Weird things afoot...

[Mathman]

To get back to the original opic of which disciplines the United States is likely to be strongest in in the future, here is a new article on the USFS site about the Junior Grand Prix Final.

In ladies, the U.S. has five of the eight spots, including the top four.

In men's, the same.

In pairs we also have five teams in the finals, amd two dance teams.

Japan, look out!

http://www.usfsa.org/event_story.asp?id=36918

 

[gio]

I don't think that the USA saw a decline in Ladies. The beggining of this season was ufortunate for the USA, because 2006/2007 is a season of transition for this nation. After the retirement of Michelle and Sasha, the USA have plenty of young talents that can seriously destroy the Japanese supremacy in next years. And Kimmie Meissner can surprise us at Worlds in 2007, as she did last year.
I think that Russia is in a serious decline. I remember in 1999 and 2000 when there were Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, Sokolova, Soldatova and Volchkova, all capable of placing in the top10 at Worlds. Now they have Sokolova and Martinova.
USA ladies were always strong after 1950. Just their opponents changed. In the 70s and in the 80s it was USA vs DDR (Seyfert, Errath, Potzsch and Witt). In the early 90s three Americans stood on the Worlds podium. Their rivals were Ito, Baiul and Chen.The years between 1998 and 2003 were 5 years of battles between USA girls and Russia girls (especially Kwan vs Slutskaya). But the Japanese were becoming every year stronger and stronger. Now it seems a Japanese (and 1 Korean) supremacy. But the USA will find their new weapons.

 

[gio]

Now that I think a little bit more about Germany, it is a pity that it is that weak now. For 20 years it was a leading country in Ladies skating. Well East Germany (DDR), not West Germany.

at Worlds
-Gabriele Seyfert = 2 golds (1969 and 70); 3 silvers (1966, 67 and 68)
-Christine Errath = 1 gold (1974); 1 silver (1976); 2 bronzes (1973 and 75)
-Anett Potzsch = 2 golds (1978 and 80); 2 silvers (1977 and 79)
-Katarina Witt = 4 golds (1984, 85, 87 and 88); 2 silvers (1982 and 86)
tot = 9 golds; 8 silvers and 2 bronzes = 19 WORLD MEDALS

at Olympics
-3 golds (!!!) = Potzsch (80); Witt (84 and 88)
-1 silver = Seyfert (68)
-1 bronze = Errath (76)
tot = 5 OLYMPIC MEDALS

 

[gio]

Today I'm in the mood of counting the medals. The USA is leading the discipline with continuity from 1953!!! The other countries had just some big periods (Germany, Russia, Hungary, Norway).

Ranking by Gold Medals at Worlds
1.USA = 26 (between 1953 and 2006)
2.GERMANY = 10 (9 EAST GERMANY, 1 WEST GERMANY) (between 1954 and 1988) (for East Germany between 1969 and 1988)
2.NORWAY = 10 (all by Henie between 1927 and 1936)
4.HUNGARY = 7 (between 1908 and 1914 by various skaters)
4.AUSTRIA = 7 (between 1922 and 1926 by Szabo and in the early 70s by Schuba)
6.GREAT BRITAIN = 6 (between 1906 and 1951)
7.NETHERLANDS = 4 (between 1962 and 1975 by Djikastra and De Leeuw)
7.CANADA = 4 (between 1947 and 1973 by Scott, Burka and Magnusson)
9.JAPAN = 3 (between 1989 and 2004 by Ito, Sato and Arakawa)
9.RUSSIA = 3 (between 1999 (!!!) and 2005 by Butyrskaya and Slutskaya)
11.CZECHOSLOVAKIA = 2 (1949 and 1950 by Vrzanova)
12.FRANCE = 1 (Du Bief in 1952)
12.SWITZERLAND = 1 (Biellmann in 1981)
12.UKRAINE = 1 (Baiul in 1993)
12.CHINA = 1 (Chen in 1995)

 

[Mathman]

Interesting numbers, Gio.

I would too, I believe that was a similar situation with Miki going too - as well the Olys.????

That was pretty weird all the way around. Japan qualified three ladies, mostly on the showings of Fumie (5th) and Miki (6th) at 2005 Worlds (Shizuka also competed and finished 9th).

But Miki was already sliding backward and in the fall season Yukari Nakano (she did a triple Axel right in front of me in Skate America 2002!) was coming on strong. Yukari outskated Ando decisively all fall.

But the Japanese Federation had installed a point system that took into account results over the previous three seasons. At Japanese nationals, thanks to some questionable placements in the lower ranks (Onda should have placed above Ando), Miki was still the tiniest bit ahead on points, so she got to go to the Olympics with Fumie and Shizuka.

Yukari and Yoshie didn't protest, and they were both sent to Worlds as a consolation prize.

In men's, a similar thing happened. Japan qualified only one man when Takahashi got 15th and Takeshi Honda had to withdraw because of illness form 2005 worlds. It came down to Oda versus Takahashi for the one spot. At Japanese nationals Oda won -- but no, the computer made a mistake, Daisuki won instead!

Takahashi went to the Olympics (6th place) and Oda went to Worlds (4th).

Actually, not to pick on my favorite country in skating, but the Japanese Skating Federation is going through some tough times, what with their president and officers having to resign in disgrace in various financial scandals and all.

Here is a new article (from the GS main page) about the latest arrests of officials for embezzling the procedes of the NHK Grand prix events.

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117954572.html?categoryid=18&cs=1

 

[SeaniBu]

Interesting numbers, Gio.That was pretty weird all the way around. Japan qualified three ladies, mostly on the showings of Fumie (5th) and Miki (6th) at 2005 Worlds (Shizuka also competed and finished 9th).
............http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117954572.html?categoryid=18&cs=1

Thanks for the info:agree: explained it well.

 

[antmanb]

I have a question about how that works. Like when Lu Chen had to go the qualifying route to get into 1998 Olympics (then she won the bronze medal!)

It's still the country than qualifies for the extra spot, right? So technically the Chinese Federation could have sent someone else instead of Chen, even though she was the one that won the spot for them?

Yes they qualify a spot for their country and then the federation decides who to send (if anyone at all).

Britain has sometimes qualified a spot for the Olympics by attending the qualifying competition. NISA has still then refused to send them on the basis that they still require a skater to finish in the top 15 at worlds in order to be sent. If the skater had finished int he to p15 they woudl qualify a place for the Olympics anyway!

I think the real problem was a real life example of Lesley (i forget her surname) and Mike Aldred who were paris skaters for the UK. They had risen steadily and at 1997 worlds they were in 7th place after the short. She fell in the morning practice before the LP and they had to withdraw. The went to teh autumn qualifying competition and qualified for the Olympics and NISA refused to send them because, by withdrawing, they did not come in the top half of the draw at worlds. It was a ridiculous decision and one that the skaters rected to by retiring...way to go NISA to encourage your skaters to develop. I think NISA learnt because they bent over backwards to bend the rules (i think to get Jenna McCorkell to get to teh olympics) but she imploded at worlds and finished something like 23 or 24.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think the problem does NOT lie (or is it lay?) with the athletes. There are no shortages of students of figure skating in the US and I believe in the World. There is no shortage of coaches (some making a good living out of it). There is no problems with the Federations who also need a jobs.

I believe the problem lies (lays?) with the public due to the media loving to put figure skating down. It has been treated in the US as a 'little girl's' sport and apparently on the same news worthiness as Little Leage scores each week, and when you think about it, how many Pagaent winners do we know of? They only become popular with bad publicity: Knee bashing, overage pitchers, murder.

My question is how do you change that so the public gets interested in figure skating as an adult sport as there is in Tennis?

Joe

 

[gio]

I think the problem does NOT lie (or is it lay?) with the athletes. There are no shortages of students of figure skating in the US and I believe in the World. There is no shortage of coaches (some making a good living out of it). There is no problems with the Federations who also need a jobs.

I believe the problem lies (lays?) with the public due to the media loving to put figure skating down. It has been treated in the US as a 'little girl's' sport and apparently on the same news worthiness as Little Leage scores each week, and when you think about it, how many Pagaent winners do we know of? They only become popular with bad publicity: Knee bashing, overage pitchers, murder.

My question is how do you change that so the public gets interested in figure skating as an adult sport as there is in Tennis?

Joe

This surprises me!! I always thought that in the USA FS was a popular sport in terms of public and media. I'm always complaining about the low interest for FS in Italy, saying that in the USA skaters are treated like stars!
It's a shame that such a beautiful sport is treated as it is nothing. I don't understand how people can't love this sport.

 

[debdelilah]

I think the problem does NOT lie (or is it lay?) with the athletes. There are no shortages of students of figure skating in the US and I believe in the World. There is no shortage of coaches (some making a good living out of it). There is no problems with the Federations who also need a jobs.

I believe the problem lies (lays?) with the public due to the media loving to put figure skating down. It has been treated in the US as a 'little girl's' sport and apparently on the same news worthiness as Little Leage scores each week, and when you think about it, how many Pagaent winners do we know of? They only become popular with bad publicity: Knee bashing, overage pitchers, murder.

My question is how do you change that so the public gets interested in figure skating as an adult sport as there is in Tennis?

Joe

Maybe the problem is the Nationalism in the coverage, since it's percieved as an Olympic sport? The reporting doesn't tend to give much focus at all to international skaters.

 

[antmanb]

I think the problem does NOT lie (or is it lay?) with the athletes. There are no shortages of students of figure skating in the US and I believe in the World. There is no shortage of coaches (some making a good living out of it). There is no problems with the Federations who also need a jobs.

I believe the problem lies (lays?) with the public due to the media loving to put figure skating down. It has been treated in the US as a 'little girl's' sport and apparently on the same news worthiness as Little Leage scores each week, and when you think about it, how many Pagaent winners do we know of? They only become popular with bad publicity: Knee bashing, overage pitchers, murder.

My question is how do you change that so the public gets interested in figure skating as an adult sport as there is in Tennis?

Joe

Believe it or not in the UK the show Dancing on Ice (i don't know what the equivalent is the US - skating with the stars or something like that). That tv show increased interest in figure skating like you wouldn't believe. I'm sure i've posted this before but rinks in the UK were over-run with people (i only witnessed the adult craze for it but i'm sure it worked on the kids too) trying to book up for learn to skate lessons. Our adult group went from around 6 skaters to around 60 overnight - the rink couldn't cope and there were people queueing right around the building trying to get in! The show finished i think for christmas or new year and still now there are some 30 skaters in our adult group learn to skate class.

the show is due to start again soon and i can only imagine that the rink will be flooded with people again. I thihnk the show was good showing the masses how difficult it is to learn to skate and look good doing it. It shows that you might be able to do the steps but if you don't look good while doing them it doesn't bode well. It helps that the UK series has Torvill and Dean helping in the training of the skaters and doing a little routine at the start of every show. It sort of legitimises it in the public's eyes since they are so well known, and for being one of the best in history.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Nice to here that Ant. They should be among the many students interested in skating. But are they concerned about the next World Champion?

Joe

 

[Mafke]

Some problems:

Skating is too tied to the olympics (a fading franchise).

There's no compelling narrative in modern skating. In the past their were two.

- (like many other sports) it was a coldwar proxy as eastbloc and western skaters dueled.

- there was the tension between figures specialists and free skating stars.

No more cold war, no more figures. This left the artist vs athlete dynamic, but it's rarely been compelling since 1988. Also, COP has gutted that by rewarding fully rotated falls and punishing slightly underrotated jumps and the totally detached from reality use of PCS's.

Now it's a pure jumping contest and that ultimately is a big bore. The NJS has sucked both athleticism and artistry right out and so the skaters are like minor variations of each other (I've had less desire to rewatch the LP's from Torino than any competition ever).

Skating needs a non-olympics related fan base and some kind of narrative with clearly differentiated _kinds_ of competitors.

 

[gio]

Some problems:

Skating is too tied to the olympics (a fading franchise).

There's no compelling narrative in modern skating. In the past their were two.

- (like many other sports) it was a coldwar proxy as eastbloc and western skaters dueled.

- there was the tension between figures specialists and free skating stars.

No more cold war, no more figures. This left the artist vs athlete dynamic, but it's rarely been compelling since 1988. Also, COP has gutted that by rewarding fully rotated falls and punishing slightly underrotated jumps and the totally detached from reality use of PCS's.

Now it's a pure jumping contest and that ultimately is a big bore. The NJS has sucked both athleticism and artistry right out and so the skaters are like minor variations of each other (I've had less desire to rewatch the LP's from Torino than any competition ever).

Skating needs a non-olympics related fan base and some kind of narrative with clearly differentiated _kinds_ of competitors.

That's right! In this period I enjoy more watching the old vids of the 70s and 80's from fsvids than the vids from this year GP.

 

[enlight78]

I think the reason figureskating is becoming a jumping sport is because one can improve their jumping technique a lot faster then they can learn to sell hard choreography or skate with one's emotions. It is a lot easier to teach some how to clap their hand than it is to teach some one to do it with rythem. You hear about skater's goals being triple axels or quads. You don't hear about skaters wanting to get a nine in interpetation.

 

[SeaniBu]

I think the reason figureskating is becoming a jumping sport is because one can improve their jumping technique a lot faster then they can learn to sell hard choreography or skate with one's emotions. It is a lot easier to teach some how to clap their hand than it is to teach some one to do it with rythem. You hear about skater's goals being triple axels or quads. You don't hear about skaters wanting to get a nine in interpetation.

Although this topic of "jump" importance is valid I don't subscribe to the theory anymore that is what it is becoming. I think the "settle in" period is not over and due to the skaters performances I have been seeing, it is still there for them. The Skaters still put it in when they can even when they might not need to. I think they see the future too, and that is one where the balance will come and the FS community will see this change was a good one but needed some time to work out the "quirks."

Time will tell but I am not about to "tell them to pull the rookie quarterback" - if you get the drift.

I also feel without MK dominating so much (being as so many people seem to only focus on #1) the field is more evened and the "pensive" feeling that is common in sports will be something else to look forward to - as I have been enjoying. Thank goodness IMO it is not more about who comes in after Kwan. Even though she is missed by me as well, I must move on and focus on the future instead of dwelling on the past.

Weird things will be a foot for a little while longer I am sure. And a time will come where the world of FS regains it's rightful place in the popular sports again. JMO with the PMA.

 

[Mafke]

Although this topic of "jump" importance is valid I don't subscribe to the theory anymore that is what it is becoming. I think the "settle in" period is not over and due to the skaters performances I have been seeing, it is still there for them. The Skaters still put it in when they can even when they might not need to. I think they see the future too, and that is one where the balance will come and the FS community will see this change was a good one but needed some time to work out the "quirks."

The problem is that whatever COP rewards is what skaters will try to do (see the Biellmann contortionist spiral nightmares of last season, see ugly inside camels, etc etc etc).

My suggestion: get back to basics. Eliminate levels of spins beyond types as in the SP (flying entrance, camel, layback, etc) and really _grade_ on level of execution with some discretionary points for innovative difficult positions (which aren't worth it if they're poorly done). I'll be glad to put up with similar easy spins if they're well executed.

For jumps, refigure the GOE, falling should earn a skater no points, underrotation and two footing should be punished some.

 

[Mafke]

Also contributing to the boredom I feel with modern skating is the NJS and the way scores are announced. No nationalities, no individual marks, no symbolic award for perfection, it's all boring boring boring. The old system could be infuriating but it had a long, rich tradition and contributed to the emotional kick that skating could provide. The new system is just boring (as was the interim system).

A successful sport needs unpredictability (too lacking in recent years), champions with personality, archetypes of competitors and a feeling of competition for the sake of competition. That is, the competition going on is being held for its own sake and not as some kind of runner up for something else (especially if that something else only happens once every four years and has been inconsistent in provisioning stars).

 

[SeaniBu]

:agree: Good suggestions like that and some time and I think there will be a nice place for all to feel satisfied - time is key IMO. "Trial and error." Buck up little campers - who can name that movie?, it will get better - I believe / hope!

 

[dutchherder]

I think the problem does NOT lie (or is it lay?) with the athletes.

As an English teacher, I can assure you that the correct word is "lie". :yes: