjoyment of actually skating. Everything we at GS gush about: the back positions, the time taken to do the MITF and finish off the programme, the deep knees, etc.

As to who has a "European style", the comment about having a European style was made of Matt Savoie with Petr Barna being mentioned as a classic example. I would say that the most classic example of a European style is the much-venerated-by-GS-posters John Curry. As to Matt Savoie having a European style, if my definition is true, then yes, I would say he does have a European style. Kevin van der Perren too, is a wonderful example, IMO (He actually spots his jumps, if you watch carefully...it's unrelated to the thread, but it's something I find interesting)

 

[lulu]

What does spotting a jump mean?

 

[Matt]

lulu, "spotting" comes from the dance world, and it refers to a dancer foucsing on a particular spot, and then keeping their eyes focused on that spot when they do a pirouette so they don't lose their balance. You can tell if someone is "spotting" something if they are quickly whipping their head around when they complete a rotation. So, van der Perren spots his jumps, just like a dancer would a pirouette or any other turn. It's actually rather dangerous for a skater to be doing, but if it works for him...

I apologise for not being clear; I'm a dancer myself, so I was just using dance terminology

 

[lulu]

Thanks for explaining it so well.
I'll have to look for that next time I see KVDP.

 

[floskate]

Lulu, check your tapes for KVDP and watch his head when he jumps - that should explain everything!!

Matt if that facsinates you - dig out some old Selzneva/Makarov programs - she actually spots every half a revolution!!!!!

But about the Euro style - Europe has become fractioned in its approach to skating I think. Look at the French skaters, you can always tell them apart, their style is so different. If John Curry is the benchmark for Euro style, then for sure he invented it because the men around him in that era were pretty awful in terms of style and presentation.

Of todays skaters, I'd say Lambiel and actually Jeff Buttle - his programs make the jumps look so unimportant. It really is about the choreography and shape of the program.
JMO

 

[Ladskater]

I think I get the general idea of what you mean by "European style." Years ago, especially in the dance discipline, European dance teams had a different style than our North American teams. Actually, our teams had to learn to emulate the Russian and European teams to make an impact with the judges.

It's really hard to say what "European style" is today. It may have to do with training. Many of the European and Russian coaches teach in North America now, so pinning down a specific European or North American style may be not as easy.

I do know since the demise of figures many skaters suffer in developing good quality edges and the concentration is on jumping. However,Kurt Browning and Jeff Buttle are excellent examples of skaters who pay attention to detail and really get into their knees with wonderful flow and deep edges. This is an aspect of skating that skaters must learn to develop and it takes lots of practice to master good speed and flow.

Speaking of speed and flow, this may be what you are refering to as "European style." The Russian and European skaters have always been noted (particularly pair teams) for their speed and ice coverage. North American skaters have learned to develop this aspect of their skating better over the years.

Interesting topic! Hope this helps.

 

[PrincessLeppard]

Urg, since I started this topic in the other thread, I guess I must comment.

To me, the epitome of European style is Alexander Abt. He gets *amazing* speed with very few crossovers, has fabulous edges, gorgeous spins and usually, great choreography and footwork. (I'm thinking specifically of his Russian Sailor dance SP).

For the most part, all of the Russian (Evgeni, both Alexeis, both Ilias) men have great edges and speed, perhaps they still train the kids in figures a bit. Who knows?

Feel free to jump in and comment!

Laura

 

[soogar]

Alexander Abt has great style ( I think he skates like Petr ... I'm kind of hung up on him LOL).

The kids need to get training in figures just so there will be availability of patch sessions so I can skate patch. However I'm not sure if figures really help that much. When they were used in competition, most of the skaters were older and I noticed that older skaters tend to skate with better edges and flow than younger skaters. Even now, most of the skaters competing have rudimentry knowledge of figures and they develop their edges as they get older with a few exceptions like Timmy.

It does seem that there are a lot of kids skating ice dance nowadays. At my rink , I see all these youngsters skating dance which I didn't see when I was skating years ago. I imagine the kids can pick up flow and edges from dance.

 

[mzheng]

To me, the epitome of European style is Alexander Abt. He gets *amazing* speed with very few crossovers, has fabulous edges, gorgeous spins and usually, great choreography and footwork. (I'm thinking specifically of his Russian Sailor dance SP).

Laura

His coach was Rafael. Right? He's been very emphsizing the edges to his skaters. They have those dedicate sessions just for stroking.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Matt - I dig your posts, and I know your love for skating goes beyond Europe and Russia but I would need a clear definitition of what the Eureopean style is.

Your being a dancer you shoulld be aware that a big jump in dance is basically just another step in dance. If it looks like a trick then it wont sell in the dance audience. It must be part of the dance. However, the big trick is often talked about during the intermission.

I have to agree with floskate, Lambiel makes a quad or a triple combo look like part of the program whereas other Eureopean skaters make those jumps a highlight - separate from the program. Hence, the arm raising "look Ma, a quad!"

I also agree, that John Curry is the benchmark for modern male skaters' programs looking more stylized. Prior to John, there was Uncle Dick who did his program according to the rules, and that's the way is was prior to Curry.

In Canada, Browning took style to the extreme which can not be duplicated. One asked, does he actually have skates on? Present day Canadians have Buttle and Sandhu - two very diffeent styles completly.

In the USA, Weiss and Savoie have two different styles and Goebel and Weir are styles in developoment, and I think they will be different.

European skater, in general, look at skating more as a sport than the N.Americans so, imo, they go more for the jumps because it has more value in a sport. However, imo, in addition to Lambiel, there is Ilia Klimkin, and Kevin van der Perren with unique styles. It seems to me that others tend to sell their jumps and one in particular just loves to mug the audience. (I'm too old for that.) So I am not sure what the European style is. Certainly in France there is a lot of diversity.

The above is just my take on the topic and it has nothing to do with jumping ability or choreography.

Joe

 

[Matt]

Thanks, Joe I dig your posts, too.

 

[nthuz]

OK, now my reponse: I think that there is a "European style" and if anything definite, is the fluid, simplistic, lyrical, edge-strong quality of skating that isn't so dependent on the jumps, but more about an appreciative enjoyment of actually skating. Everything we at GS gush about: the back positions, the time taken to do the MITF and finish off the programme, the deep knees, etc.

That is how I would define the "North American style".

By the way, sounds a lot like MK.

 

[PrincessLeppard]

I agree that sounds like MK. But when I was talking, originally, about European style, I was referring to the men. I am really not a fan of the Mike Weiss/Elvis Stojko "I'm a man, dammit!" style of skating, (though I do love Stojko's energy and charisma) and I just love the smooth quality and expressiveness of the Russian men, as well as Van Der Perren, for example, and some lesser known Euro men, like Gregor Urbas, Karel Zelenka and slightly better known men like Sergei Davydov and the Murve.

Laura

 

[RIskatingfan]

European skater, in general, look at skating more as a sport than the N.Americans so, imo, they go more for the jumps because it has more value in a sport. However, imo, in addition to Lambiel, there is Ilia Klimkin, and Kevin van der Perren with unique styles. It seems to me that others tend to sell their jumps and one in particular just loves to mug the audience. (I'm too old for that.) So I am not sure what the European style is. Certainly in France there is a lot of diversity. Joe

It's just when the subject came up all I could envisage was male skaters circling around the rink after posing to their theme music and all very cautiously executing very wonderful quads and triple combos. The music became totally background music.

(this is a quote from the other thread, I post it here to keep it in topic)

No offense and all Joe, but it really shows you don't watch Europeans and don't know very well European skaters. BTW, Kevin VDP with unique style? I'd say he's a skater with good basics, but unique style?

And really, the way you mentioned quads and triple combos wasn't very flattering but I suppose that was not the intention anyway. I know US men (you are American right?) aren't famous for landing difficult jumps or combos but doesn't mean they aren't important and valuable for the sport whether one likes to watch them or not.

I have to say that generalizations like the one you made of European skating bothers me. So you think the only thing they care about is jumps? (except for Klimkin and Lambiel and KVDP?) You obviously haven't seen Murvanidze, Gregor Urbas, Dambier, Jeannete, Verner, Davydov, Ivan Dinev (sigh in his good days...) and of course, how can one forget about the wonderful Silvio Smalun... these are just a few skaters, from different countries, with unique styles and who are still eligible and competed this season.

You know Joe, just because you don't know European skaters so well because what American TV shows you are the top ones who obviously focus alot on difficult technical elements, doesn't mean there isn't more than that.

 

[shine]

So I also contributed to bringing up this topic in another thread with my random rambling though I really didn't intend to

I guess my point in the other thread was that there is not really a absolute "European style" just as there's not an absolute "NA style" or Asian style. Heck, if we were to identify and assign style based on geography, why not go by country? I do agree that skaters from Europe generally tend to focus on some asepcts of skating more so than skaters from north America, and vice versa. For example, to me most European skaters seem to have very good speed, fast spins, powerful stroking and sweeping movements/gesture, while NA skaters tend to be more precise in their technique, generally not as powerful or fast, and their choreography is more sensitive to the music rather than sweeping. The same could probably be said for the judge also. But artistically speaking I don't think we can combine all the Euro skaters, average their individual styles, and say THAT is the European style.

Too an extend I agree that European skaters tend to be less cautious with how their skating "looks" on the ice and where their body is in space. Not as well "packaged" so to speak. But IMO they are freer in their expression and have more presence and authority on the ice in general. NA skaters tend to be more delicate, but often lack power and command. I don't have a particular preference for either because the best skaters from either always tend to have the good qualities of both styles. And the bad skaters tend to have the good quality of neither.

That said, I only had single/pair skaters in mind when I said this. I think it would require a different topic if we want to talk about dance.

 

[Mathman]

I think this is probably off topic, by why don't men skate in sweaters and slacks any more, like they did in the 1950s? That looked nice and masculine. I don't know who is to blame for the movement towards lace and sequins and buttons and bows, but IMHO it makes the men's side of the sport less interesting.

Mathman

 

[shine]

I guess that is probably the result of the movement toward freer artistic expression? I think we all agree that costuming adds a lot to the appearance of the performance and helps express the idea of the choregraphy. I would also think that the range of music choice has to be broader now than it was then. Just imagine Ryan Jahnke skating in suits to his brazillian dance program

 

[PrincessLeppard]

I think this is probably off topic, by why don't men skate in sweaters and slacks any more, like they did in the 1950s? That looked nice and masculine. I don't know who is to blame for the movement towards lace and sequins and buttons and bows, but IMHO it makes the men's side of the sport less interesting.

Mathman

AAAAAAIIIIEEEE!!! Sweaters??? Are you kidding me? Evgeni in a sweater while skating to Edvin Marton??? Ilia Klimkin performing Dr. Diesel in a sweater???

I was a child of the 80s. Give me men in lace and fabulous costumes anytime!

Laura

 

[bestskate8]

Best example isToller Cranston for Euro style. His own country never understood him according to his books. He was loved in Europe. For the same program, which was not well received in Canada, in Europe he would get standing ovation. Last year Plushenko started going same way, hope he will continue. IMO

 

[Ladskater]

bestskate8:


Toller not appreciated here in Canada? You must have misread his meaning; Toller was greatly appreciated and loved by Canadian fans. Everywhere he skated he got a standing ovation. I don't know if that is just Toller "sounding off" about the judges, but to the fans he will always be the "incomparable Toller."