U.S. Figure Skating reprimands, fines Rachael Flatt

[Mathman]

You don't see USFS publicizing disciplinary action often at all, so this had to be a most extraordinary case.

RD, don't you think that what was "extraordinary" about this case was the persistence with which Hersh pursued the story and the public ire that Frank Carroll brought to the table?

The USFSA did not "publicize" the decision. They responded to what appeared to be a string of badgering emails from Hersh by saying tersely, "Yes, we fined her. We will have nothing more to say about it."

Likewise, although the USFSA did not say anything in its announcement about losing 3 spots, skating badly, Mirai could have done better, etc. -- all of the news coverage emphasized those point, especially Hersh (and also Carroll). To me, it looks like a case of the newswriter creating news instead of reporting it.

 

[R.D.]

True, but if Rachael had skated perfectly and placed top5 or so and told the press "I'm so happy I was able to skate so well considering I had a torn muscle etc." We (including USFSA) would be
lauding her as a heroine.

Possibly...but isn't it much rarer to skate very well with an injury than to skate very badly with one? I feel it's almost like betting on winning the pick 4 lottery or something. It MIGHT happen, but involves too much risk and little reward (or chance of one, anyway).

 

[R.D.]

RD, don't you think that what was "extraordinary" about this case was the persistence with which Hersh pursued the story and the public ire that Frank Carroll brought to the table?

Not at all. In fact, I thought it was quite understandable. How else did you expect them to react? This is a girl who appeared to be seriously injured at least a week before the competition and chose not to say anything and instead grit it out. Of course the coach of the alternate is going to express frustration that his student didn't get a chance. Of course the reporter is going to do his job and pursue this developing story, like any other reporter would.

The USFSA did not "publicize" the decision. They responded to what appeared to be a string of badgering emails from Hersh by saying tersely, "Yes, we fined her. We will have nothing more to say about it."

And what exactly is "a string of badgering emails"? You make it sound as if he sent them like 5 messages every day from April to June begging for extra details. I only recall him tweeting 3 times that he initiated any contact with USFS in that time period.

Also, by notifying Hersh of their decision, effectively they DID publicize it. They were well aware that he was going to write about it. And, FYI, the news has been reported on Ice Network as well.

Likewise, although the USFSA did not say anything in its announcement about losing 3 spots, skating badly, Mirai could have done better, etc. -- all of the news coverage emphasized those point, especially Hersh (and also Carroll).

What's done is done. It would do absolutely no good to lament the woulda-coulda-shoulda point and would even backfire big time. I think the fine/reprimand for Flatt is enough. It would look foolish to say Nagasu would do better especially considering how she bombed worlds last year and did her part in costing us 3 spots for last season. She is no Kwan, believe it or not.

 

[janetfan]

RD, don't you think that what was "extraordinary" about this case was the persistence with which Hersh pursued the story and the public ire that Frank Carroll brought to the table?

The USFSA did not "publicize" the decision. They responded to what appeared to be a string of badgering emails from Hersh by saying tersely, "Yes, we fined her. We will have nothing more to say about it."

Likewise, although the USFSA did not say anything in its announcement about losing 3 spots, skating badly, Mirai could have done better, etc. -- all of the news coverage emphasized those point, especially Hersh (and also Carroll). To me, it looks like a case of the newswriter creating news instead of reporting it.

Part of the problem in USA is so few people care or are even aware of figure skating.

I agree with RD here and see no proof that Hersh badgered his way into a story.

And US Skating did not have to tell Hersh anything but chose to share this news with him which means US Skating wanted some type of attention brought to this matter.

Remember skating is supposed to be a "real sport." Do you have specific reasons to treat skating and Rachael in particular like she ia a pageant contestant and not an "elite athlete." :think:

It's no tlike Rachael is getting the "Lebron" treatment. :sheesh:

History shows us that controversial news can be good for skating in the USA. Unfortunately this story is not news and no one cares but skatingboard posters.

I think that is sadder than Rachael getting a mild slap across the wrist. Part of the problem here seems to be that Hersh was the only journalist in the whole country who thought this story was of interest.

How low can CoP skating sink in USA?

 

[Mathman]

History shows us that controversial news can be good for skating in the USA.

Unfortunately the publicity generated by this story is that figure skating is a sissy sport for pansies who are not tough enough to compete through pain, as in other sports.

To me, Rachael ends up looking like a warrior (if perhaps a headstrong and foolhardy one), and the other players in the drama end up looking like twerps.

"...and who, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

 

[Jammers]

Not at all. In fact, I thought it was quite understandable. How else did you expect them to react? This is a girl who appeared to be seriously injured at least a week before the competition and chose not to say anything and instead grit it out. Of course the coach of the alternate is going to express frustration that his student didn't get a chance. Of course the reporter is going to do his job and pursue this developing story, like any other reporter would.



And what exactly is "a string of badgering emails"? You make it sound as if he sent them like 5 messages every day from April to June begging for extra details. I only recall him tweeting 3 times that he initiated any contact with USFS in that time period.

Also, by notifying Hersh of their decision, effectively they DID publicize it. They were well aware that he was going to write about it. And, FYI, the news has been reported on Ice Network as well.



What's done is done. It would do absolutely no good to lament the woulda-coulda-shoulda point and would even backfire big time. I think the fine/reprimand for Flatt is enough. It would look foolish to say Nagasu would do better especially considering how she bombed worlds last year and did her part in costing us 3 spots for last season. She is no Kwan, believe it or not.

Agreed that Mirai bombed last year but even at her worst she would never have finished 12th like Rachael did. All she would have had to do was finish in the top 8 which was more then possible and at least she had two good legs to use unlike Rachael.

 

[Mathman]

I hope that Mirai makes the World team next year.

 

[colleen o'neill]

/\ Me too. I was gutted that she didn't make it this year.

 

[NMURA]

I might be wrong, but I do not see any evidence that the USFSA thinks this way.

On the contrary, every decision the USFSA makes is consistent with the position that they see their job like this. You stage a competition, U.S. Nationals. Whoever wins goes to Worlds.

If they wanted to “choose” who to send, they would have chosen Abbott and Rippon. They would have sent Inoue and Baldwin to the Olympics instead of Evora and Ladwig. They could have sent Mirai based on her showing at Four Continents and other international events.

They didn’t. The USFSA doesn’t play that game.

I would say, rather the USFS opted not to play the game this time because there weren't absolutely reliable single skaters in the US this time. After watching performances at 4CC, I imagine they were fairly convinced that Flatt could be counted on this time. Nagasu may have the better chance to medal, but that was not their priority this time. Overturning the result of US nationals will make negative effects on the valued tradition of US nationals.

As for men, Abbott and Rippon couldn't prove their reasonable chance to guarantee 3 spots. In that case, it's better to give the chance to some younger skaters and examine who has the potential to be the Olympic contender in three years. Abbott is too old to be a Sochi hopeful. Rippon is still struggling with the 3A and has little hope to master a quad. They did play the game of favoring Dornbush and Miner by ignoring international reputations intentionally. If the international judges were at US nationals, I think Abbott would be the winner even with numerous errors.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Because Hersh has been giving undue weight to that lost/not attained third spot, I think it's worth speculating about.

Let's say that Czisny didn't fall on her lutz. She gets the bronze (3rd). Now, lets say that Elene Gedevanishvili and Sarah Hecken skate slightly worse than they did, and place behind Flatt. Flatt's now tenth despite her own terrible performance. The USA gets three spots.

a) Does Hersh still pursue the story with the same vigour?
b) If he doesn't, does the US Federation really take that offhand comment from the interview and run with it.

Given that all we're doing is playing what-if/conjecture, I think it's fair to wonder. Make no mistake: Flatt and her team are the ones in the wrong and right now, I believe are being treated fairly by the organization responsible. But that doesn't stop me wondering.

 

[Mathman]

I would say, rather the USFS opted not to play the game this time because there weren't absolutely reliable single skaters in the US this time....

That is an interesting analysis. However, I can't think of any examples of the USFSA ever "playing the game," (except maybe 2008 Ladies where they decided to send Kimmie Meissner (seventh place at U.S. Nationals) to Worlds ahead of Katrina Hacker (6th), the top finishers being too young.)

In general, I think the USFSA's actions should be judged by its own standards. Does the organization state its principles and procedures clearly and then do they practice what they preach.

If we evaluate them instead by the "prinicples" that guide other federations, I think we miss the boat.

 

[Mathman]

Because Hersh has been giving undue weight to that lost/not attained third spot, I think it's worth speculating about.

Let's say that Czisny didn't fall on her lutz. She gets the bronze (3rd). Now, lets say that Elene Gedevanishvili and Sarah Hecken skate slightly worse than they did, and place behind Flatt. Flatt's now tenth despite her own terrible performance. The USA gets three spots.

a) Does Hersh still pursue the story with the same vigour?
b) If he doesn't, does the US Federation really take that offhand comment from the interview and run with it.

Given that all we're doing is playing what-if/conjecture, I think it's fair to wonder. Make no mistake: Flatt and her team are the ones in the wrong and right now, I believe are being treated fairly by the organization responsible. But that doesn't stop me wondering.

First, let's start with: "Alissa didn't fall on her Lutz and she won the bronze medal."

(Let's say that over and over until it becomes true. )

No, but I think your scenario does bring things into focus. Certainly if Rachael had, all on her own, skated a little better and got a legitimate 7th or 8th, that would have been the end of it. (1) Frank Carroll's wuzrobbin' would not have found an audience, (2) Hersh would not have a hook to hang his story on, and (3)the USFSA at worst would have said, "way to go Racahel, but tell us next time."

In the middle scenario that Imaginary P. proposes -- Rachael still bombs but the U.S. lucks into three berths anyway -- I think (a) and (b) still obtain.

The USFSA still might have scolded Rachael and her coach for not being up front about the situation and for not involving the USFSA in the decision to skate or to withdraw.

The other possibility is the R.D. conspiracy theory. That the USFSA, in its closed door investigations, uncovered some other horribe crime that hasn't been made public yet.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

It'll be true next year. Except it'll be silver, not bronze.

 

[pista04]

Could you imagine if this was a pre-olympic year? and, if Flatt had qualified for the olympics in 2nd place next year? If I were Rach, I would have a serious moral dillema taking that spot, knowing that by choosing to compete injured I (I'd say 80%) kept an olympic dream away from whoever got 3rd place next year. I mean, I think I would feel guilty enough to give up my spot and award it to number 3....

however, that just makes me think of what other options the USFSA does. You could say the same thing as above about next years worlds....do you think the USFSA should put Flatt on some restriction? Like, to be put on the World team she either must win nationals or prove to them she is worth sending by making the GPF? Or is that too harsh?!

 

[Mathman]

^ It would not be too "harsh," but it would be contrary to the character and operating principles of the organization.

The job of the USFSA is to stage a fair competition, come one, come all. Winners go to worlds.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Now that's just silly, pista.

No, she shouldn't be put on any competitive restrictions. Nor should she feel bad if she is the second competitor to Worlds/Olympics next year/2014.

 

[R.D.]

By doing college next year, she will likely begin to slip anyway. Also, Karma has a way of rearing its head. Might take the form of her placing 3rd at Nats next year and missing the world team much like Nagasu this year.

 

[Tinymavy15]

By doing college next year, she will likely begin to slip anyway. Also, Karma has a way of rearing its head. Might take the form of her placing 3rd at Nats next year and missing the world team much like Nagasu this year.

That could very well happen, but personally I think we have seen the last of Miss Rachael.

 

[Mathman]

Also, Karma has a way of rearing its head. Might take the form of her placing 3rd at Nats next year and missing the world team much like Nagasu this year.

Right on! That will be the test.

Or...will Rachael rock U.S. Nationals and hit a quad Salchow/triple loop at Worlds, while the chairman of the USFSA disciplinary committee gets run over by a bus on the way to the arena?

 

[colleen o'neill]

Oh, Mathman.... have you just spilled the plot of the next skating movie ?