The Greatest Of All Time

[TallyT]

No offense, but I can't think of any objective criteria that would qualify any of the mentioned skaters as GOATs.
Of course, for all of us our favourite skaters are the GOATs of our figure skating hearts, but I don't think that's what OP meant.

I sometimes wonder if - had she not imploded from everything we now know, and reached her full potential - Gracie might have been close, especially in the ranks of Americans.

 

[LolaSkatesInJapan]

I think who is the greatest varies from each person's perspective and taste/preferences?
For me
Men - Evgeni Pluschenko (I admit I don't watch men that much, not very interested, I rather watch women since is the discipline I am in)
Women - Kamila Valieva
Pairs - Elena Berezhnaya & Anton Sikharulidze (again, don't watch pairs so much, since I don't do pairs)

 

[Mathematician]

What do people know about greatness anyways. These debates are the worst.

 

[Mathman]

Not a debate, just an exchange of random thoughts. It's fun, no harm.

By objective criteria, all-time successful pair's skater: Irina Rodnina & her partners: ten world chamionships and three Olympic gold medals. Personal choice in terms of influence on the sport: Belousova and Protopopov. (This was before 1980, though. Post 1980, Gordeeva and Grinkov.)

 

[moonvine]

No offense, but I can't think of any objective criteria that would qualify any of the mentioned skaters as GOATs.
Of course, for all of us our favourite skaters are the GOATs of our figure skating hearts, but I don't think that's what OP meant.

It’s a fun thread and I’m having fun! But the answer to all questions for me wil always be Gracie. What criteria would one even use?

Honestly I think Dick Button may well be the GOAT but he’s so far back in time no one thinks of him. He won things no one will ever win again- North Americans, because they don’t exist, and somehow he won Europeans when he’s American, also very unlikely to happen again. Although he did not win any GPs because they didn’t exist back then so points off for that I guess? But no consensus will ever be reached so I will stick by my loves.

 

[Mathman]

... and somehow Dick Button won Europeans when he’s American, also very unlikely to happen again.

I think that the circumstances were something like this. Figure Skating was historically a European sport, with the most prominent skaters usually German/Austrian and Scandinavian. World War II devastated European figure skating and the infrastructure generally, which created opportunities for others to surge ahead, mostly North Americans. U.S. men won 4 consecutive Olympic gold medals starting in 1948 without much competition from European skaters.

The ISU was perfectly happy to allow American Dick Button (he had graduated from high school the year before and was the U.S. champion and world silver medalist at the time) and Canadian Barbara Ann Scott (two-time world champion) to compete at 1948 Europeans to shore up the competition. Both won and after that the rules were changed to allow only European skaters to compete as Europe slowly got back in the game.

 

[Skater Boy]

I'll go with Gracie, Keegan Messing, Tai and Randy and Kaitlyn and Jean Luc. And honorable mention to Jimmy Ma.

This is the most interesting list. None of them have OGM. Most not even a world medal.

 

[Mathman]

That would make an interesting thread, too. Which skaters all time drew you in with most eager anticipation every time they took the ice?

I always looked forward to seeing Watanabe and Kido and Chait and Sakhnovsky.

 

[DancingCactus]

I dislike GOAT discussions since you simply cannot compare skaters objectively. Look at tennis. Djokovic has more Grand Slam medals now than Federer but many people still see Federer as the GOAT becasue he had that extra flair and je ne sais quoi.
And with figure skating it's even harder because of the "artistic" side (another can of worms). Maybe we can narrow it down to a few contenders per category but the rest is pretty subjective.
Maybe asking who was the most influential and respected skater of their generation makes more sense. Or who was the best in a specific aspect of sakting. Even Virtue/Moir are questionable. They are the most decorated skaters in the history of the Olympics, but they competeted at the same time as another fantastic pair and did not always come out on top ( I think Davis/White should have won in 2010 and Virtue/Moir in 2014 but whatever, that's just personal taste). Then you can't forget Torvill/Dean obviously and Papadakis/Cizeron would probably also like to have a word in terms of sheer technical prowess.

 

[Mathman]

Maybe asking who was the most influential and respected skater of their generation makes more sense.

Sometimes there are "decade" discussions. Who was the dominant skater of the 1970s. The 1980s. I always define a decade as startng on the 5s. That way, Michelle Kwan is the forever champion of the decade 1995 to 2004

 

[Arigato]

When assessing GOAT status in any sport, it's usually not because of a single number of X, Y, or Z alone. To this day, the Michael Jordan - LeBron James debate still goes on. I assure you, no one picks one number alone to determine the answer.

I agree with this position:

“The greatest ever is LeBron James, (but) the greatest of all time is Michael Jordan,” the player said. “The difference is stats. When you talk about impact, Michael Jordan. When you talk about stats and numbers, LeBron. Mike has the most impact, so that makes him the greatest ever in all aspects because he doesn’t just impact basketball. He impacts people who look up to him in tennis and football. But you won’t hear that about LeBron. … LeBron changed the game, but more so how it’s played. Jordan changed how it’s viewed. And that’s a big difference.”

I would take that same position and apply it to any sport. You don't have to keep winning titles to be called the GOAT. If that's all it was, the acronym: GOAT would be rather mundane and meaningless.

 

[Mathman]

( I think Davis/White should have won in 2010 and Virtue/Moir in 2014 but whatever, that's just personal taste).

To me it was the actual program construction that carried the day. Virtue and Moir's Mahler program in 2010 was a choreographic masterpiece. The 2014 dance, though it momentarity set the world record in points. I thought that it was remarkable more for the execution.

 

[Mathman]

"LeBron changed the game, but more so how it’s played. Jordan changed how it’s viewed. And that’s a big difference.”

By that criterion I don't think it is possible to mention any other skater in the same breath as Sonja Henie.

 

[elektra blue]

I'm a boxing and MMA fan also, and I can confirmed the "GOAT debate" is 1000 times softer here than in any other MMA or boxing comment section

wait for some old foxes to bring up some late 80s Olympics...

I am sitting on my hands because I have a (not so little) list just for you know who...............

does he start with Y and end with -uzuruhanyu by any chance? just guessing

 

[Arigato]

By that criterion I don't think it is possible to mention any other skater in the same breath as Sonja Henie.

 

[moonvine]

This is the most interesting list. None of them have OGM. Most not even a world medal.

I have never been accused of boring anyone yet. Tai & Randy were of course favored to win gold when he was injured. Who knows what could have been.

 

[moonvine]

I think that the circumstances were something like this. Figure Skating was historically a European sport, with the most prominent skaters usually German/Austrian and Scandinavian. World War II devestated European figure skating and the infrastructure generally, which created opportunities for others to surge ahead, mostly North Americans. U.S. men won 4 consecutive Olympic gold medals starting in 1948 without much competition from European skaters.

The ISU was perfectly happy to allow American Dick Button (he had graduated from high school the year before and was the U.S. champion and world silver medalist at the time) and Canadian Barbara Ann Scott (two-time world champion) to compete at 1948 Europeans to shore up the competition. Both won and after that the rules were changed to allow only European skaters to compete as Europe slowly got back in the game.

Which is why no other American will ever do it!

 

[Arigato]

Some OGM are won
1) because the ultimate favourite messed up the SP or didn't have a good performance
2) with a subpar LP including falls.

Yes, in the end, some fans will remember the gold medal around the neck of their favourite skater... but was their skater that wonderful that day ? Is this what defines a GOAT performance ? Falling twice to get a gold medal ?

If you are willing to give Yuna 1.5 gold medal... is Yuzu's Sochi gold only a half gold ?

I am just being the devil's advocate here.... and you know what, I am not really trying to define who is the greatest or not... but just to show that when one makes an arbitrary choice to say that an olympic gold is worth more than 2-3 world titles... well someone else could argue that a gold medal won at the olympics while not giving a good performance or while others killed their chances in the SP isn't really worthy of being associated to the GOAT

Clearly, the GOAT is in the eye of the beholder.

Junhwan Cha has won nationals 8 times.
Were all his programs performed well? No.
Was there a lot of competition for him in his country? No.
Should I be impressed with the 8 titles? No.

 

[TallyT]

What do people know about greatness anyways.

If that's true, why bother saying anything is good or bad - books, art, music, sport, academia... anything. Opinions are always subjective but that doesn't mean they don't have a bedrock of defensible facts. And this has been a pretty good thread, much better than I expected, since most everyone has kept to celebrating their own, not knocking down others.

I think a better question would be "who in your opinion has an inarguable claim to consideration for that title?" Because while there is competition. there will be GOATs proclaimed.

Sometimes there are "decade" discussions. Who was the dominant skater of the 1970s. The 1980s. I always define a decade as startng on the 5s. That way, Michelle Kwan is the forever champion of the decade 1995 to 2004

There have been threads on best of quads, which narrows it even further. Thing is, some decades/quads were simply tougher and more competitive than others. I don't think anyone can say Dick Button isn't well and truly in the mix for GOAT but it's inarguable that, for the historical reasons @Mathman mentions, he ruled over a weaker men's time. Whereas like them or not, the Tutberidze girls created for themselves a fiercely competitive era.

 

[TallyT]

does he start with Y and end with -uzuruhanyu by any chance? just guessing

You know me too well and guess what, my hands escaped. So I get to give you my 'inarguable claims for consideration' and throw my miniature plastic skates in where I can (I don't know pairs well enough so can only say I do rather love Sui/Han and Shen/Zhao)

ID - Torvill and Dean. No ifs buts or maybes.

Women - there's definitely pre and post IJS. Pre, I agree it's Sonja Henie, on medal count and influence at the time (I may now find her pretty well unwatchable and apparently she was a quite unpleasant person, but sports stars being good people is only a recent requirement) though Kwan looms close and is, ironically, probably remembered more. Post, it's Yuna Kim, who was never off the podium in her career, and made skating in her home country.

And now {deep breath} men. I think it's almost impossible to pick a pre-IJS, there are several who have a valid claim going right back to Gillis Grafström. But (hey, you knew I would say this) in the current IJS era (and even over the whole), Yuzuru has - and this is just the highlights, folks, wiki shows far more:
59 medals in junior and senior competitions, among them 37 golds, the back to back OGMs, 7 world medals, (along with Jan Hoffman in the 70s, more than any skater in the post-WW2 era), 4 consecutive GPFs (only singles skater to achieve this), 21 medals in international super slam events.
international medals in all 14 figure skating seasons of his junior and senior career and at least one gold in each season with exception of first senior year when he was 15-16
number 1 in men's rankings for five consecutive seasons, the most of any man since 2001-02 season
19 world records, the most in singles skating under IJS, including the 2018 historicals (the +3/-3 GOE System) and he was the one who broke all three century barriers: 100, 200 and 300
in the men's discipline, the only triple crown (Oly/Worlds/GPF) since Yagudin's, and the first and only career super grand slam (gold in every major slam event) and he was only one 4CC off having all the senior ones twice
the first quad loop, first quad toe-triple Axel sequence, first quad toe-Euler-triple flip combination
30 (count 'em) perfect scores for technical elements and program components, and 50 landed triple Axel jumps with positive GOE in 51 international senior short programs (98% success rate) to 2021

Also, Yuzu's image, especially in the probably-most-iconic-program-of-modern-times Seimei, is so iconic (including in silhouette) that the media and IJS still unblushingly use it all the damn time. Then after turning pro he has completed the first (and sellout) solo tours by a figure skater, the greatest and most successful figure skating tours of the IJS era and the single biggest solo show (35,000 plus cinemas plus livestream) of all time and the only one ever bought and still being shown by one of the world's biggest streaming companies. In fact, it's been calculated by academic studies that he has actually impacted Japan's whole economy and both competitive and post brought significant economic benefits everywhere he skated. And it's not even three years...