U.S. ladies -- agree or disagree?

[Fossi]

9. Sasha - it looks like there's an opening at least in the US ladies and it looks like she's itching to take it. Can't wait to see how it works out. (Aside: it's been very interesting to behold the patience of fans the past season or two with struggling skaters like Meissner and Czisny, vs. the scorn that was routinely dumped on Sasha, whose record... apart from that one Worlds of Kimmie's... was incomparably better. Major double standard among skating fans, IMO.)

10. Michelle - age 28, after the way she broke down in Torino? I don't think so. OTOH, she probably watched Fumie this week ... maybe Morozov will get another American skater.

I don't think it's a double standard. Sasha was touted as the best since 2000. The next big thing, the Quad Queen. Unfortunately for her, she didn't live up to all of that, but the hype kept coming. Kimmie was the young up and comer that was pushing the sport technically and had her jumps consistent. Kimmie's demise happened relatively quickly and it's never good to see a Champion struggle. Sasha never had a quick demise. Just was never able to live up to her press. Czisny reminds me lots of Sasha.

I don't t hink well see Sasha or Michelle back. Could they compete with any of these girls today? Seriously?...........

 

[Spun Silver]

I believe you're sincere, but really, your Czisny-Cohen comparison doesn't hold water:

Czisny at Nats, 2001-2008: 2nd J. 11th 10th 12th 7th 7th 3rd 9th
Cohen at Nats, 1998-2006: 6th N. 2nd J. 2nd (WD) 2nd 3rd 2nd 2nd 1st

Czisny at Worlds, 2007 (only time there): 15th
Cohen at Worlds, 2002-2006: 4th 4th 2nd 2nd 3rd

Czisny at GPF, 2005-2006 (only time there): 6th
Cohen at GPF, 2002-3 and 2003-4: 1st and 2nd

Why would Cohen be seen as like Czisny or at least why would their differences (medal count and number of maddening slips) not outweigh what they have in common (pattern of maddening slips)? (IOW, both slip, but Czisny far, far more.)

Anyway, Happy New Year everyone! I'm about to fall asleep - just stayed awake for the birth of 2009.

 

[R.D.]

Difference is, Cohen never really BOMBED a competition before. Sure, she's done less than her best at a few, but unlike Czisny, I never have seen her completely fold during a program. What struck me after watching Meissner at last year's Nats is that Cohen never slowed down or gave up after she made a mistake.

Alyssa, on the other hand, has had some great performances (Nats '07 LP, SC '05, SC '08 come to mind), but she's also had some awful ones (Nats '06, GP events in 07). You just never know which Alyssa will show up at a given competition, the good one or the bad one.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

apart from that one Worlds of Kimmie's.

I happen to like Sasha, and rooted for her on many occasions including Kimmie's win in Calgary. Sasha when everything was in her favor in several competitions failed to rise to the occasion. That's not a bash but fact. Tis better to win one Worlds than none.

Sasha has a very strong fan base, and their hopes that she returns to eligibles is quite proper. I'd like to see her again.

Meanwhile, I can not think of any one lady skater as a lock in the 2009 US Nationals.

 

[chuckm]

Difference is, Cohen never really BOMBED a competition before. Sure, she's done less than her best at a few, but unlike Czisny, I never have seen her completely fold during a program.

Sasha bombed at Worlds 2006. Her QR was a disaster, she had a mistake in the SP, and nearly every jump in the FS was seriously flawed. Her PCS scores were what held her up for bronze, but her skating was a mess---and she was the odds-on favorite to win the competition.

 

[flying camel]

Sasha bombed at Worlds 2006. Her QR was a disaster, she had a mistake in the SP, and nearly every jump in the FS was seriously flawed. Her PCS scores were what held her up for bronze, but her skating was a mess---and she was the odds-on favorite to win the competition.

But remember that was right after the Olympics. She was in high demand for talk shows and personal appearances. Her skating suffered. That was the only competition that she skated really bad because she was not trained. All in all she was a good skater. She really should have won more titles but she made just enough mistakes to keep her from the top.

 

[Fossi]

There were other skaters that were in high demand after the Olympics too, but they managed to keep their heads together and perform well at Worlds. I dunno. I think Sasha always had a concentration issue,much like Czisny's.Both beautiful skaters, but not the greatest competitors. There were other competitions where she didn't do so well at as the odds on favorite: the Skate America where her quad was majorly hyped, Jr. Worlds in 2000, Nationals '03, Worlds 03, and Nationals '04,Worlds 06. Her PR team generated too much hype and it hurt her.

 

[Tinymavy15]

I agree that most of the U.S ladies right now lack the "It" factor. Kimmie is everybody's girl next door, but she skates like that...nothing wow. She lost the 3 axel and the 3/3's that made her stand apart from the bunch.
Racheal is there on the brink....as many mentioned she loves what she does and taht is nice to see. also I think she understands music very well...she has nice hands and arms, but lacks the quality that Sasha and Naomi had to transmit their understanding of the music to the audience. Of course her lack of strech and posture and - as well. Ashley had something...but she jumps are really sloppy and doesn't have the finish that we would expect of a champion.
I thought that Caroline would be our next champion last year, she has more star quality than the others, but is really being hurt by the CoP, which seems to ave lowered her confidence...and her ability to perform. Marai has suffered a similar fate.
Bebe has the star quaility...she has the "it", but her jumps will never be consistent enough to top her placements last year...and with so many more ladies now of age, I cannot see her making the world team again.
Katrina Hacker is a very pretty skater, but she just does not have the high level jumps. In her SP I believe she has a toe loop as her solo jump...that is just not going to hold up.
Emily Huges...her days are past. Enjoy Harvard.

 

[chuckm]

But remember that was right after the Olympics. [Sasha] was in high demand for talk shows and personal appearances. Her skating suffered. That was the only competition that she skated really bad because she was not trained. All in all she was a good skater. She really should have won more titles but she made just enough mistakes to keep her from the top.

It was Sasha's choice to pursue glitz and glitter rather than prepare for Worlds. She had no one to blame but herself for bombing and losing what should have been an easy World title.

 

[Spun Silver]

Sasha bombed at Worlds 2006. Her QR was a disaster, she had a mistake in the SP, and nearly every jump in the FS was seriously flawed. Her PCS scores were what held her up for bronze, but her skating was a mess---and she was the odds-on favorite to win the competition.

This is an example of the kind of prejudice I'm talking about when it comes to Cohen. By definition a bronze at Worlds is not bombing. Bombing at Worlds for a favorite would be majorly missing the podium like 15th (Czisny 2006) or even 7th (Meissner 2008). It wasn't a gold medal performance by any means, and I remember how hugely disappointing it was since she *was* expected to win, but to call it bombing is grossly exaggerated.

It was Sasha's choice to pursue glitz and glitter rather than prepare for Worlds. She had no one to blame but herself for bombing and losing what should have been an easy World title.

Easy for you to say. For a skater in her position the post-Olympic spotlight is a once in a lifetime financial and career opportunity. Every time I pass a Panera I think about a recent high-placing US Lady who was waitressing there while competing nationally and internationally. But for you it's black and white - Cohen did the wrong thing. I find that arrogant.

Anyway, I'm not going to keep this up. Someday with the passage of time the air around Cohen will clear so people can take an unbiased look at her record, but apparently not yet.

 

[R.D.]

Sasha bombed at Worlds 2006. Her QR was a disaster, she had a mistake in the SP, and nearly every jump in the FS was seriously flawed. Her PCS scores were what held her up for bronze, but her skating was a mess---and she was the odds-on favorite to win the competition.

She certainly did not skate well there, but I would hardly call it "bombed". She still hung on and STAYED ON HER FEET (save the last jump in the FS). Her worst performance (at least the worst I've seen from her), but I've seen worse, far worse from other skaters. Saw Emily Hughes at TEB this past season? Gedevanishvili? now THAT is bombing.

And I don't agree with this "she (Cohen) should have won more titles" that I keep hearing from some posters. She deserved what she achieved (for the most part), which reflects how she skated relative to her competition at those events (again, for the most part). End of story.

I agree that most of the U.S ladies right now lack the "It" factor. Kimmie is everybody's girl next door, but she skates like that...nothing wow. She lost the 3 axel and the 3/3's that made her stand apart from the bunch.

I agree with your first sentence. Also your last one. However, I think that Meissner is becoming her own skater now. Evident after seeing her live in Baltimore (I enjoyed her performance the most, looked like she was having a good time out there) and after watching her SP this season. She is not the same skater she was in 2006 (stroke, jump, skate, jump again, end pose) IMO.

Back ON TOPIC- Most of the American ladies are brand new to the top game. Meissner is the only "veteran" out there, and she is having too many problems to take a sort of "leadership" role for the US team. So what we have is really a bunch of young phenoms with various levels of potential, but haven't finished growing yet. They have to learn the ropes of senior competition, and this has led to the situation US ladies skating finds itself in now. I don't think I've ever seen a US championship that didn't have a clear favorite, and I think this will be the first one. This is a true free-for-all; I honestly have no clue what the Podium, let alone the Winner, will be.

 

[flying camel]

I don't think I've ever seen a US championship that didn't have a clear favorite, and I think this will be the first one. This is a true free-for-all; I honestly have no clue what the Podium, let alone the Winner, will be.[/QUOTE]



Totally agree with you. There is no clear cut winner. I think someone new or someone we are not expecting to do well could come there and win it all. It would not be surprising.

 

[Fossi]

This will be an interesting Nationals. I can't wait!

 

[kyla2]

The Problem Is.......

The problem with all of the U.S. ladies is that they have to follow Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen and no one has their combination of star power and skating ability. Michelle is not coming back. You can count on it. Sasha may try to come back and I wish her well if she does. She was vastly underrated. The top skaters out there now are not skating clean performances, which makes her issues with consistency look less problematic now. This is not a trend I am happy with however. It should be penalized significantly by the ISU but that is not their mindset. So there we are. Unless Sasha returns, we will not have a mega star skater in the U.S. for awhile.

 

[antmanb]

And as I continually remind the Sasha haters -- Sasha is more than 1 full Olympic cycle younger than Michelle. If you want to put 2 ROFL'ing smileys in front of Sasha's potential comeback, that's your business. But then Michelle's should have 3 or 4, just by basic logic.

I don't think it's a question of age between the two skaters that prompt the laughing smilies (though it might be for Kwan) rather, that neither of them appears to have the time in their schedules to resume elite level olympic hopeful training.

Sasha is headlining this season's SOI, by the time she finishes that she will have been gone from the competitive skating world for three entire seasons, and will only then be able to to start training for the Olympic season. The COP has changed since she competed, she doesn't appear to have a coach (would Nicks come out of retirement again for her? Who knows). Has any skater had that much time away from competitive skating (baring in mind even most of the re-instated for 1994 pros had been doing the pro competition circuit during their professional careers) and come back and done well? Did Todd have two full seasons off? He had the forsight to come back in the pre Olympic year to settle down before the big season. I just don't think someone can have three years off and then come back in an Olympic year and do that well. The risk of injuring yourself alone would be pretty high.

Ant

 

[Mathman]

(Sasha) deserved what she achieved (for the most part), which reflects how she skated relative to her competition at those events (again, for the most part).

I quite agree. At 2004 Worlds Sasha gave the second best performances. Ararkawa was first with the finest free skate of her career.

In 2005 Sasha again gave the second best performances of the competition. Slutskaya gave a career-defining LP and won.

At the 2006 Olympics, no one really stepped up and I guess Sasha deserved silver as much as anyone else.

At various U.S. Nationals, Sasha skated well, Michelle skated better. (Something about Nationals just brought out the warrior in MK.)

The only time Sasha was robbed was the 2005 phone-in-the-vote cheesefest, when Michelle was given the prize despite barely being able to hobble onto the ice to accept it.

That said, the current crop of U.S. ladies are not Michelle Kwan, Irina Slutskaya and Shizuka Arakawa. I don't see any reason why Sasha couldn't come back and be competitive at the national level if she wants to. Then again, I don't see any reason why she would want to. She has moved on.

 

[gocaroline]

:agree::agree::agree: Rachael is very consistent, IMO she has the best chance to get the national title this year (though IMO she deserved it last year too).

The common wisdom about U.S. ladies seems to go something like this. Agree or disagree?

1. Rachael Flatt. Consistent, dependable. Where is the “it” factor?

2. Ashley Wagner. Athletic and robust. More challenged in grace and lyricism?

3. Caroline Zhang. Exquisite junior champion. Will her flawed technique prevent her from achieving the next level?

4. Mirai Nagasu. Cutie-pie charmer. A one-shot wonder?

5. Kimmie Meissner. Nicest girl in town. As a skater, is she done?

6. Emily Huighes. Fun while it lasted, she has moved on.

7. Alissa Czisny. Beautiful skater :agree: , lovely person , can’t jump.

8. Bebe Liang. She went as far as her talent could take her. Go Bebe!

9. Sasha Cohen. Comeback?

10. Michelle Kwan. Comeback?

11. The next generation. Hope springs eternal, but no one stands out yet.

 

[PolymerBob]

Flying Camel...go to the Flickr Photo site from the Disson Rapid City, S.D. show, and if you look at the photo of Rachael from her first number in the show...pink dress/close up
http://flickr.com/photos/alexlc13/3135962527/sizes/l/in/set-72157611605316553/

guess what...no braces!!!

Yes, it does appear the braces are gone.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/21237220@N07/3154121801

That said, the current crop of U.S. ladies are not Michelle Kwan, Irina Slutskaya and Shizuka Arakawa.

It is said that hindsight is 20/20, though I believe it is sometimes rose colored. Shizuka Arakawa was a very inconsistent skater, often finishing well off the podium. Sasha and Michelle were way more consistent than Shizuka.

 

[Eurofan]

Yes, it does appear the braces are gone.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/21237220@N07/3154121801



It is said that hindsight is 20/20, though I believe it is sometimes rose colored. Shizuka Arakawa was a very inconsistent skater, often finishing well off the podium. Sasha and Michelle were way more consistent than Shizuka.

That was true up until the '02-'03 season, when Arakawa medaled at 5 out of 8 events. '03-'04 she medaled at all her competitions; '04-'05 was rough but she medaled at all her GP events; '05-'06 the medals were all bronze except for the big one. Her placements at '03 and '05 Worlds were "well off the podium", but on the whole, she usually finished in the top three. That doesn't seem very inconsistent to me.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

1
9. Sasha - it looks like there's an opening at least in the US ladies and it looks like she's itching to take it. Can't wait to see how it works out. (Aside: it's been very interesting to behold the patience of fans the past season or two with struggling skaters like Meissner and Czisny, vs. the scorn that was routinely dumped on Sasha, whose record... apart from that one Worlds of Kimmie's... was incomparably better. Major double standard among skating fans, IMO.)

10. Michelle - age 28, after the way she broke down in Torino? I don't think so. OTOH, she probably watched Fumie this week ... maybe Morozov will get another American skater.

Spun - You're missing the point here - fans are patient because this is the first time in forever that US fans don't have a Great One on the ice... its easier to be patient & forgiving when you don't have any realistic expectation of seeing the Shock & Awe that fans of earlier generations could look forward to at Nationals & Worlds....

As for Michelle - she was a once in a lifetime phenom that was better than most even when she was hurting. Her contributions to the sport more than make up for a stubborn skater's will to compete and a federation's dream that she could... But she's still the Greatest. Of. All. Time. :yes: