The US Nationals Ladies Podium

[krenseby]

I know that many say that the judging at the US Nationals ladies competition was unfair. So, for those of you who are knowledgeable about COP, what would the placements look like if the judging were objective and less biased?

Should the podium have been

Gold: Rachael
Silver: Alissa
Bronze: Caroline

or

Gold: Rachael
Silver: Caroline
Bronze: Alissa

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think the three ladies deserved to be on the podium in whatever order. I have no complaints. Two of them, of course will go to Worlds and then it really matters for 13 points in the Olypic year.

btw, the 4CC will be soon and that will tell us more.

 

[museksk8r]

It will be interesting to see what happens at 4CC in the placements of Rachael and Alissa. I still stand by my opinion that the podium should have been: Gold: Rachael, Silver: Alissa, and Bronze: Caroline. I personally see absolutely no justification for an argument that Zhang deserves to be placed above Czisny due to Caroline's weaker skating skills and consistent problems of under-rotating numerous jumps in her programs. It certainly has me scratching my head at how Alissa's LP PCS scores at Nationals magically increased by 8 points from her international competitions when she had nowhere close to a clean skate.

Rachael and Alissa have met internationally this season already at the Cup of Russia, which took place in November. There, Flatt scored a 55.92 (TES = 31.80 and PCS = 24.12) in the SP and Czisny scored a 53.50 (TES = 30.50 and PCS = 25.00). Alissa under-rotated and fell on her 3Lutz in the SP and received a time violation, so she got -2.00 in total deductions. Rachael was credited with fully rotating all of her jumps and got 0 total deductions. In the LP, Flatt scored a 110.14 (TES = 60.86 and PCS = 49.28) and Czisny scored a 97.53 (TES = 47.13 and PCS = 52.40). Alissa fell twice and under-rotated 2 of her 5 triples. Her total deductions were -2.00. Rachael was credited with fully rotating all 6 triples that she attempted and received 0 total deductions. The final result was: 2nd place-Rachael FLATT=166.06, SP: 3, LP: 2 and 4th place-Alissa CZISNY =151.03, SP: 5, LP: 4. Flatt beat Czisny by 15 points internationally. It will be interesting to see what next week reveals at 4CC should both ladies compete.

Who knows, it may be a blessing in disguise that Flatt did not win Nationals in the year preceding the Olympics because fate has not been kind to a first time defending ladies' US champion, particularly the last couple of years with Meissner and Nagasu, who both failed to medal the next year after winning. Rosalyn Sumners back in 1983 was the last lady to successfully defend the title after a first time win. It's a 26 year old curse.

 

[R.D.]

I'd go with the current skaters but flip the 1st and 2nd spots. Or, at the very least, Czisny should have won only by tenths or hundredths of a point, not almost 5 FULL points. but it's useless debating, what's happened has happened and life will go on as usual.

 

[ANW]

I have to say Alissa got lucky. I watched her LP clip and the 3 loop was cheated and should be DGed. In any sense, Alissa should be in the 3rd place overall behind Rachael and Caroline.

 

[ks777]

I would have placed Mirai 1st just because she is my favorite.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I have to say Alissa got lucky. I watched her LP clip and the 3 loop was cheated and should be DGed.

It was really close but I wouldn't have downgraded it. She takes a more difficult entry into the jump, so that provides the benefit of the doubt for me.

I do think Alissa deserved to win overall. Every aspect of her skating, outside of the jumps, is THE best among all of the current American ladies. I would have had her about 10 points ahead of the field after that career-best SP, so she had plenty of wiggle room in the LP. Nobody was amazing enough to overtake the gap. Yeah, Flatt landed way more jumps, but she loses SO many points in other areas (spins, spiral, program components).

I would have scored all of the top LPs pretty close together, tbh. People complain about Alissa only having a 3-Triple LP, but why are we not counting all of the other elements as well? For every jumping pass where Flatt was stronger, there was a spin or spiral sequence where Alissa was superior. Nobody was a significant degree better than Alissa when you stop looking at only the jumps and take everything into consideration.

It's the same situation as last year. I would have had Nagasu 4th in the LP last year, but it wasn't much lower of a score than what I would have given to the 1st place LP. Nagasu, like Czisny, deserved to win because she was SO much better in the SP than everyone else. Ranking doesn't mean anything. The overall accomplishment (shown by the points) is what matters.

Overall -

2008:
1. Nagasu
2. Wagner
3. Flatt
4. Zhang
5. Liang

2009:
1. Czisny
2. Zhang
3. Flatt
4. Wagner
5. Nagasu

 

[Mathman]

I am satisfied with the podium. The only thing controversial is Alissa's PCSs in the long program. More realistic for that less-than-perfect program would have been 56 (average 7.0) instead of 60 (average 7.5). But she still would have won.

I also think that it is kind of irrelevant to bring up what happened at Cup of Russia or to speculate on what might happen at Four Continents or Worlds. The question is about who skaed the best at this contest.

 

[eliza88]

The podium made complete sense to me! Figure skating is MORE then just jumps...to say Rachel was better because she did more jumps takes away all the in-betweens, spins, etc from what Alissa does so beautifully! Alissa captured my attention and kept me entranced from the first 5 seconds to the end...no one else had that presence (at least to me on that night).

eliza88

 

[AwesomeIce]

I would have placed Mirai 1st just because she is my favorite.

I would have placed her 17th, because... she's not my favorite.

 

[bekalc]

For every jumping pass where Flatt was stronger, there was a spin or spiral sequence where Alissa was superior. Nobody was a significant degree better than Alissa when you stop looking at only the jumps and take everything into consideration.

The problem with your argument is that Rachael had all level fours except for her footwork that got a level three.

So yes well the quality of Alissa's spins and spirals was better. Her and Rachael had the same degree of difficulty (I didn't check Alissa's levels)

In contrast, there was a night and day difference when it came to the jumping with Alissa only attempting 4 triples.

If Rachael had level one footwork/level one spins etc. I could understand the whole argument better. But that's just not the case.

 

[Blades of Passion]

In contrast, there was a night and day difference when it came to the jumping with Alissa only attempting 4 triples.

There was a night and day difference in the areas where Alissa was better too.

Who cares if the levels were the same? It's the quality that is more important. I am not impressed by Level 4 spins where the skater gets into an ugly position or nearly halts their speed to achieve a level. I give negative GOE to poor spin positions when I judge. I wish all judges would do the same and that the Code of Points weighed the GOEs for spins properly.

Czisny deserved to score about 5 points extra on the spins in comparison to Flatt and 2 points extra on the Spiral Sequence. Her PCS should have been about 6 points higher. That puts Czisny 13 points ahead of Flatt on the non-jump elements. I would have had Flatt about 15 points ahead on the jumps. In the end it's only a 2 point advantage for Flatt in the LP, whereas I think Czisny deserved to be at least 10 points ahead in the SP.

Oh, and let's not just discuss Czisny vs. Flatt. Zhang was also better than Flatt. She performed roughly the same jumps, yes maybe with slightly lesser quality, but was also far better with the spins and spirals.

 

[chuckm]

Alissa may be the overall better skater, but Rachael is by far the better competitor.

If US Nationals was played before an ISU panel, I think Rachael would have come out on top, because NO WAY would Alissa Czisny get PCS scores in the high 7s for a 3-triple FS.

Rachael's 6-triple FS beat Alissa's 3-triple FS at Cup of Russia 110.14 to 97.53.

Yes, Alissa got higher PCS scores at CoR than Rachael:
6.60 6.20 6.45 6.70 6.80 to Rachael's 6.35 6.00 6.20 6.05 6.20
But the overall PCS point gap at CoR (3.12) wasn't anywhere near the PCS point gap at Nationals---7.32.

But even Alissa's good 5-triple FS at Skate Canada got nowhere near the PCS scores that her Nationals 3-triple FS got.

6.65 6.10 6.75 6.55 6.50 SC vs. 7.43 7.21 7.75 7.61 7.89 Nats

2009 Worlds will be skated before ISU judges, not USFS judges.

 

[Spun Silver]

This is an interesting debate. As a mere fan I'm with Blades of Passion. Alissa looked like a champion. No one else did. While the commentators were creating tension and talking about Rachael's chances of winning, I was thinking, How could we have a national champion with no spark? Alissa is an underdog champion that people love for the sheer beauty of her skating and will root for when she gets herself in a tough situation.

I have a lot of respect for young Rachael but this wasn't her year. She was better to watch last season. But yeah, she's a phenomenal competitor. She has plenty of time and I hope she'll continue to develop her talent.

 

[Tinymavy15]

I really have no beef with the podium this year. although the skaters were not my pics, I thought it was fair.

 

[fairly4]

It depended on what you like.
Overall--Alissa versus jumps,
Personally I think Rachel skated better last year, but this year in the free with a bit more maturity.

 

[demarinis5]

I was the first to congratulate Alissa on her win and I was very happy for her. Her SP was a knockout not so much her LP. After re-watching Alissa and Rachael's LP a little voice keeps saying that Alissa LP scores were bit inflated and Rachael should have won the title. JMO

 

[Mathman]

For what it's worth , under ordinal judging it would have come out like this (assuming placements in the SP and LP remained the same.)

Flatt (2nd and 2nd)
Czisny (1st and 3rd)
Zhang (3rd and 4th)
Wagner (12th and 1st)
Nagasu (6th and 5th)
Hacker (5th and 6th)

One criticism of the IJS is that it takes the drama out of the finale when someone racks up such big point lead in the SP that they can coast home.

 

[chuckm]

I was the first to congratulate Alissa on her win and I was very happy for her. Her SP was a knockout not so much her LP. After re-watching Alissa and Rachael's LP a little voice keeps saying that Alissa LP scores were bit inflated and Rachael should have won the title. JMO

Alissa's FS PCS scores were WAY inflated. With Czisny receiving PCS scores more accurately reflecting her performance, the title would have gone to Rachael.

I just hope that Rachael (who happens to be a very smart cookie) has gotten the message that she needs to choose music to which she can relate, sell that music to the audience, maybe take some ballet lessons (to improve her posture), and skate faster. She will then be a formidable competitor for the US title next season.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I have a lot of respect for young Rachael but this wasn't her year. She was better to watch last season.

Yeah, I felt that way too. Her programs last season were more appealing.