# Top Senior Men jumps traits (Height, Speed, Prer, Delay)

#### Mathman

Record Breaker
Voronov is king!

At least of the triple Axel and quad toe. :yes:

#### el henry

##### Fangirl of men’s spirals and split jumps
Record Breaker
Yes, I thought at least the Vornonov fans should be happy:agree:

I don’t personally think these statistics are relevant to the actual judging or watching of a program, but wow, this website should did a lot of work:thumbsup:

#### Rissa

Record Breaker
I'm dumb and I don't read Russian, so can anyone tell me how it's possible to have both massive prerotation and delay in rotation?

#### yume

Record Breaker
I'm dumb and I don't read Russian, so can anyone tell me how it's possible to have both massive prerotation and delay in rotation?

Good question.

#### nussnacker

##### one and only
Record Breaker
I'm dumb and I don't read Russian, so can anyone tell me how it's possible to have both massive prerotation and delay in rotation?

I think the issue may be: 1) he averages everything and 2) there are mistakes in calculating prerotation (he wrote that margin of a mistake is too big and that he is possibly wrong)
I think he actually discusses prerotation well in his blog (maybe it can answer your question)
He wrote that prerotation isn't defined anywhere, it's hard to understand how to count it every single time, where does it begin? do we count it by the way the body moved or the way the skating foot is turned?
Some skaters are flexible and rotate their bodies, but their toe pick remains in the same position, and then there's the opposite, when the lower part of the body rotates faster than the upper body, so he finds it hard to strictly define prerotation.
Sometimes a certain part of the body rotates faster than the other one.
So he showed 2 extremes: 1) where Lazukin's body is heavily prerotated, but his foot is actually not and is pointing at a different direction.
2) where Anna's foot is already in the air and turned but her body is lagging behind in rotation.
So they somehow try to find middle ground and say not to count on them as a reliable source for prerotations.

#### Ulrica

On the Ice
So is the height supposed to be an average of the season, or from the highest they jumped that particular one on the season?

#### mrrice

Record Breaker
Patrick Chan and Todd Eldredge also had great distance in their jumps. It's very impressive to see in person.

#### Elucidus

##### Match Penalty
I'm dumb and I don't read Russian, so can anyone tell me how it's possible to have both massive prerotation and delay in rotation?
Maybe you don't understand what "delay in rotation" is? This term means the lag between take off and moment when a skater reach optimal body position where he can begin rotation with maximum speed (straight closed legs etc.). The bigger this delay is - the harder it is to fully rotate a jump and the less effective your jumping technique is. On other hand skaters with big delay creates this floaty feeling when they "hangs" in the air during jump. Why it should depend on a prer though? While during a prer jump's rotation is going on already - it's far from optimal body position and maximum rotation speed at that stage. So whether the skater have big prer or small - in theory it shouldn't affect how large delay he has.

So is the height supposed to be an average of the season, or from the highest they jumped that particular one on the season?
An average.

#### Rissa

Record Breaker
Maybe you don't understand what "delay in rotation" is? This term means the lag between take off and moment when a skater reach optimal body position where he can begin rotation with maximum speed (straight closed legs etc.). The bigger this delay is - the harder it is to fully rotate a jump and the less effective your jumping technique is. On other hand skaters with big delay creates this floaty feeling when they "hangs" in the air during jump. Why it should depend on a prer though? While during a prer jump's rotation is going on already - it's far from optimal body position and maximum rotation speed at that stage. So whether the skater have big prer or small - in theory it shouldn't affect how large delay he has.

An average.

Yeah, apparently I don't understand. Can you provide me with the official source of your definition? Because, frankly, it's illogical, and if it's indeed the official one, then I guess it's time forme to give up on trying to understand ISU rules.

#### Mathman

Record Breaker
Yeah, apparently I don't understand. Can you provide me with the official source of your definition? Because, frankly, it's illogical, and if it's indeed the official one, then I guess it's time forme to give up on trying to understand ISU rules.

To me, the part that is hard to understand is exactly how prerotation is measured. In actual ISU judging it is hardly ever called, and when it is noted (for instance on the second jump of some combinations) there does not seem to be much consistency or agreement about it.

As for delay in rotation, though, I think that Elucidus offered a pretty good description. In practice, I think that the bullet point for delay in rotation is given only for the delayed (single) Axel. This jump looks quite different from a regular double or triple Axel (besides being only a single. )

Here is Yuzuru Hanyu's "delayed Axel jump." (Dorothy Hamill was also famous for having this jump in her repertroire.)

To my inexpert eye, it looks like the skater, once in the air, sticks his leg out to inhibit rotation, then draws it in to accelerate the rotation after a quarter second or so. (Sort of like pulling in your arms to make a spin go faster.) I think that this is what Elucidus is referring to when he talks bout the delay in achieving the proper rapid spinning-in-the-air position.

So I do think that it is possible to prerotate a jump (if that means rotating on the ice some number of degrees before take-off) but still achieve the "delayed rotation" effect in the air. In other words, the pre-rotation on the ice does not really carry over into angular momentum once in the air.)

Maybe something like that?

Anyway, no one would do a delayed Axel in competition. You get way lfewer points than a triple Axel or even a double.

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#### TontoK

##### Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
As for delay in rotation, though, I think that Elucidus offered a pretty good description. In practice, I think that the bullet point for delay in rotation is given only for the delayed (single) Axel. This jump looks quite different from a regular double or triple Axel (besides being only a single. )

Here is Yuzuru Hanyu's "delayed Axel jump." (Dorothy Hamill was also famous for having this jump in her repertroire.)

On a different thread recently, several of us seasoned conributors fondly remembered a lot of single delayed axels from by-gone days. For a moment, I thought we'd form a fan club of some sort.

The single axel will never make a comeback under the current rules, but I'd love it if they would allow it as a choreographic element.

The best ones got oohs-and-aahs back in the day. Fun to see.

#### cohen-esque

Final Flight
I think in competition delayed triple Lutzes are most common, and less so Axels and flips. But not a really delayed entry like the delayed open Axels, more of a pause in tightening up the position in the ascent.

In practice your pre-rotation on ice won’t carry into the air, but semantically it does seem odd to refer to a jump as having “delayed rotation” because of how it reaches a point in the air, after a full half revolution or more could already have completed. Particularly in comparison to a jump without excessive pre-rotation but with the same delay.

Especially as neither of these things actually has an official definition.

#### Mathman

Record Breaker
The single axel will never make a comeback under the current rules, but I'd love it if they would allow it as a choreographic element.

GS poster GKelly has suggested that the ISU could include a "small jump sequence," where all this cool stuff (Walley, toeless Lutz, inside Axel) could receive some points. It could also include non-rotational jumps like stag jumps, Russian split jumps or Mazurkas (Sonja Henie had a huge one).

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Record Breaker

#### Mathman

Record Breaker
I think in competition delayed triple Lutzes are most common ...

That makes sense. In fact, it seems like all Lutzes would have some delay in rotation while the skater overcomes the counter-rotation of the entry.

I am probably wrong about that, though -- that ought to make a quad Lutz impossible.

#### TallyT

##### Here for the High Lord of Extra
Record Breaker
On a different thread recently, several of us seasoned conributors fondly remembered a lot of single delayed axels from by-gone days. For a moment, I thought we'd form a fan club of some sort.

The single axel will never make a comeback under the current rules, but I'd love it if they would allow it as a choreographic element.

The best ones got oohs-and-aahs back in the day. Fun to see.

Count me in. Yuzuru puts one in his gala piece sometimes (Notte Stellata), and I could sit and watch it on rotation for ages, I adore a delayed single axel, it is so beautiful.

#### medoroa

On the Ice
He wrote that prerotation isn't defined anywhere, it's hard to understand how to count it every single time, where does it begin? do we count it by the way the body moved or the way the skating foot is turned?

All good reasons for fans to probably stop talking about it like it's a "thing" that is actually defined and definitely exists!

#### Ic3Rabbit

##### Patineuse élite et professionnelle
Record Breaker
By the way, Evan Lysacek is an example of a skater whose triple Axel had a lot of pre-rotation. He never lost any points for it, though.

Yes there and early on in his Sr career. IIRC though he retooled his 3A entrance leading up to the 2010 games.

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