U.S. Figure Skating reprimands, fines Rachael Flatt | Page 14 | Golden Skate

U.S. Figure Skating reprimands, fines Rachael Flatt

What if Rachael has had reported the injury as soon as she has found out it, which was a week before the Worlds, but not intended to withdraw, would that be alright to USFSA? I don't think USFSA could force her to withdraw, couldn't they?

I think they can. What's the point of even having an alternate if that's the case? If she was unable to perform to the best of her abilities, they probably could have replaced her or at least strongly suggested (ie. demanded) that she withdraw so that the alternate could take her place. But being that it's a federation and that they are the ones paying for the competition and expenses, I'd think the USFSA has the final say...not Rachael and Tom, which is what happened.
 
The money question is an interesting one.

USFS pays dues to the ISU to help meet expenses for competitions like worlds, they incur some expenses in sending athletes, and they help the athletes out with a few thousand dollars from their funding envelope program.

Meanwhile, the skaters’ families spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on their child’s training, plus they support USFS through local club memberships and donations. Without the financial support of the parents, USFS would be out of business tomorrow.

So I am not all that impressed when the USFS returns a dollop to the skaters, then says – we gave you some money, we own you.
 
I think they can. What's the point of even having an alternate if that's the case? If she was unable to perform to the best of her abilities, they probably could have replaced her or at least strongly suggested (ie. demanded) that she withdraw so that the alternate could take her place. But being that it's a federation and that they are the ones paying for the competition and expenses, I'd think the USFSA has the final say...not Rachael and Tom, which is what happened.

It's an interesting question and I have no idea what the answer is.

I do think the US champion is guaranteed a spot on Natl teams and always thought the others were "selected" to represent Team USA.

I might be wrong here but think Alissa had a "guaranteed spot" on the US Natl team. Flatt or anyone else who might have been "selected" had no right to break their contract, act in such bad faith and I believe it is Team USA's spot as opposed to the skater.

Tonya was the '94 champion and even though she eventually lost her lawsuit against being replaced it didn't happen until after the Olympics.

But the fact remains Tonya lost the case, or maybe it is more accurate to say she "plea bargained" to avoid jail time.

Either way, I believe Rachael and Tom Z acted with their OWN best interests at heart as opposed to US Skating. :disagree:

I agree with something Silverlake said and forgetting Mirai, I would rather have had a healthy Agnes or Christina at Worlds as opposed to a helplessly injured Rachael.

That just seems unacceptable and I dont' think it will be forgotten.
 
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I think they can. What's the point of even having an alternate if that's the case? If she was unable to perform to the best of her abilities, they probably could have replaced her or at least strongly suggested (ie. demanded) that she withdraw so that the alternate could take her place. But being that it's a federation and that they are the ones paying for the competition and expenses, I'd think the USFSA has the final say...not Rachael and Tom, which is what happened.

The alternate has to be there if you voluntarily withdraw. That's the point. The federation doesn't own you. Once they've given you that spot, they can't take it back unless you do something egregious.
 
The alternate has to be there if you voluntarily withdraw. That's the point. The federation doesn't own you. Once they've given you that spot, they can't take it back unless you do something egregious.

Do you have facts (written rules) to back up such a statement?

Imagine a sport like hockey, soccer or NFL football if a coach or federation could not suspend a player for behavior detrimental to the team,organiztion or league :eek:

Even crazier imagine if an injured player could not be substituted for a fit player for the good of the team. :laugh:


Is figure skating so different from "real sports" that all logic is thrown out the window?

If so, it just shows another reason why jumping frogs or lumberjacks with one arm tied behind their back is a more popular "sport" in USA than CoP skating. :sheesh:
 
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I think the main difference is that the NFL, NBA, etc. are pro sports leagues where the players are paid, so they treat their players much more like companies treat employees (since that is the basic relationship here). If the employee does something that reflects poorly on the company, then the company takes the appropriate action.

I'm not sure of the exact relationship of USFS to its skaters, but I'm pretty sure it's not the same.
 
I think the main difference is that the NFL, NBA, etc. are pro sports leagues where the players are paid, so they treat their players much more like companies treat employees (since that is the basic relationship here). If the employee does something that reflects poorly on the company, then the company takes the appropriate action.

I'm not sure of the exact relationship of USFS to its skaters, but I'm pretty sure it's not the same.

Not sure if I get you here?

Are you saying skaters don't get paid or earn money?

I think looking at the lifestyles of Michelle, Sasha,Yuna and MANY others would make your statement feel false. :)

Care to elaborate?
 
I'm saying that the USFS does not pay its skaters to perform for them. Sure, they may provide a small amount of funding to help out the top athletes, but the skaters do not earn a salary by participating in figure skating.

Amateur athletes aren't paid by their league, so if they're to make any money, it has to come from endorsements- or professional tours.
 
Do you have facts (written rules) to back up such a statement?

Good question. I'll double check

Imagine a sport like hockey, soccer or NFL football if a coach or federation could not suspend a player for behavior detrimental to the team,organiztion or league :eek:

Skating while injured is not in and of itself detrimental to the organization.

Even crazier imagine if an injured player could not be substituted for a fit player for the good of the team. :laugh:

The question of "team" is one worth treating with more nuance then I have time for.

Is figure skating so different from "real sports" that all logic is thrown out the window?

No. But as a rule, I know debating logic with you will get nowhere (to wit, see your final comment).

If so, it just shows another reason why jumping frogs or lumberjacks with one arm tied behind their back is a more popular "sport" in USA than CoP skating. :sheesh:
 
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Apologies if I have been proven wrong by the fact that USFS managed to obtain rapid visas for all the alternates too. Something that is not cheap, so I would tend to doubt it.

First, welcome! Thanks for joining us. :rock:

Traditionally it has been the responsibility of the skater and his/her parents to obtain the necessary visas, arrange travel, etc.

In the 2002 Grand Prix, Ann Patrice McDonough took second place in Skate Anerica and was scheduled for Cup of Russia as a favorite to make the finals. A.P. and her mom, inexperienced international travelers, made it as far as Paris, but they were not allowed on the plane to Moscow because they did not have the proper documents.

For 1998 Worlds, the U.S. had earned three spots, Lipinski and Kwan having gone 1-2 the years before. At 1998 U.S. Nationals the order of finish was Kwan, Lipinski, Bobek, Kwiatkowski and Nikodinov. Tara elected to skip worlds, and Bobek withdrew with an injury. Kwan and Kwiatkowshi went, finishing first an sixth. The USFSA could not find Nikodinov, who was vacationing with her family in Bulgaria. So the U.S. just forfeited its third spot.
 
I'm saying that the USFS does not pay its skaters to perform for them. Sure, they may provide a small amount of funding to help out the top athletes, but the skaters do not earn a salary by participating in figure skating.

Amateur athletes aren't paid by their league, so if they're to make any money, it has to come from endorsements- or professional tours.

Most US skaters are not earning much from endorsements but last time I checked they are making hundreds of thousands of dollars as "amateur skaters" :laugh:

I won't argue with you here because I don't know how much US skaters get from the various team envelopes or how much they earn at GP', s Natls, club shows, B events or basically - almost everytime they take they ice.

Oh, I forgot the Disson shows,and other shows various skaters appear at throughout a year.

A quick guess would be that Alissa earned between 250,000 to 500,000 skating last season.

Why in the world would she be in such a rush to retire and start earning a normal salary :think:

FYI, Sasha has earned millions as a skater. Duh......:)
 
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Good question. I'll double check



Skating while injured is not in and of itself detrimental to the organization.



The question of "team" is one worth treating with more nuance then I have time for.



No. But as a rule, I know debating logic with you will get nowhere (to wit, see your final comment).

I accept your concession on this point.

Your opinions are OK but I think you are winging it here and I reject your premise that skating for your federation at Intl evenyts is not part of a team effort.

Maybe in Canada it is different ( :rofl:) but in America it is not called "TEAM USA" just because it makes it sound more like a real sport. ;) :biggrin:
 
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Hernando, please provide some backup for your statements about skaters' wealth. OK, Michelle we know because she was the one and only MK; she built a skating rink. I am far from convinced that Sasha or Alissa has gotten rich from skating. Sasha's big-money days -- not that I believe she ever earned "millions" -- are probably well behind her and I'm not sure Alissa has ever had any. Johnny is probably doing well because of the TV show and appearance fees.
 
Please provide some backup for your statements about skaters' wealth. OK, Michelle we know because she was the one and only MK; she built a skating rink. I am far from convinced that Sasha or Alissa has gotten rich from skating. Sasha's big-money days -- not that I believe she ever earned "millions" -- are probably well behind her and I'm not sure Alissa has ever had any. Johnny is probably doing well because of the TV show and appearance fees.

Sasha has been the headliner or co-headliner for SOI for years now. She also skates at other events. An article I read mentioned how proud Sasha was of her million dollar home in Laguna Hills.

OK?

ETA: Evan said he made 350,000. last season as the co-headliner with Sasha at SOI.

Do you think in USA the ice princess skates for less than the guy :eek:
As I mentioned Sasha has been doing this for years. With Kwan out of the puibic eye for almost half a decade Sasha has been the face of skating in USA. She has spent the time, paid more than her dues and is probably the best known active skater in USA for the last 5 years.
 
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If anyone is interested in money issues, it is possible to find old copies of the USFSA annual financial reports on line (but you have to be diligent -- I will try later when I have more time. :))

Anyway, the funding that the athletes receive is on the order of a few thousand dollars per year for the Team A envelope. Skaters may spend $60,000 - $70,000 of their own money to compete.

Here is an article by Sandra Loosemore from back in 1999 lamenting the situation. In 1999 USFS received $12,000,000 from their television contract alone, and returned $500,000 total in funding for skaters. Now the entire budget of USFS is about $12,000,000.

http://www.cbssports.com/u/ce/multi/0,1329,1042300_10946,00.html
 
If anyone is interested in money issues, it is possible to find old copies of the USFSA annual financial reports on line (but you have to be diligent -- I will try later when I have more time. :))

Anyway, the funding that the athletes receive is on the order of a few thousand dollars per year for the Team A envelope. Skaters may spend $60,000 - $70,000 of their own money to compete.

Here is an article by Sandra Loosemore from back in 1999 lamenting the situation. In 1999 USFS received $12,000,000 from their television contract alone, and returned $500,000 total in funding for skaters. Now the entire budget of USFS is about $12,000,000.

http://www.cbssports.com/u/ce/multi/0,1329,1042300_10946,00.html

Interesting but your comments are about a decade old. I serioulsy doubt if funding is the same in 2011 as it was at the end of the last century.

It is easy enough to challenge what I wrote before by saying I was talking about the top skaters and not the less successful skaters.

No doubt skating is an expensive proposition for families in USA but it is also hard to deny the "pot of gold" that is there for the most successful skaters.

Johnny is always whining about money but he just bought a condo in Manhattan for a reported 1.1 million dollars.

Did the tooth fairy leave him a substancial gift under his pillow or is it possible Johnny earned enough through his skating and hard work to buy such an expensive little pad?

Kwan's earnings were not too shabby either but would have been doubled or tripled if she had won an OGM. You think Danny Kwan thinks about this from time to time.... :p
 
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Alissa Czisny makes 250-500k a year? :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
I think I missed another :laugh:

The top US pairs have been doing odd/end jobs just to make ends meet. How on earth did Alissa make 250-500k/year falling all over the place?
 
Most US skaters are not earning much from endorsements but last time I checked they are making hundreds of thousands of dollars as "amateur skaters" :laugh:

Hardly "most US skaters." Maybe a dozen US skaters (rough estimate) each year place well enough in international events that offer prize money to come out ahead financially after training expenses. The rest are losing money every year they compete.

I think when you use the word "most" you're only thinking about 20 or so US skaters that you see on TV each year and not

Most US skaters, including most who compete internationally, spend much more money on ice time, coaching, choreography, equipment, costumes, and travel (to Nationals and other domestic events) than they ever earn through envelope funding or prize money.

I won't argue with you here because I don't know how much US skaters get from the various team envelopes or how much they earn at GP', s Natls, club shows, B events or basically - almost everytime they take they ice.

Skaters earn nothing at Nationals. It's all expense -- a big expense for most participants -- no income.

For those who place well there, it's the gateway to opportunities they wouldn't have otherwise -- international competition assignments (some of which do have prize money), team envelope funding, and potentially invitations to perform in shows that will pay more than their travel expenses, or sponsorships/endorsements. But Nationals itself is not a money-making opportunity.

Even an international event where the travel expenses, hotel accommodations, etc., are paid for by the skater's federation and host federation can end up costing the skater money if they have to pay for their coach's time. Earning prize money might cover more than that week's expenses, but unless the skater medals at pretty much every international event entered,

Do you really think Ross Miner, for example, made a profit on his skating this past season? And he was much more successful than "most" US senior men.

It is easy enough to challenge what I wrote before by saying I was talking about the top skaters and not the less successful skaters.

No doubt skating is an expensive proposition for families in USA but it is also hard to deny the "pot of gold" that is there for the most successful skaters.

Most skaters will never reach that pot of gold, though. It's one incentive for skaters to aim for, and for the lucky few who do get there and are able to maintain that level of success for more than one season, it's a good incentive to continue competing. But for the majority of skaters, ever earning back the years' worth of training expenses is pie in the sky. It's not a safe investment. That's why so many pretty good senior skaters end up leaving competitive skating when they get to college age, except for the very very few who are already at or near the top.
 
Hardly "most US skaters." Maybe a dozen US skaters (rough estimate) each year place well enough in international events that offer prize money to come out ahead financially after training expenses. The rest are losing money every year they compete.

I think when you use the word "most" you're only thinking about 20 or so US skaters that you see on TV each year and not

Most US skaters, including most who compete internationally, spend much more money on ice time, coaching, choreography, equipment, costumes, and travel (to Nationals and other domestic events) than they ever earn through envelope funding or prize money.



Skaters earn nothing at Nationals. It's all expense -- a big expense for most participants -- no income.

For those who place well there, it's the gateway to opportunities they wouldn't have otherwise -- international competition assignments (some of which do have prize money), team envelope funding, and potentially invitations to perform in shows that will pay more than their travel expenses, or sponsorships/endorsements. But Nationals itself is not a money-making opportunity.

Even an international event where the travel expenses, hotel accommodations, etc., are paid for by the skater's federation and host federation can end up costing the skater money if they have to pay for their coach's time. Earning prize money might cover more than that week's expenses, but unless the skater medals at pretty much every international event entered,

Do you really think Ross Miner, for example, made a profit on his skating this past season? And he was much more successful than "most" US senior men.



Most skaters will never reach that pot of gold, though. It's one incentive for skaters to aim for, and for the lucky few who do get there and are able to maintain that level of success for more than one season, it's a good incentive to continue competing. But for the majority of skaters, ever earning back the years' worth of training expenses is pie in the sky. It's not a safe investment. That's why so many pretty good senior skaters end up leaving competitive skating when they get to college age, except for the very very few who are already at or near the top.

Much of what you wrote I already agreed with , so if you don't read my posts a convesration is difficult at best.

Off the top of your head what do you think Alissa won at SC, TEB and the GPF? Let's leave out her numerous commerical appearances for now and start with her earnings from ISU competitive events. Don't forget Alissa also won something at Worlds.......
 
I still don't see any links or hard data that would convince me Sasha (let alone Alissa) is rich. Yes, I recall she bought a fancy house, but that doesn't make her a millionnaire, that meant she had maybe $200K in the bank for a down payment and enough to pay the mortgage. And I wouldn't assume she makes more than Evan made last year as the OGM. You said yourself Michelle would have made much more as the OGM.

I just think skating is a hard life. At best you have a few fat years and then it peters out and you need to restart your life. Some have managed to excel in a second field. So far Sasha's not one of them. But I'm glad she's going to NYU this fall. She's smart and determined... I see her as a future businesswoman!

ETA: Hernando, let's see the math. Maybe Alissa had a nice pile of prize money, but she's also had loads of training and competing expenses. I have no idea how much she got for that 2-second bit in the Detroit commercial--do you have facts?
 
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