True confessions of a skating kind

[BronzeisGolden]

Thvudragon,

I completely agree about B&S's program vs. W&S's, but I felt that the errors in B&S's program were major ones and negated many of the advantages they might have had. It is too bad that the brilliance of their beautiful SLC performance has been somewhat marred and overlooked because of that damn scandal!

 

[STL_Blues_fan]

"Why only Denkova and Staviski? All they did was sign it and hand it in. Did you even consider that all the ice dancers except C&S and L&A signed that petition? Did you even consider that the planners of that petition were actually Tatiana Navka and Alexandr Zhulin? "

From what I read and heard (as in magazines and TV, not on discussion boards), Albena and Maxim WERE the originators. I am not sure where you read that it was Zhulin. I think most people agreed with me here that it was indeed Albena.

What bothered me the most is that in the history of figure skating, especially in the ice dance, there were so many questionable placements - but the petition was started only when an Israeli team was involved on the favorable side. It is one thing to sign it, another is to INITIATE it. Also, not everybody signed it.

I found this article after a quick search, I am sure many more will surface to support my original statement.

http://www.theskateblade.com/features/articles/020913.htm

Cheers, Yana

 

[BravesSkateFan]

1. I like Naomi Lang better than Peter Tchernyshev (and I'm a girl).

2. I think Jaime Sale looks and acts stuck up

3. I don't get what's so great about Belbin and Agosto...they look sloppy to me.

4. So does Plushenko

5. I like fluff

6. I don't think Mike Weiss is cocky. I think he's a good skater and is confident in his abilities and not afraid to say so. I see nothing wrong with how he handles PR.

7. I&Z were robbed at the Olys. They deserved to be placed above T&M

8. Tatiana Navka and Tanith Belbin look really fake..they need to tone down the makeup

9. I've never seen skating live. (I can't afford it)

10. I think Shen and Zhao are the greatest pairs team ever. I love G&G, B&S etc, but nobody touches me like S&Z...i cry at every one of their programs.

11. I wanted S&P to win the Olympics, but now I'm glad they didn't. They soured me with thier attitude during the whole scandal...besides B&S skated better that night.

 

[lulu]

I really like Shishkova & Naumov.

I do appreciate B&E's "big tricks" but there is no way that they should have won Bronze in 1992-K&N deserved it; and I don't think it was as strong of a case in 1994, but I really perfered S&N.

In SLC there was absolutely no contest (IMO) B&S won hands down.

I love both M&D + K&D think that these teams have sometimes been underrated. I would love to see Artur with a lucrative coaching/choreographing career.

I also thought I&Z should have been higher at the Olympics

I have no problem with the 1998 Pairs podium: K&D deserved Gold, B&S deserved Silver & W&S deserved Bronze.

Even though I'm a fan of two of G&P's biggest rivals, K&O and U&Z, as well as G&P, I see no evidence that any "fix" was in to get Pasha all of those medals.

I think she is absolulely gorgeous-but I've never gotten into Maria Buturskaya.

I can't stand T&D's "The Planets" routine. Blasphemy-I know.

Out of the top 5 pairs in the world right now, the ones I like the most of Petrova & Tikhnov-and that is based mostly on their personalities than anything else. (personalities off the ice )

I want B&A to do a serious ie "non perky" routine-but I'm not sure if they would be able to pull it off.

Very tacky confession: I have at times wanted a skater not do very well if it was looking like they might beat my favorite. Here is the thing though-everytime I've ever done that, the "other skater" does an absolutely awesome job-and my favorite falters. :sheesh:

At times, I think I take skating & the results more seriously than the actual competitors.

 

[thvudragon]

"Why only Denkova and Staviski? All they did was sign it and hand it in. Did you even consider that all the ice dancers except C&S and L&A signed that petition? Did you even consider that the planners of that petition were actually Tatiana Navka and Alexandr Zhulin? "

From what I read and heard (as in magazines and TV, not on discussion boards), Albena and Maxim WERE the originators. I am not sure where you read that it was Zhulin. I think most people agreed with me here that it was indeed Albena.

I found this article after a quick search, I am sure many more will surface to support my original statement.

http://www.theskateblade.com/features/articles/020913.htm

That article is blatantly wrong. The North American media of course, gets the facts wrong again. The article also implies that they wanted to express their suspisions of rigged results. Not true. The petition was about their strong disagreement with the results. To say that you know because of ABC, etc, is folly. How many times have they gotten facts wrong before? Albena was an easy target because she was the visual of the petition.
http://www.arthurwerner.narod.ru/2003chait.html

If you bother to translate the article, it gives another story. Werner is known for his outrageous articles, but he points out how it was Tatiania Navka and Zhulin who in fact organized the petition and Albena Denkova was convinced to turn it in. Albena was not the originator. I'll try to quote Russian author Werner here, the translation may be rough.

This comparison not by chance: any vital troubles [Tatiana Navka] prefers to decide without scandal, being noiselessly selected to the offender and just as noiselessly delivering decisive attack. Even in Nagano, she knew how to put Bulgarian dancer Albena Denkova in front of herself, which she threw in the battle with full knowledge in the naive hope for the same interference ISU, as in the case with the pairs scandal in Salt Lake City, the dancers gave management of the ISU a petition-
protest, which was signed by all participants in the ice dancing competition of the 2002 World Championships (with exception, the Israelis themselves and pairs Irina Lobacheva/Ilya Averbukh and Elena Grushina/Ruslan Goncharov).

So, we have two different accounts and believe mine is true. I'll try to dig up some more articles, but I have always understood that it was Navka and Zhulin who actually did the footwork with the petition, with much help from others like Naomi Lang, and that Albena was just selected to turn it in.

Either way, there is still no reason you should be singling her out. Every signer played an equal part. All expressed their disagreement with the result and put themselves up. To not like Denkova and Staviski, despite their beautiful skating, because you don't understand the situation, is unfortunate. Hopefully you will show that you are actually a fan of Ice Dance.

What bothered me the most is that in the history of figure skating, especially in the ice dance, there were so many questionable placements - but the petition was started only when an Israeli team was involved on the favorable side. It is one thing to sign it, another is to INITIATE it. Also, not everybody signed it.

I don't think it was because it was an Israeli team. It was simply because they thought the result was so wrong. C&S are known for their speed, but their basics were not close to D&V's. They have much shallower edges, and rely heavily on the use of toepicks to gain speed. Sure Galit's posture is better than Margarita's, but their flaws far outway any positives they have against D&V. Again, the skaters were expressing their strong disagreement with the result, that's it. I don't think it's because of some anti-Israeli sentiment.

TV

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I don't think it was because it was an Israeli team. It was simply because they thought the result was so wrong. C&S are known for their speed, but their basics were not close to D&V's. They have much shallower edges, and rely heavily on the use of toepicks to gain speed. Sure Galit's posture is better than Margarita's, but their flaws far outway any positives they have against D&V. Again, the skaters were expression their strong disagreement with the result, that's it. I don't think it's because of some anti-Israeli sentiment.

Thank you!

 

[thvudragon]

I have always understood that it was Navka and Zhulin who actually did the footwork with the petition,

PML, did I just say Navka and footwork in the same sentance?!

TV

 

[icenut84]

I have no problem with the 1998 Pairs podium: K&D deserved Gold, B&S deserved Silver & W&S deserved Bronze.

I think so too. A while back I watched B&S's and W&S's LPs back to back, watching carefully and making some notes on stuff. I agree B&S deserved to be ahead. They did make some mistakes, but W&S made *many* mistakes/errors and their programme was much easier than B&S's, who I also think had the edge artistically.

 

[taf2002]

I'll be the dissenting voice. I thought B&S's mistakes were severe enough that Ina & Dunjgen should have won the bronze & B&S 4th. At some point you have to say that better overall skills be damned, the deductions outweigh the good. If not, why is Sarah Hughes Oly champ? I find it hard to believe that people think her skills are better than Michelle's & Irina's.

I also think the petition had absolutely nothing to do with the fact it was the Israeli team. After all, C&S moved up the ranks extremely fast, IMO ahead of better teams. D&V are gorgeous skaters with IMO better skills and deserved better at the Olys & at 02 Worlds.

 

[thvudragon]

I'll be the dissenting voice. I thought B&S's mistakes were severe enough that Ina & Dunjgen should have won the bronze & B&S 4th. At some point you have to say that better overall skills be damned, the deductions outweigh the good. If not, why is Sarah Hughes Oly champ? I find it hard to believe that people think her skills are better than Michelle's & Irina's.

It's not that her skills are better, it's just that her program was that much more difficult. She was head over heels in regards to transitions and choreo while her competition had in comparison in those departments, pathetic programs. Now, I'm no fan of Hughes, but I will give her credit in that department. Her jumps though, were very flawed with 4 triples cheated 1/4 or more. Many judges didn't notice (and I think it's very difficult to tell real time) and there you have your result. She may have had lower quality jumps, but she had a superier program.

TV

 

[mariana]

"Why only Denkova and Staviski? All they did was sign it and hand it in. Did you even consider that all the ice dancers except C&S and L&A signed that petition? Did you even consider that the planners of that petition were actually Tatiana Navka and Alexandr Zhulin? "

From what I read and heard (as in magazines and TV, not on discussion boards), Albena and Maxim WERE the originators. I am not sure where you read that it was Zhulin. I think most people agreed with me here that it was indeed Albena.

From what I saw on TV at that time (I live in Argentina, so ESPN was my only source of information at that time), the first signatures on the petition where from Naomi Lang and Peter Tchernyshev (ho where Zhulin students at that time). So, if indeed Albena and Maxim where the originators, why didn't they signed it first?

 

[berthes ghost]

It's not that her skills are better, it's just that her program was that much more difficult. She was head over heels in regards to transitions and choreo while her competition had in comparison in those departments, pathetic programs.

Huh?

If her program was sooo much better, why did 4 of the 9 judges give 1st place to Irina with less tech content? Oh right, cheating judges.

I don't remember what mistakes if any Sarah made at Nats, but wasn't she 3rd despite MK's winning "pathetic" LP?

She definately was cleaner than MK at SA, when her "that much more difficult" program was voted 2nd place by the majority of judges. Oh right, cheating judges.

Wasn't she clean at SC while MK and Irina faultered? What was the split there, another 5/4?

Wasn't she 3rd again at the GPF?

I appaluad your enthusiasm. It's just a shame that most skating judges don't share it.

 

[thvudragon]

If her program was sooo much better, why did 4 of the 9 judges give 1st place to Irina with less tech content? Oh right, cheating judges.

Sarah may have had more choreography, but Irina's was better. Irina had better edges, better posture, and cleaner jumps. She also had more difficult spins, CiSt, and SpSt. I can argue both sides and I actually agree with Slutskaya first.

I don't remember what mistakes if any Sarah made at Nats, but wasn't she 3rd despite MK's winning "pathetic" LP?

That was Hughes old version of her 02 LP, the ultimate anticlimactic program. IIRC, she had 7 triples, but maybe 4 of the clean. At Nats, I thought it was very noticable that her jumps were cheated. At Olys, not much so. This program did not have as much choreography as the Oly program, and I thought it was far worse. Still had great transitions though, but the program was so dull and innefective.

She definately was cleaner than MK at SA, when her "that much more difficult" program was voted 2nd place by the majority of judges. Oh right, cheating judges.

Again, different version of the program. This was the original, boring and anticlimactic. Michelle's jumps were fully rotated, Hughes' weren't. You can argue both sides with Hughes' 3/3 and extra double axel vs MK's single axel, and there was that split. The Referree and the Ass. Referee placed Hughes first. Also, since when have I ever blindly claimed judges were cheating? Were you insinuating that?

Wasn't she clean at SC while MK and Irina faultered? What was the split there, another 5/4?

Hughes had a 6 "triple" 3/3 program while Irina and MK did not skate up to par (with MK falling twice and only 1 failed combo). MK's skate was worse and Hughes skate was better than at SA so that explains that. Also, it depends on the judges. They may have credited Hughes more transitions and choreo (albeit bad choreo) more than Irina's better basics speed and quality in the jumps.

Wasn't she 3rd again at the GPF?

Again, the old version of Hughes 01-02 LP. This result, I found odd, but it all depends on the judges in that competition. They all have the ability to have different opinions. One could have seen Hughes flat program with bad choreo, and one could have seen one with 7 triples, and lots of choreo and transitions.

I appaluad your enthusiasm. It's just a shame that most skating judges don't share it.

Well, some do and some don't. I'm not going to identify with any one. I'm only trying to see things from all views and show how different opinions can affect placements.

TV

 

[berthes ghost]

Also, since when have I ever blindly claimed judges were cheating? Were you insinuating that?

No. I was speaking to a broader audience, and refering in part to the now infamous press conference afterward.

Your latest post seems much more even keeled, while the previous post I was responding too made it seem like Sarah's LP was leagues ahead of Irinas. Just not so in my book. Robin's programs have always been IMHO "overchoreographed". Her 03 SP is the most blatent: so much convoluted arm waving that doesn't mean anything in terms of actual skating. Everyone has their own taste, but IMHO Sarah's Oly LP was the most "forgettable" artistic statement since Kat's Broadway show tunes medley or 84. The whole is not always equal to the sum of it's parts, and I don't care how many MIFs there were, the program as a whole was Zzzzzz and "said" nothing.

 

[euterpe]

Sarah Hughes' program had one huge advantage over Kwan's and Slutskaya's: it was skated with spirit, fire and abandon, something I had never seen done before by Hughes, who had always been deliberate, cautious and restrained in her FS performances.

Kwan was tentative and skated the way Hughes usually did. Then she fell, and after the fall she skated more like her usual self, but it was too late: the fatal mistake had been made.

Slutskaya skated as if she had molasses in her boots. I have never seen her skate so slowly and lifelessly. Her mistake on the 3F was no doubt caused by her lack of speed going into the jump.

Both Kwan and Slutskaya looked like sleepwalkers after the exuberant performance of Hughes. That two judges placed Hughes 4th after the dull, flawed programs of Kwan, Slutskaya and Cohen, is just unbelievable.

 

[thvudragon]

No. I was speaking to a broader audience, and refering in part to the now infamous press conference afterward.

Your latest post seems much more even keeled, while the previous post I was responding too made it seem like Sarah's LP was leagues ahead of Irinas. Just not so in my book. Robin's programs have always been IMHO "overchoreographed". Her 03 SP is the most blatent: so much convoluted arm waving that doesn't mean anything in terms of actual skating. Everyone has their own taste, but IMHO Sarah's Oly LP was the most "forgettable" artistic statement since Kat's Broadway show tunes medley or 84. The whole is not always equal to the sum of it's parts, and I don't care how many MIFs there were, the program as a whole was Zzzzzz and "said" nothing.

PML, I generally agree! I've never really been a fan of Hughes, I was just seeing things from all perspecives. I'm like an analytical cubist! I will say though that Sarah's Oly version of her 02 LP is probably her best LP and her 03 SP is her best SP. God though, her 02 SP was one of the worst things I've ever seen. I guess though, that Hughes needed to "overchoreograph" her programs. She has many flaws in her skating, and that makes up for it I guess.

TV

 

[thvudragon]

Both Kwan and Slutskaya looked like sleepwalkers after the exuberant performance of Hughes. That two judges placed Hughes 4th after the dull, flawed programs of Kwan, Slutskaya and Cohen, is just unbelievable.

Or they could have seen that Hughes cheated 4 of her triples by 1/4 or more. It all depends on what the judges saw and how they weighed what.

TV

 

[berthes ghost]

I'm like an analytical cubist!

 

[sarahmistral]

I think Jenny Kirk will always be okay in singles, and that her true shot at brilliance is in pairs.

After the whole SLC scandal, it pains me to watch old tapes of B&S programs because of all they were put through. I just saw Chaplin and was pained by its beauty but also by what was in store for them, being forever linked to a pair that, IMO, was not golden as they were, rather than standing alone as champions...it irritates me to no end that they always seem to "pull even", or are judged that way, even now in professional competitions. If it could have gone either way, the scandal was uncalled for, Le Gougne fiasco and all.

Michelle and Morozov are like peaches and cream

Exacerbated patriotism in skating fandom, judging, in pretty much ANYTHING skating-related irritates me so much that I'm prone to root against overly hyped and gushed over national faves. I'm an unrepentant citizen of the world and feel the nation-state should go the way of the dinosaur, PARTICULARLY in an individual sport like skating.

I am in awe of Yukina Ota.

I haven't yet seen Sex Bomb. I haven't yet seen Bolero.

I wish Michelle would resurrect Rush and Miraculous Mandarin and that she would add a Morozov footwork sequence to SOTBS.

I have dreamed of being an Olympian at my geyser-ly age of 24. I've already choreographed my short program (ya never know, ya know?)

Along with Harry Potter, South Park, and tennis, figure skating (the doing and the watching) is my great escape.

Chris and Simon, the Eurosport Brits , are my commentating gods. No one else comes close. After listening to hours of live internet broadcast with them calling the skates, I couldn't recall a single instance in which they had nothing positive--yet firmly grounded in skating reality--to say about a skater's performance.

I think Terry Gannon should be exiled to Siberia (wait; they might not want him there! ), and I find him to be the most guilty of outright national bias (if it doesn't exist, folks, WHY is it that Dick, Peggy, and company can nitpick a spiral or extension that isn't as fabulous as Sasha's or Michelle's in a non American lady skater, but they can't ever comment on a triple of Michelle's or Sasha's that isn't as gigantic as Vika's, just to give one example that gnaws at me often? All things being fair, right?) Peter Carruthers I enjoy very much, perhaps because he shares my love of Yukina Ota and because he's a very well-rounded commentator who calls the skating rather than people's impressions of it, consistently. On a rating system of 1 to 10, 1 being worst and 10 being best, Terry=1, Peter=10.

I randomly practice loops and toe loops off-ice but may take years to dare as much on ice, though I have a timid waltz jump and a bunny hop.

There are millions more confessions, from everyone, I imagine, but I'll leave mine at this for now; I've enjoyed reading all of these very much!

Cheers,
Sarah

 

[Smiley]

i have always been a fan of sarah hughes, even before she won the olympics. i respect her for continuing her schooling while competing at such a high level!
i think that lindenmann deserved his bronze medal at worlds this past year. he skated his heart out and was one of the only men, including joubert, to do a clean short and long program! thats the sign of a true champion.
i am canadian and i think the whole slc scandal was blown bigger then it really was. jamie and david were good but elena and anton were better on that night. there was no need for whining and complaining (not by jamie and david but others) so that jamie and david were also awarded with the gold medal.
i love this new judging system and i think it will do wonders for our sport!
i love cynthia phaneuf and i think she did the right thing by going to junior worlds and getting that experience, even if it wasnt the placement she was looking for.
i think julia obertas is the best female pairs skater in the world today. she has charm and attitude.