Ultima Legacy 8" to MK Pro 7" - too big of a transition?

[eccpp]

Hi! We recently replaced my daughter's worn out and too small Edea Choruses with Ultimate Legacy (8" rocker) blades (...blades were not worn out but were too short for new boots... ) with Edea Ice Fly with MK Pro blades (7" rocker). MK Pros are heavier, different spin rocker, different overall rocker, plus the blades are longer because she went up a boot size. My daughter was hesitant to change both boots and blades, but she wanted to move up to the Ice Fly and her coach wanted to transition her to the MK Pro rather than have her continue with another pair of Legacy blades. I feel like the combination of both of these two transitions is too much.

She had been struggling with getting her double toe and struggling occasionally with consistent-looking twizzles; I think her coach thought the blade and boot change would help with both, as well as her edge work. She's had her axel and double sal consistent for the last year and her double loop (sometimes). Now, she is falling out of her flying camel, falling on most double sals, too hesitant to do her lutz or to try double-loop ... On the plus side, her edges do seem stronger and faster, and her axel seems higher (though not as smooth or something - just looks different).

She doesn't seem to be too bothered by losing the double sal, double loop, falling on flying camels, etc. ~ saying that she's just going to have to take some time to relearn these things, but - why, if she doesn't have to?
With multiple rink shut-down periods, multiple growth spurts, emergency replacement of her last pair of Legacy blades, all of this has already translated to losing jumps and other skills, then getting them back again, etc. - it just seems like maybe there's a better boot blade combination to transition to that would be more natural for her ... every other time she's made a boot or blade change it's translated to close to immediate improvement rather than backtracking ...

Edges and rotation to some spins seem to have improved with the new boot & blade combo, but is there a better combination out there for her that would make for an easier transition? Coronation Ace? MK Pro Lite? Legacy 7"
(Not sure if the issues are mainly rocker size, spin rocker, weight, or ... the boots: Chorus to Ice Fly)

 

[WednesdayMarch]

If edges and rotation have improved, I'd be looking at the boots... I know people go on about the difference in rocker/spin rocker, but I've always been able to adjust to either a 7' or 8' rocker.

 

[sashavis]

I've skated in both the Concerto, which is the same style as Chorus, just stiffer (VERY briefly--I'm not a fan of the feel of them haha) and the Ice Fly (the best boot on the planet for me, in my opinion--not the feet of others, haha), and I didn't notice a difference in terms of weight. Perhaps the Edeas themselves are causing the issue for your skater? I know the higher heel can often throw people off. Perhaps you could try the Concerto if the Chorus did not have any issues?

Changing from an 8" rocker to a 7" rocker will just take time to get used to, but I'm sure your skater will manage in no time! Also--as you mentioned, with growth spurts and closures and any number of factors, it could simply be a combination of everything making the transition difficult, and I honestly do not know what advice to offer on that aspect, other than to keep working hard, I suppose.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Hi! We recently replaced my daughter's worn out and too small Edea Choruses with Ultimate Legacy (8" rocker) blades (...blades were not worn out but were too short for new boots... ) with Edea Ice Fly with MK Pro blades (7" rocker). MK Pros are heavier, different spin rocker, different overall rocker, plus the blades are longer because she went up a boot size. My daughter was hesitant to change both boots and blades, but she wanted to move up to the Ice Fly and her coach wanted to transition her to the MK Pro rather than have her continue with another pair of Legacy blades. I feel like the combination of both of these two transitions is too much.

She had been struggling with getting her double toe and struggling occasionally with consistent-looking twizzles; I think her coach thought the blade and boot change would help with both, as well as her edge work. She's had her axel and double sal consistent for the last year and her double loop (sometimes). Now, she is falling out of her flying camel, falling on most double sals, too hesitant to do her lutz or to try double-loop ... On the plus side, her edges do seem stronger and faster, and her axel seems higher (though not as smooth or something - just looks different).

She doesn't seem to be too bothered by losing the double sal, double loop, falling on flying camels, etc. ~ saying that she's just going to have to take some time to relearn these things, but - why, if she doesn't have to?
With multiple rink shut-down periods, multiple growth spurts, emergency replacement of her last pair of Legacy blades, all of this has already translated to losing jumps and other skills, then getting them back again, etc. - it just seems like maybe there's a better boot blade combination to transition to that would be more natural for her ... every other time she's made a boot or blade change it's translated to close to immediate improvement rather than backtracking ...

Edges and rotation to some spins seem to have improved with the new boot & blade combo, but is there a better combination out there for her that would make for an easier transition? Coronation Ace? MK Pro Lite? Legacy 7"
(Not sure if the issues are mainly rocker size, spin rocker, weight, or ... the boots: Chorus to Ice Fly)

This seems pretty simple. She's used to a flatter rocker blade with a 8ft rocker on the legacy 8, which is also IIRC a lighter blade than the traditional MK Pro your coach has her in now with the 7ft rocker that's elongated and has minimal contact with the ice for spins etc compared to the previous blade she was in. What doesn't make sense to me is why the coach wants her in a MK Pro now which is only designed to take her to 2Lz, where the Legacy she was used to would have taken her through all her doubles. If I was putting her in a better blade to improve with and get used to for higher level jumps etc, I would have put her in a Gold Seal and it would have made more sense---crosscut picks like she's used to, 8ft rocker, etc.

If it doesn't end up being the blades, you may have to look at getting her out of Edea boots.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

This original blade change doesn't make too much sense to me.
I don't think its the entire issue, but I don't think it was a sensible choice from the original point of view (unless the feet are rapidly growing and she'll need a new pair of skates after half a year).

Honestly, twizzles should be doable in almost any boot/blade combination as long as it's not uncomfortable and you adjust to it (and its not a very low-end blade or a blade thats too advanced), it's ridiculous to change a blade to fix a twizzle rather than just work the technique of the twizzle and the core strength etc.

I loved chorus when I used them and absolutely hated ice fly (they lost their support very fast). This could be the reason (not losing the support, but moving to ice fly especially if the ankle isn't strong). Ankle strengthening is a must regardless of if it's responsible or not.

Toe jumps shouldn't be impacted much with blade changes (depending on flip and Lutz technique of course), so I don't see how a blade change would have been a good idea to get the 2T. Unless something is actively wrong with your setup, or it is uncomfortable or it isn't advanced enough for your level then changing boots and blades isn't just a magic formula to fix your jumps. Of course, people adapt better to different setups, but usually thats because the previous one wasn't ideal.
I'd recommend Gold seal or Matrix Supreme as a viable path to go down, but if your daughter is still growing then maybe going back to the Legacy blades would be a much better idea rather than spending money then having to spend more when your daughter goes up a size. (I believe its half the price of gold seal / matrix supreme).

 

[eccpp]

Hi! Thanks so much for the tips and ideas thus far!! Keep them coming!
More to the story ... my daughter's coach didn't say she was specifically recommending a blade change to help her with consistency on twizzles or with 2T ... she was recommending a blade change when replacing boots and said that she would recommend the MK Pro because "it's a nice blade, people like it and do really well with it" ... and then I believe I said, "would changing blades help her with 2T or other skills she's struggling with?" ... the answer was: "yes, they're nice blades, not as flat, bigger toe pick" ...
I think she has had other skaters transition to the MK Pro and it was a smooth transition & a positive change, so I guess it's natural that she would recommend them.

I hesitated on the coach's recommendation because I've read up on blade profiles, skating boots, etc. partly because of the expense of the equipment at this stage, (I am normally a pretty thrifty person, outside of my kids' sports & their accompanying expenses ... haha), and partly because it took my daughter a year to get her axel, and another year to get it consistent - somewhat condensed but a similar pattern with the double sal. This year, very off again and on again with double loop and double toe (mostly off vs. on) ... her feet are fully grown, as she had a big growth spurt last year (and some additional weight gain & growth during rink shut down), which is why I was ok with the Ice Fly upgrade & put off replacing the Choruses until I was pretty sure - I think she had high hopes for the Ice Fly as a friend at a similar level transitioned from Chorus to Ice Fly (without the blade change) and was landing her 2T and 2Loop shortly afterward. My daughter's new boot and blade combo is noticeably heavier than the last one, though, so the "lightweight Ice Fly" is indetectable. Feels like a waste $$, but she says that they are "even more comfortable than the Choruses," which she also finds comfortable...

My daughter is 13 and would likely never need a blade beyond an intermediate one; she's mainly moving through MIF (Novice) tests, Ice Dance (PreJuv) tests, Freestyle (PreJuv) tests, but she enjoys doing a couple of competitions a year, working on a new program, feels accomplished when finally landing a new jump or getting it consistent, learning a new spin, skates maybe about 5-6 hours per week, including two 30 min lessons. All of the Ice Dances she's learned have come very quickly & easily for her vs. Freestyle, and I think her coach thinks that's more of the pathway for her, so maybe her coach thinks that a blade change that would lead to some backtracking in jumps isn't a big deal, but I guess I see more time, effort, money in making a big blade adjustment than simply swapping out blades with something that's more similar to what she was using with the Choruses.

My daughter put on the old skates for half a session last week and was landing her double sal just fine. She's skated in the new skates for about 8 hours or so at this point; the things that she struggled with the first hour on the skates haven't improved, and I guess I'm ready to "cut our losses" and be able to resell them before she's having to put a bunch of time in and then make another adjustment ...

I'm wondering if the Coronation Ace Lite would be a better transition that would also satisfy the coach's desire for a blade that's less flat resulting in better edges, etc.? They would be lighter like the Legacy 8" (they're not nearly as light as the newer Legacies, but much lighter than the MK Pro), "curvier" (as coach recommended, with 7" rocker), but they have a 27" spin rocker radius like the Legacies vs. the 12" spin rocker radius like the MK Pros, or perhaps the Legacy 7?" ... only thing missing would seem to be the less pronounced toe pick ... Both skate tech and I thought Matrix Legacy was good next step for a blade replacement, but Coach definitely prefers the more classic look, sound, and composition of a traditional blade ... my daughter wanted to move up to Ice Fly and the newer-looking Legacy with the cutouts, as she thought she just needed new blades to accommodate moving up in size...

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Hi! Thanks so much for the tips and ideas thus far!! Keep them coming!
More to the story ... my daughter's coach didn't say she was specifically recommending a blade change to help her with consistency on twizzles or with 2T ... she was recommending a blade change when replacing boots and said that she would recommend the MK Pro because "it's a nice blade, people like it and do really well with it" ... and then I believe I said, "would changing blades help her with 2T or other skills she's struggling with?" ... the answer was: "yes, they're nice blades, not as flat, bigger toe pick" ...
I think she has had other skaters transition to the MK Pro and it was a smooth transition & a positive change, so I guess it's natural that she would recommend them.

I hesitated on the coach's recommendation because I've read up on blade profiles, skating boots, etc. partly because of the expense of the equipment at this stage, (I am normally a pretty thrifty person, outside of my kids' sports & their accompanying expenses ... haha), and partly because it took my daughter a year to get her axel, and another year to get it consistent - somewhat condensed but a similar pattern with the double sal. This year, very off again and on again with double loop and double toe (mostly off vs. on) ... her feet are fully grown, as she had a big growth spurt last year (and some additional weight gain & growth during rink shut down), which is why I was ok with the Ice Fly upgrade & put off replacing the Choruses until I was pretty sure - I think she had high hopes for the Ice Fly as a friend at a similar level transitioned from Chorus to Ice Fly (without the blade change) and was landing her 2T and 2Loop shortly afterward. My daughter's new boot and blade combo is noticeably heavier than the last one, though, so the "lightweight Ice Fly" is indetectable. Feels like a waste $$, but she says that they are "even more comfortable than the Choruses," which she also finds comfortable...

My daughter is 13 and would likely never need a blade beyond an intermediate one; she's mainly moving through MIF (Novice) tests, Ice Dance (PreJuv) tests, Freestyle (PreJuv) tests, but she enjoys doing a couple of competitions a year, working on a new program, feels accomplished when finally landing a new jump or getting it consistent, learning a new spin, skates maybe about 5-6 hours per week, including two 30 min lessons. All of the Ice Dances she's learned have come very quickly & easily for her vs. Freestyle, and I think her coach thinks that's more of the pathway for her, so maybe her coach thinks that a blade change that would lead to some backtracking in jumps isn't a big deal, but I guess I see more time, effort, money in making a big blade adjustment than simply swapping out blades with something that's more similar to what she was using with the Choruses.

My daughter put on the old skates for half a session last week and was landing her double sal just fine. She's skated in the new skates for about 8 hours or so at this point; the things that she struggled with the first hour on the skates haven't improved, and I guess I'm ready to "cut our losses" and be able to resell them before she's having to put a bunch of time in and then make another adjustment ...

I'm wondering if the Coronation Ace Lite would be a better transition that would also satisfy the coach's desire for a blade that's less flat resulting in better edges, etc.? They would be lighter like the Legacy 8" (they're not nearly as light as the newer Legacies, but much lighter than the MK Pro), "curvier" (as coach recommended, with 7" rocker), but they have a 27" spin rocker radius like the Legacies vs. the 12" spin rocker radius like the MK Pros, or perhaps the Legacy 7?" ... only thing missing would seem to be the less pronounced toe pick ... Both skate tech and I thought Matrix Legacy was good next step for a blade replacement, but Coach definitely prefers the more classic look, sound, and composition of a traditional blade ... my daughter wanted to move up to Ice Fly and the newer-looking Legacy with the cutouts, as she thought she just needed new blades to accommodate moving up in size...

Sorry for weird formatting it won't let me quote parts on phone
'"lightweight Ice Fly" is undetectable' <- you'd probably only notice it being light if the same blades were used, especially as going up in size is something that will increase weight too. Furthermore the ice fly is a stronger boot so its more of it being lightweight compared to strength (was originally designed as a lightweight piano alternative).

'My daughter is 13 and would likely never need a blade beyond an intermediate one' <- Sometimes skaters just click and land all doubles within a week etc.

'Coronation Ace Lite would be a better transition' <- I don't understand your coaches extreme desire for a 7' rocker - I've never met a coach in my life that particularly wants this. Of course, some prefer flatter rockers for personal reasons, but they don't push so hard for it for their skaters. There are two differences I find with Jackson blades (such as Legacy etc) and John Wilsons. One is that the Jacksons will find you pitched slightly further forwards - shorter time to hit the big toe. This has positives and negatives depending on style of skating. The other is most JW blades have two rockers. The Coronation Ace secondary rocker might be subtle, but I definitely can feel it with gold seal.

I also wouldn't fuss with lite, go for regular Coronation Ace if you are going that way. If you need light blades to jump, then you absolutely shouldn't have light blades. I know that doesn't make sense, but the point is you should always build up enough ability to jump in standard blades before trying a lighter option which might give you a bit of an extra boost as icing on the cake. Technique and strength is important to develop, and light blades might prevent it from being developed to the absolute maximum potential.

'wanted to move up to Ice Fly and the newer-looking Legacy with the cutouts, as she thought she just needed new blades to accommodate moving up in size...' <- Usually when you upgrade to a better boot, you either keep the same type of blade or go to a higher performance blade. Moving to a lower performance blade doesn't make too much sense to me, unless you over-estimated the need when originally choosing a blade with higher performance; or the higher performance blade isn't working. The MK Pro isn't a worse blade - some view it as better but it's not a big step up and not really worth a switch.

"it's a nice blade, people like it and do really well with it"
People do well with all sorts of blades. It's a really strange reason to switch. There are plenty of nice blades that people do well with, and one of them is the previous blade you used.

 

[gliese]

This might seem a little snarky, but I promise it isn't meant that way: I'd suggest finding a coach that fixes technique instead of expecting equipment to do the coaching work for them. Equipment doesn't help skating unless the wrong equipment was used to begin with.

 

[eccpp]

Hi! Thanks again for the added insight and tips! I'm now thinking that maybe moving to Gold Seals and getting another pair of Choruses would have maybe been a better transition in terms of moving up with equipment when moving up in size. The kids don't seem to pay attention to the blades as much, though, yet they seem to know they want the Ice Fly skates ... haha.

I think the comment about the Jackson blades pitching people slightly forward might be the reason that my daughter's coach doesn't want her on them anymore. I know there was a comment on her last test (Intermediate MIF) about being on toes too much for something, so that could be it - maybe she's thinking that a blade that doesn't tend to do that will be more helpful as she's prepping for Novice MIF(?) ... or maybe the 7" rocker is better for ice dance? I've also read that the 7" rocker is better for intermediate/low-intermediate skaters, so maybe that's part of why she didn't recommend one of the pricier advanced blades with the 8" rocker too ...

My daughter's been through two sets of Legacy 8" blades on two sets of skates from early MIF tests and when she was doing synchro, wrapping up the FS leveled group classes, wrapping up singles, learning & landing axel, double sal, flying spins ... it just seems like she's maybe too familiar with the 8" rocker and 27" spin rocker at this point to move to a 7" rocker and 12" spin rocker at this point? Or, at least, maybe not at the same time as a boot change? ..... I think I will maybe give it another week or so (to see if she's getting more comfortable after some more hours on the skates) and then talk to the skate tech about my concerns and see if he has any other ideas for us as to what he would recommend, before putting in the additional screws for full mount and next sharpening ...

I'll also consolidate some of the great recommendations you've all provided when discussing next steps with him too.

I was trying to remember what my daughter had years ago before she was on the Legacy and I believe it was Riedell Volant (which it looks like is a 7" rocker) with Riedell Motion boots ... when she moved to Legacy, she saw almost immediate progress and was happy about the switch ... then again, when she moved from the Riedell Motion to the Edea Chorus ... again, noticed immediate progress and was happy about the switch ... now. I guess it's the first time there's been a setback with new equipment, and it's more expensive equipment this time too.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Hi! Thanks again for the added insight and tips! I'm now thinking that maybe moving to Gold Seals and getting another pair of Choruses would have maybe been a better transition in terms of moving up with equipment when moving up in size. The kids don't seem to pay attention to the blades as much, though, yet they seem to know they want the Ice Fly skates ... haha.

I think the comment about the Jackson blades pitching people slightly forward might be the reason that my daughter's coach doesn't want her on them anymore. I know there was a comment on her last test (Intermediate MIF) about being on toes too much for something, so that could be it - maybe she's thinking that a blade that doesn't tend to do that will be more helpful as she's prepping for Novice MIF(?) ... or maybe the 7" rocker is better for ice dance? I've also read that the 7" rocker is better for intermediate/low-intermediate skaters, so maybe that's part of why she didn't recommend one of the pricier advanced blades with the 8" rocker too ...

My daughter's been through two sets of Legacy 8" blades on two sets of skates from early MIF tests and when she was doing synchro, wrapping up the FS leveled group classes, wrapping up singles, learning & landing axel, double sal, flying spins ... it just seems like she's maybe too familiar with the 8" rocker and 27" spin rocker at this point to move to a 7" rocker and 12" spin rocker at this point? Or, at least, maybe not at the same time as a boot change? ..... I think I will maybe give it another week or so (to see if she's getting more comfortable after some more hours on the skates) and then talk to the skate tech about my concerns and see if he has any other ideas for us as to what he would recommend, before putting in the additional screws for full mount and next sharpening ...

I'll also consolidate some of the great recommendations you've all provided when discussing next steps with him too.

I was trying to remember what my daughter had years ago before she was on the Legacy and I believe it was Riedell Volant (which it looks like is a 7" rocker) with Riedell Motion boots ... when she moved to Legacy, she saw almost immediate progress and was happy about the switch ... then again, when she moved from the Riedell Motion to the Edea Chorus ... again, noticed immediate progress and was happy about the switch ... now. I guess it's the first time there's been a setback with new equipment, and it's more expensive equipment this time too.

Bolded part....you're just thinking this?!?! I suggested it in my first post in this thread to you. Your kid needs a gold seal and to stay in the boots she's in or to get the heck out of EDEA to begin with.

It depends on the Wilson blade models and varies if they have a higher shank in the back that so-called tips a skater forward. I've never had a problem with it, but have heard of a few models doing it. I've worn every blade there is to wear and my suggestion was solid. Same with Jackson blades "tipping".

If coach wants the kid to have a bigger pick and a 7ft rocker, then she needs to look into the Phantom (I have worn them in the past, and others here have sworn by them....they can't be that bad it's Patrick Chan's go to blade for years).

As far as your other post in this thread which I did not quote...your skater might have a better future in ice dance and it seems like she does better and enjoys it. May want to just ditch the current set up all together and have a chat with her about possibly investing in dance blades and a dance boot or a low cut freestyle boot. Be aware that dance blades are shorter heel, not as defined edges and picks.

Seriously, she has nothing to lose. I have done both disciplines to elite level in my career.

Good luck!

 

[eccpp]

Hi all,
Four months later and my daughter is finally willing to try a different skate setup, lots of falling - got double sal back, lost it ... got double flip back, lost it ... (has double flip a little more consistent than double sal now. Double toe was inconsistent on old skate setup, and totally nonexistent on current skate setup). Not sure if some of this is typical; her coach is saying it's bad technique habits developing, as does another coach, but there was a pretty clear drop off in her ability to land jumps and center spins since the boot and blade change.

Skate tech thinks that Gold Seals are overkill and I'm not feeling like spending that type of money at this point, though - honestly - I feel like the money spent on new blades - even if it's just as an experiment to see if that helps anything would be more worthwhile than hanging on to the current boot-blade setup, and constant tweaking of technique for skills she previously had pretty solid.
My daughter is interested in putting Legacy 8"s (blades she had previously) on her current Ice Fly boots; I'm thinking of trying the Legacy 7" since her coach seems to really prefer the 7" rockered blades; otherwise, thinking of the Coro Ace as I feel like if it's the most commonly chosen blade that I can't really go wrong ... but whether it will be different enough from the MK Pro to make any difference? .. who knows(?) ...

Not looking for any miracles here, just want to see some sort of incremental positive momentum, and less falling.

Thinking that the 27" spin rocker of both the Legacy 7" and the Coro Ace could perhaps provide better stability?

Not sure how many holes are left on Ice Fly boots after an initial adjustment to blade mount was made (maybe 2?) ...
Not sure how many blade changes one can make using the same boots, but I'm thinking ... probably just one? maybe two?

 

[sashavis]

Equipment obviously makes a huge change in how you are able to perform, but it sounds like your skater might have a bit of a mental block and some technique issues. The boots and blades don't do the skating for you--you do. They help, and obviously you need to feel comfortable, but there's only so much you can do.

As for blades, I've used the Jackson Apex Supremes in the past (switched to gold seals, however), and I loved them. They're lightweight, less expensive than gold seals, and they've got a super nice profile (similar to the gold seal). I used them with my Ice Flies, as that's the only boot that works for my feet, and I was landing all doubles and a few triples in them, and I felt super secure. I highly recommend them.

Also--the coach might prefer a 7'' rocker, but if your skater doesn't, then perhaps you might want to reevaluate and speak to the coach. You have to find what works for your skater and feels best. It's odd that the coach is so insistent on the 7'' rocker.