The Worst Programs... | Page 6 | Golden Skate

The Worst Programs...

Obviously this is OT, but you're a mod and you started it:p Mathman, you say (after KA-BOOM!:laugh:), "BTW, that piano-playing scene in The Pianist never happened either in real life or in the book." I don't know about real life, but in the 1999 hardcover book version of THE PIANIST by Wladyslaw Szpilman--which was originally entitled DEATH OF A CITY when published in the late 1940s--the scene I described and that is in the film is very much in the book. The only substantive difference is that Szpilman plays a different piece by Chopin in the movie than he describes himself playing in the book. Go to Chapter 18, "Nocturne in C sharp minor," page 177 in my hardcover copy, and you will read:
"The officer pointed to the instrument.

'Play something!'

Hadn't it occurred to him that the sound of the piano would instantly attract all the SS men in the vicinity? He obviously sensed my fears, since he added reassuringly, 'It's all right, you can play. If anyone comes, you hide in the larder and I'll say it was me trying the instrument out.'

When I placed my fingers on the keyboard they shook. So this time, for a change, I had to buy my life by playing the piano!...I played Chopin's Nocturne in C sharp minor." And it goes on, pretty much the way it is in the film, though not verbatim.

So I don't know which version of the book you read, but that's what's in mine:p But more on that point later.

As for the "meaning" of Szpilman's story, in fact there was much controversy over how much of the movie "The Pianist" was Szpilman's story and how much was Roman Polanski's story, who, as we know, also survived WWII hiding as a Polish Jew. Personally, I never expect to see "the book" in the movie version and I don't care whose story in "fact" is told in the film as long as the film conveys a deeper or transcendant human truth appropriate to the situation. To me, once a character and/or situation is lifted from a book, turned into a screenplay, and then further into a film, those characters and situations are just the paint the director, cinematographer, editor, and actors use to make their "play out of light."

For example, Kubrick's film version of "Lolita" sways way away from the book--and Nabokov even wrote the screenplay, which Kubrick of course ignored--while Adrian Lyne's film of "Lolita" is very faithful to the book. Some days I prefer Kubrick's version, some day's Lyne's. I think they're both good.

As for Wladyslaw Szpilman's actual story, only he knows what really happened and he's dead. This was Roman Polanski's interpretation of the book. I read the book again a couple of months ago and I didn't get the same meanings from the book that you did. I remember someone once saying about books, "The story is what takes place in the reader's mind. There is nothing objective when it comes to meaning."

Anyway, I was just using the scene in the film "The Pianist" to explain why I wasn't moved by Michelle's Olympic performance of FOG but was moved by the medal ceremony.

So if we or others want to talk about this more should we start a new thread in Le Cafe or will people put up with one or two more posts of digression?:)
Rgirl
I got the 100th post, nyah, nyah!
 
Rgirl said:
What gets me is a situation of profound emotion and human vulnerability where the feelings come through the movement, music, acting, or whatever, but not through the person.

Brilliantly put, Twinnie. When an artist "emotes," I tend to look away. It's embarrassing. I used to tell my singing students not to make "singer's face" for the same reason. I felt that this is what Michelle did with Tosca at Nats during the last minute. Yes, it lit a fire under her but I found her expressions over-the-top and embarrassing. On the other hand, I loved her FOG exhibition piece because I felt she'd have done anything NOT to cry but couldn't help it. She didn't have "cry face" on--there just happened to be tears on her face at the end of the program. At any rate, I wasn't moved by the tears but by her heartfelt and genuinely sad performance.
 
Rgirl said:
But putting all that aside, I don't like what a character on "Six Feet Under" described as "that Lilith Fair crap.";) Gabillions of people obviously love it, but my genes just can't handle it.
I have the same bad gene. For that reason, I'm not a big fan of Champions on Ice or Exhibitions, where the skaters get to indulge in their favorite "girl music."

For example, in the movie "The Pianist," when Wladyslaw Szpilman's has been found hiding by a Nazi officer and has to essentially play the piano for his life, the scene is directed so that neither the actor playing Szpilman's nor the actor playing the German officer express any emotion. It all comes out through the music and the situation. If Polanski had directed it to have Szpilman start weeping and the German officer moved to tears, it would have been over the top, untrue, for me.
In a similar vein, I think Spielberg ruined Schindler's List when he gave Schindler his Big Speech, instead of having the camera observe Schindler silently watching the Jews leave, maybe shaking a few hands.
 
I guess I am the only one that is drawn to "over-the-top" emotional gestures at times. I'll use Realtorgal's example of Michelle's "Tosca" to explain when I feel it is appropriate and effective. I would say that these dramatic moves can sometimes seem contrived and forced in most competitive situations, but given the right mood and set of circumstances they can also become brilliant and moving assets. Michelle had been underperforming all year and was skating as the underdog, so she let everything go and her heart was spilling out through the moves at the end. So, I find there is a time for subtlety and understated grace and expression, but there are also times where sweeping gestures and emotionally charged interpretation can be just as effective (if not more so). Certainly, it is a matter of personal opinion and taste I suppose, but I'd rather see the skaters themselves perform as they will based on the emotional atmosphere, etc. The variety of styles and even of expression levels/techniques is one reason why I love skating. You don't always get the same thing, even from one skater. Perhaps Michelle will have mistakes and "Tosca" will be flat at Worlds, and the dramatic movements and expressions at the end will seem "over-the-top" in that particular performance...but lets see what the moment calls for.
 
Rgirl, well you didn't have to humiliate me by listing the very line and page that prove I'm an idiot!:laugh:;)

OK, I will retreat to this position. The fact that Szpilman played the piano for Hosenfelt made so little impression on me that I forgot it. I think the reason that Hosenfelt helped him was because of Hosenfelt's remorse for the Nazi attrocities and for his part in them, and had nothing to do with whether Szpilman could play the piano or not. (This view is supported, I think, in Hosenfelt's diaries.)

I still think that the heart of the matter (in the book) was:

"I will never forgive myself that I was unable to do anything to save them."

This is a quote not from the book but from an interview given by the pianist years later. The context is that Szpilman went on with his life after the war and thrust all of these feelings out of his mind until in old age he could do so no longer. Thus these feelings are not made explicit in the book (written in 1945); to me, they scream from every page even so. But during and for many years after his ordeal he had to put himself on emotional auto-pilot to get through each day.

Here is a link to three Szpilman interviews given to the press late in life:

http://www.szpilman.net/

That quote is what sticks in my mind. And I think the reason is that feelings of crippling guilt comprise a universal human emotion that few lives are so pure as to be free from. Most of us are not talented musicians, and most of us, thank God, do not have to live through the Holocost. To me the book is not about either music or Nazi Poland. It's value lies instead in the juxtaposition of the indomitability of the human spirit, and the price we pay for it's survival.

AND ANOTHER THING...:laugh:

I TOTALLY agree with Bronzeisgolden about the Truth with a capital T in Michelle's Orgasm of Joy in the last minute of her Tosca performance at Nationals. (Isn't that the name of the fourth movement of Beethoven's Ninth?)

Why else would we watch figure skating except in the hope of being emotionally ravished like that?

Mathman
 
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Mathman said:
I TOTALLY agree with Bronzeisgolden about the Truth with a capital T in Michelle's Orgasm of Joy in the last minute of her Tosca performance at Nationals. (Isn't that the name of the fourth movement of Beethoven's Ninth?)

Why else would we watch figure skating except in the hope of being emotionally ravished like that?Mathman

For no other reason than MK can make such emotional responses in her fans and the causual viewers. Non Kwan fans may block that.

Do you think MK could deal with Wagner's Lieberstod? - not easy.

Joe
 
Joesitz said:
Do you think MK could deal with Wagner's Lieberstod? - not easy.

Joe
Sure, the second 3Z would time perfectly to the climax, and she could do a great scratch spin to the very end of the music.
 
Yazmeen said:
AP McDonough's "Swan" Not that it was a bad program but she skated it so badly and looked so miserable the whole time. It was like she was holding up a sign saying "Please make my mother stop making me do this!!!!"

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Perfect description! When she finally finds that perfect program for her though it will be spectacular!
 
I love The Pianist and Adrien Brody is a terrific actor... I'd love to see Plushenko skate to this music...
 
Koroleva said:
I love The Pianist and Adrien Brody is a terrific actor... I'd love to see Plushenko skate to this music...

That would be really interesting to see, Plushenko even looks like Adrien Brody somewhat.:D
 
lulu said:
That would be really interesting to see, Plushenko even looks like Adrien Brody somewhat.:D

Yes! He would have to dye his hair black... :laugh: kidding, but I do think he could interpret it very well.

We need more Chopin in skating.
 
Joesitz said:
Do you think MK could deal with Wagner's Lieberstod? - not easy.

Joe
As much I think she should finally try something totally different I believe a choice like this is asking too much of her. :laugh:

As for Fog: I guess it's not even the prgram in itself I can't stand, I mean, after all it's just another piece of her usual sugar sweet Disneyland-skating. It's her "hey-it-wasn't-planned-that-way"-attitude, the gold dress, the title of the song, the "tears". Just right for one of those boring TV fluff tributes (movies) about skaters.

Anke
 
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remember Sting

Those of you who have dismissed the song "Fields of Gold" as "Lilith fair crap" have got to stop. It's not the oblique gender bigotry that concerns me. I'm just worried about Sting's mental health. Everyone seems to have forgotten that he is the author and original performer of that little ditty.

I won't have you upsetting Sting by implying he writes "girly songs". After all, he has demonstrated his virility by siring a sizable family. Sting ain't no sissy-boy. And I'll bitch-slap the first one who says he is. :D
 
Rgirl said:
But putting all that aside, I don't like what a character on "Six Feet Under" described as "that Lilith Fair crap.";) Gabillions of people obviously love it, but my genes just can't handle it. Music like that literally hurts my ears. Nothing against Eva Cassidy, who was obviously a gifted singer; FOG just wasn't the kind of music I like. I didn't much like Sting's version of it either.
You see, Humbaba (welcome and love your name), Sting was in on it from the start.;)
Rgirl
 
Germanice said:
As for Fog: I guess it's not even the prgram in itself I can't stand, I mean, after all it's just another piece of her usual sugar sweet Disneyland-skating. It's her "hey-it-wasn't-planned-that-way"-attitude, the gold dress, the title of the song, the "tears". Just right for one of those boring TV fluff tributes (movies) about skaters.

Anke

Actually, I felt sorry for her skating to that piece in a gold dress at the Olympic exhibition--like she had been expecting to win the gold, whereby the outfit and song would have been approrpriate. As it turned out, it was just too full of irony.:cry:
 
My list of worsts (including, but not limited to);
Anything performed by the following: Candeloro, Weiss, Slutskaya, Cohen, Butyraskaya (sp), Bonaly.
 
Just my $0.02
1. Figure skating is a sport (artistic sport), so any pograms should be appreciated from both the art and the athletic side. FOG is a wonderful program, great flow, long sweeping edges, and spiral galore. I like the 10/01-memorial performance the best.

2. On the artistic side, I believe in all her FOG performances, Michelle strikes a good balance between let go and restrain, her emotions did not get in the way of her skating. I don’t think FOG is too minced, at least compare to some of Oksana’s programs, I think most Oksana fans should be able to appreciate programs that are a bit on the emotional side? MK let go the tears at SLC after she finished the program, and if the cameras were not focused on her face no one would even know. I wasn’t at SLC, did she cry during the actual skating? I speculate not, OTOH if she managed to land all those triple jumps in the midst of tears then that was quite an achievement. Besides, I don’t know how many times I have seen athletes totally letting go of their emotions after or even during the game. How many times have we seen Tiger pump his fist, Spreewell attempted to do a number on his coach’s neck, skaters totally letting go and crash others on purpose. Oh I mean the hockey players of course ;)

3. I have read very different reactions to MK’s tears. Some avid fans are moved to wrap their heart around Michelle, they are ready to slay dragons for her. Anti fans like GI absolutely delighted in MK’s apparent sadness, or nitpicking everything from the title of the song (which originated from sting) the color of the dress (which BTW, is appropriate to the contend of FOG, OTOH Kostner has a costume from 03 season with practically the same cut and color, and I don’t see anyone nit picking Carolina) Another interesting observation is that some of the very same fans that are so supportive of Tara, and Sarah totally let go after their performances find it difficulty to accept Michelle’s tears of letting go? (On the record, I never have a problem with Tara or Sarah’s emotion let go)

4. Many artists totally let go (if they are allowed to) after their performances, fortunately or unfortunately the cameras do not catch those moments. I bet most singers do that after a 5-hour opera. Some artists were not allowed to express their emotions after their performances, e.g. the singers of the Verdi requiem at Terizen. I wonder if they would totally let go of their emotions if they were allowed to.

http://www.orsymphony.org/news/0304/0806_defiantrequiem.html

I wonder if Richter, Rostropovich, and Oistrakh had tears on their faces after their concert if they were allowed to.
“This fabled 1969 recording of the Beethoven 'Triple Concerto' brought together for the first time Herbert von Karajan (conducting the Berlin Philharmonic) and three of the most legendary instrumentalists of the day. To give an indication of how wondrous the results of this collaboration were, consider that when the concert was to be repeated in Moscow, the Russian authorities first barred Mstislav Rostropovich from playing (because of his support of Alexander Solzhenitsyn in the Russian press) then reinstated him after both David Oistrakh and Sviatoslav Richter refused to play with any other cellist. Rostropovich later observed that those who witnessed the concert remember it to this day, for it was an occasion when music won over oppression”
MK lives in a free country; she does not have to learn to hold back all tears. Letting go of some tears (in a restrained manner) at the end of a performance is consistent with the culture of sports, and art.
 
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Re: remember Sting

humbaba said:
Those of you who have dismissed the song "Fields of Gold" as "Lilith fair crap" have got to stop. It's not the oblique gender bigotry that concerns me. I'm just worried about Sting's mental health. Everyone seems to have forgotten that he is the author and original performer of that little ditty.

I won't have you upsetting Sting by implying he writes "girly songs". After all, he has demonstrated his virility by siring a sizable family. Sting ain't no sissy-boy. And I'll bitch-slap the first one who says he is. :D

I love Sting. :love: Now maybe if she would have skated to him... ;)
 
Disclaimer: I don’t have a master degree in music; I am just an average concertgoer, and a way below average vocal recital attendee. I don’t know what is a “singer’s face”

I observe that most singers emote with their face when the piece calls for it. Of course the degree of emoting has to be appropriate to the music. When one is singing a monophony plainchant, there maybe no or just minimal facial emoting with a raised eyebrow, or eyes focusing on heaven (or the ceiling). When one is singing Cignus ustus cantat ,The Roast Swan from Carmina Burana, I imagine some painful emoting is in order. Everything related operas are over the top, the music, the costumes, and the acting etc. So why should a skater using opera music be different. I know MK was not trying to tell the story of Tosca, but she is using dramatic opera music, so I am not embarrassed by her emoting, I am actually very proud of her achievement. I think the emotions from the last minute of Tosca were genuine. Come on, she just kicked everyone’s butt, and she was not supposed to win, didn’t uncle Dick and auntie Peggy just write her off? I watched the Tosca program again; I am convinced Michelle just had a hungry expression on her face that was all. She was probably thinking about the roast duck feast they had prepared for her. She was just telling herself, OK, finish the footwork (or according to MM the “victory lap”) the yummy roast duck is waiting.
 
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