What has changed for the better in figure skating?

[dorispulaski]

These days in Novice dance competitions, where compulsory dances are still skated, they are not boring because the teams get to pick their own music, provided it has the correct time signature and correct number of beats per minute. Picking music is easier because it is easy to slow down or speed up music appropriately to meet the bpm requirements with music editing programs. The sad part is there are no compulsories in at least Juniors. I miss them!

And yes, I remember the precision of both Torvill & Dean and Trixie Schuba's repetitions. It was reported that Trixie cut her tracings so deeply that she deliberately offset the third tracing by a tiny amount so as not to trip. Also her figures were noticeably bigger than the other competitors because she was a stronger skater. And the circles were perfectly circular, and perfectly on axis. Remember the skater had to be able to do this without any guidelines on the ice!

Torvill and Dean were the greatest of all time on 6.0 style compulsories. As many as 3,000 people would show up at Europeans to watch perfection. To get perfect overlay of tracings, the skaters had to be in amazing physical shape to maintain completely even speed throughout the program

I saw them do CD's in 1981 at Hartford Worlds. I knew how hard it was to just do figures and get them to overlay perfectly. None of the other dancers were even close.

Anything done that well can be mesmerizing.

IJS CD's had how exactly the difficult turns were to be done defined very precisely as to how the toe or heel of the skate had to be placed. It was different from the way 6.0 skaters did them. I remember one of the Russian coaches laughing that he had not learned them that way, so coaching CDs in IJS was difficult.

I like being able to watch whole competitions these days.

I remember pulling up Heather's Figure Skating Page just to be able find when skating would be on TV.

I remember taping 1988 Europeans on some 3 hour program block of random sports only to find the only skating on it was Katarina Witt's SP, and all that was discussed was whether her skirt was illegal.

 

[el henry]

@dorispulaski brings up a great point, watching skating is soooo much more accessible today, copyright or no copyright.

I was a simple fan, not a skating insider. I saw what the networks showed me. Who was finishing tenth at Nationals, so I could make up my own mind? Not so much. "Challengers" or other countries comps? Not at all. We have way more access today.

 

[AxelLover]

I'm not going to repeat all the improvements that have already been mentioned. Another thing that comes to my mind is the introduction of the reverse order in the free skate and also the fact that the division to groups in the short is based on world standings.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

If we can extend the period to the 1980s, I would say: the rendition of Music, the quality of Ice (except in Grenoble) and the quality of the skates (blades included). IJS seems to be working well where there is no big medal at stake (in the competition or later for the same Skater) but has completely derailed, not only in PCS cooking but in Element Scores, these ten last years, after years of "some leeway" at the top.
In the 1980s, a Music with cover would have been a catastrophe because the sound was so horrible, the most artistic Skaters were so deserving for managing to skate beautifully on it! Actually even Symphonies were not adapted, only Band music was? For me it was a bit like the Gramophone recordings of the 1900s, sometimes 1910s, slightly "better" than previous ones because one could discern the main accents of the music? I would say that today's "average" rendition of Music in Rinks is somehow like 1950s Vinyl Records, quite perfectible but also quite enjoyable? And this does allow covers.
When I left Figure Skating watching briefly after Calgary Games (I was not sorry enough of Brian Orser's Silver behind Brian Boitano, for it to have been an element in my leaving; and I did like Carmen on Ice but it wasn't enough to change my mind), I just thought that these physical odds against Figure Skating were too much to overcome, but they have been overcome, and I cannot thank enough those who made these changes possible.

 

[4everchan]

@DizzyFrenchie inspired me another item... so I am at 11... and its counterpart

Music quality : it is indeed so much better than before. There are even editors who do a lot of figure skating programs (Karl Hugo for instance) even composing and rearranging music specifically to meet figure skating requirements or program construction.
The counterpart is that it's become so easy to manipulate music that it's done sometimes in ways that will piss off any musician. For instance, adding or repeating a musical fragment to allow the skater more time to complete an element. It drives me crazy to hear the opening bit of a phrase (Fragment A to make it simpler) and then get it twice before the closing bit of a phrase (fragment B). Music is often symmetrical so to have a phrase that was supposed to be 8 bars become 12, and more over in a AAB structure is very unsettling . Music editing is now so easy that the butchering or larger works can be done at a large level too. How to fit a 10 minute or 30 minute work all in a short program...

So yes, the quality is better. The editing is by far superior... but having all these tools sometimes has created very upsetting programs musically. I mean, how can you fit as many 80s songs into a rhythm dance challenge shouldn't have ever been a contest we got a while ago.

This being said, I would never go back musically to figure skating programs from the 90s with the mix and match and the awful quality.

I personally like only one piece of music or at least something very cohesive so that's just my opinion here.

 

[Diana Delafield]

Moving competitions indoors in the 1960s. Before my time, but most of the coaches of my era had competed outdoors (or partially -- didn't the Broadmoor used to have three walls and a roof but one open end?) and they had some horror stories to tell. The favourite was the Europeans in the late 1960s when Oleg Protopopov protested having to compete in the rain by holding an umbrella over his wife's head while waiting to be announced and then waiting for their marks at the end.

 

[4everchan]

I cannot believe nobody has mentioned the age rule changes we just had...

I truly believe that this is good for the sport ! Is there a counterpart to this one ? Sure, all the nagging and whining that so and so is not yet eligible...

PS I am at 12 . I got to stop.. a dozen egg is enough

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Judging transparency has improved (though still accountability isn't great and there's still apparent bias). Now skaters who make mistakes aren't able to be held up as easily as base value is base value and if a skater falls or doubles a jump a judge can't just gloss over it like in 6.0.

The introduction of levels is also a welcome change. I know sometimes you don't get those 3 revolution classic spins from the 80's that match the music, but in this day and age, I think spins and footwork need to have much greater complexity and difficulty. In 6.0 a lot of difficult turns and steps were being left out of programs, and while footwork sequences were quick and matched the music, they didn't exhibit the edge control or range of body movement that current footwork has.

Spins also used to be easy AF with not much credence, with 2-rotation revolutions, and sloppy or overly simple basic positions. I know some people think that many spins are contorted/awkward (and yes some) but I like that skaters are being challenged to do difficult, various positions than just a "simple classic sit spin" - which anyone could look up in an old-school Youtube video.

Certainly in pairs the lifts are more complex, and the spin and footwork requirements are way more challenging. You don't see as much side by side unison as in classic pairs, but I like that because it feels less robotic. Transition lifts and even just skating transitions are more evident in programs. Elements haven't gotten hugely more difficult because they aren't credited significantly, but I like how the SBS jumps is no longer the be-all end-all as it used to be, and pairs now need to focus on element quality/execution more holistically. Certainly twists and throws have more amplitude as they are measurably given credit for that.

The biggest change is in ice dance. No longer are ordinals decided pre-competition and change slightly (technical of 5.7 instead of 5.9 dropping the team maybe 1 spot at worst) if a skater falls. PCS is still frequently shady, and levels can make or break a team, but now there's greater scrutiny and requirements, rather than a team just "doing" a pattern and a judge subjectively placing the team higher or lower. Of course, the lifts are now spectacular and it feels way more of a "sport" where technique and difficulty is rewarded rather than who puts on the best dramatics and histrionics for the judges while being supported by their federation. If that's the way ice dancing is moving forward, Soviet—er, I mean, so be it.

 

[Diana Delafield]

I cannot believe nobody has mentioned the age rule changes we just had...

I truly believe that this is good for the sport ! Is there a counterpart to this one ? Sure, all the nagging and whining that so and so is not yet eligible...

PS I am at 12 . I got to stop.. a dozen egg is enough

Related to changing age rules, was it universal or only in Canada that in the past if you won juniors in any discipline you had to move up to seniors the next year? You could only win juniors once (as we did one year when junior pairs was a splatfest and we were the only ones who skated a clean but simpler program). It resulted in some too-young and inexperienced little seniors floundering out of their depth. That was finally changed to age-related qualifications for seniors around the end of the 1980s. 1990, I think.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

@DizzyFrenchie inspired me another item... so I am at 11... and its counterpart

Music quality : it is indeed so much better than before. There are even editors who do a lot of figure skating programs (Karl Hugo for instance) even composing and rearranging music specifically to meet figure skating requirements or program construction.
The counterpart is that it's become so easy to manipulate music that it's done sometimes in ways that will piss off any musician. For instance, adding or repeating a musical fragment to allow the skater more time to complete an element. It drives me crazy to hear the opening bit of a phrase (Fragment A to make it simpler) and then get it twice before the closing bit of a phrase (fragment B). Music is often symmetrical so to have a phrase that was supposed to be 8 bars become 12, and more over in a AAB structure is very unsettling . Music editing is now so easy that the butchering or larger works can be done at a large level too. How to fit a 10 minute or 30 minute work all in a short program...

So yes, the quality is better. The editing is by far superior... but having all these tools sometimes has created very upsetting programs musically. I mean, how can you fit as many 80s songs into a rhythm dance challenge shouldn't have ever been a contest we got a while ago.

This being said, I would never go back musically to figure skating programs from the 90s with the mix and match and the awful quality.

I personally like only one piece of music or at least something very cohesive so that's just my opinion here.

I have in mind a very beautiful Short Program Music from a 10 minute piece from the Composer I'm most fastidious about (of course it's by no way the whole piece and doesn't pretend to, but it's a beautiful piece by itself); and while listening to some musics, I wonder if part of it couldn't be arranged into a Figure Skating music, but overall I agree so much! I believe that when the Music is really wrong, it may indirectly affect the Composition score?

I cannot believe nobody has mentioned the age rule changes we just had...

I truly believe that this is good for the sport ! Is there a counterpart to this one ? Sure, all the nagging and whining that so and so is not yet eligible...

PS I am at 12 . I got to stop.. a dozen egg is enough

The Age Limit change is what we call in French, a plaster on a wooden leg. The wooden leg is the actual scoring, when it's against the rules (and it happens only at "the top", where actual scoring is most questionable). If the quality of Elements and the Components were scored fairly, those Skaters who would come in unready at 15 (and who now arrive still unready at 17, we'll see it next year again unless the Skater I'm thinking about is improving radically this off-season, which she has no reason to do as she's scored into the 9s without) would work on their basic skating and the quality of their Elements until they're really able to get high scores; and having to remain in Juniors, for a Skater whose Skating would deserve the highest rewards in Senior, is the opposite of a protection, as in my opinion a Skater is in a stronger position in Senior than in Junior.

 

[gkelly]

Related to changing age rules, was it universal or only in Canada that in the past if you won juniors in any discipline you had to move up to seniors the next year? You could only win juniors once (as we did one year when junior pairs was a splatfest and we were the only ones who skated a clean but simpler program). It resulted in some too-young and inexperienced little seniors floundering out of their depth. That was finally changed to age-related qualifications for seniors around the end of the 1980s. 1990, I think.

Internationally, AFAIK the only limit was that someone who was age eligible for both junior and senior competition could not compete as a junior if they had already won a World medal.

Otherwise, there have been plenty of skaters who competed in both junior and senior events in the same season.
Very rarely a completely senior international season has been followed by a return to juniors.

With the new age rules, there is less overlap between junior and senior age eligibility, so we won't see skaters competing in juniors more than two seasons after making their senior debuts.

At the national level, different federations have different rules and have changed their rules at various times across the history of the sport.

 

[Diana Delafield]

Internationally, AFAIK the only limit was that someone who was age eligible for both junior and senior competition could not compete as a junior if they had already won a World medal.

Otherwise, there have been plenty of skaters who competed in both junior and senior events in the same season.
Very rarely a completely senior international season has been followed by a return to juniors.

With the new age rules, there is less overlap between junior and senior age eligibility, so we won't see skaters competing in juniors more than two seasons after making their senior debuts.

At the national level, different federations have different rules and have changed their rules at various times across the history of the sport.

Probably just in Canada, then. It was back in my competition era, the 1970s and 80s. If you won Novice nationally, you had to move up to Junior the next year no matter what age you were, and the same from Junior to Senior. If you then couldn't pass the freeskate part of the test at that next level, you didn't compete anywhere until you passed it. No staying at or going back to the lower level. And I seem to remember that you couldn't take the next freeskate or free dance test until you'd first passed a certain next level of figures or compulsory dances, so that held back quite a few competitive careers. Pairs was a bit looser, with fewer stepping stones that had to be reached to go on to a next level.

 

[4everchan]

I have in mind a very beautiful Short Program Music from a 10 minute piece from the Composer I'm most fastidious about (of course it's by no way the whole piece and doesn't pretend to, but it's a beautiful piece by itself); and while listening to some musics, I wonder if part of it couldn't be arranged into a Figure Skating music, but overall I agree so much! I believe that when the Music is really wrong, it may indirectly affect the Composition score?

it will not because figure skating judges are not apprised in the subtle art of music It's possible to trim down a piece from 10 minutes to 2. However, it depends on how it's done and how it keeps the essential and vital parts of the music. Some pieces have only one main and central theme, so it's quite possible. When there are multiple themes, if the main them is not featured, then we have a problem but we have been over this many time and it's pointless to go over it again.

However, to illustrate my point, here is a beautiful piece of music that is over 13 minutes



Here is a good program using it. Not perfect but I don't feel shortchanged.

 

[4everchan]

The Age Limit change is what we call in French, a plaster on a wooden leg. The wooden leg is the actual scoring, when it's against the rules (and it happens only at "the top", where actual scoring is most questionable). If the quality of Elements and the Components were scored fairly, those Skaters who would come in unready at 15 (and who now arrive still unready at 17, we'll see it next year again unless the Skater I'm thinking about is improving radically this off-season, which she has no reason to do as she's scored into the 9s without) would work on their basic skating and the quality of their Elements until they're really able to get high scores; and having to remain in Juniors, for a Skater whose Skating would deserve the highest rewards in Senior, is the opposite of a protection, as in my opinion a Skater is in a stronger position in Senior than in Junior.

I don't think the scoring is the only problem but I don't want to get into a huge debate here. Raising the age limit in the women's discipline is very important to protect the young girls from all sort of troubles. It is no longer possible for a certain school to create the perfect prepubescent gril with quads to win the top prize and be replaced by the next one. I am all for longevity in the sport and healthy bodies.

 

[yfan1]

Spins also used to be easy AF with not much credence, with 2-rotation revolutions, and sloppy or overly simple basic positions. I know some people think that many spins are contorted/awkward (and yes some) but I like that skaters are being challenged to do difficult, various positions than just a "simple classic sit spin" - which anyone could look up in an old-school Youtube video.

Yeah to me it's more that awkward positions are overrewarded. I'd far rather see a gorgeous standard camel than one with a sloppy free leg - but in the system they're both rewarded the same, and then the judges score it same on GOE as well.

There's no difference between a classic attitude layback versus a layback with a dropped leg either for a level (neither is considered a 'difficult' variation), and judges barely differentiate between the GOE too.

With some better rules and implementation of rules, there's no reason to not keep the more flexible positions. In fact the standard camel and classic layback both require a greater deal of flexibility than some other positions that are considered 'difficult'.

Main thing about spins is that they last too long. Steps too. I think we can make the spins shorter by requiring only three level features (max level 3), though.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

I don't think the scoring is the only problem but I don't want to get into a huge debate here. Raising the age limit in the women's discipline is very important to protect the young girls from all sort of troubles. It is no longer possible for a certain school to create the perfect prepubescent gril with quads to win the top prize and be replaced by the next one. I am all for longevity in the sport and healthy bodies.

Here precisely the scoring was the problem indeed! Do you think that this (likely) wrong would have been done, had not undue medals been awarded? Had real Skating Skills been assessed? At the beginning the School you're alluding to was at least having their Skaters to have Transitions but in the end of their international participations, they wouldn't even bother, as the scores would come without as well! And I'm not speaking of uncalled errors on Elements! They wouldn't have had someone to jump a "Quadruple" Flootz, prerotated by more than 180° and underrotated as much, had there been a downgrade with a -5 GOE in the scores instead of the uncalled 4Lz or 4F with good Grade of Execution it used to get! Changing the Age Limit instead of scoring accurately was not the right solution to the problems arisen!

 

[yfan1]

Recently, videos of Anna Shcherbakova's 2022 Olympic skating were pushed to me. I went in, thinking that maybe time has made me less resistant to her skating.

It has not. The reason I say this is because of the "Transitions" talk. Hers, much like most others' from that school, were done with poor edging, lack of extension, poor body positioning, and many times the transitions into and out of the jump were paired with her slowing down to complete the transition.

Yuna Kim did a fantastic 3F in the 2010 Vancouver SP and then she held that exit and simply raised her hands up. Frankly, that is harder than most of the 'transitions' from the Tutberidze school.

 

[4everchan]

Here precisely the scoring was the problem indeed! Do you think that this (likely) wrong would have been done, had not undue medals been awarded? Had real Skating Skills been assessed? At the beginning the School you're alluding to was at least having their Skaters to have Transitions but in the end of their international participations, they wouldn't even bother, as the scores would come without as well! And I'm not speaking of uncalled errors on Elements! They wouldn't have had someone to jump a "Quadruple" Flootz, prerotated by more than 180° and underrotated as much, had there been a downgrade with a -5 GOE in the scores instead of the uncalled 4Lz or 4F with good Grade of Execution it used to get! Changing the Age Limit instead of scoring accurately was not the right solution to the problems arisen!

I don't disagree with what you are saying about over scoring flawed elements but to me, that's a completely separate argument. The age limit serves more than blocking skaters who are over scored.

 

[gkelly]

Probably just in Canada, then. It was back in my competition era, the 1970s and 80s. If you won Novice nationally, you had to move up to Junior the next year no matter what age you were, and the same from Junior to Senior.

That's separate from something else that Skate Canada did for a while, more recently, where you had to meet junior international age limits to compete in juniors domestically. (I forget whether they had similar requirements for senior and novice national-level competition)

The US has never had age limits for those levels domestically, except I vaguely remember a brief period where novice was divided into A and B groups by age.

For a long time the US did do what you describe in Canada: required novice and junior national champions to move up to the next level. I don't know how long that was true going back to the figures era and whether many winners got stuck by winning novice or junior and then not being able to pass the next level of test. Post-figures, the tests were not too challenging for skaters at the national medalist level.

They first changed the rule in the late 1990s for ice dance, when juniors and seniors still had to train four different pattern dances per year in addition to Original Dance and Free Dance. That was a burden for skaters who had won Nationals at the junior level but intended to compete junior internationally. So it was then allowed for junior dance teams to stay junior domestically after winning the junior national title.

I'm not sure when the rule changed for pairs, and for singles. Definitely by the time Nathan Chen won novice in 2010 at age 10, he was able to stay novice another year, and win again. Then he competed as a junior for three years domestically, placing 1st, 3rd, and 1st at US Nationals at ages 12, 13, and 14, before moving up to seniors domestically at 15, the first year he was eligible to compete senior internationally under the ISU rules at the time.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

That's separate from something else that Skate Canada did for a while, more recently, where you had to meet junior international age limits to compete in juniors domestically. (I forget whether they had similar requirements for senior and novice national-level competition)

The US has never had age limits for those levels domestically, except I vaguely remember a brief period where novice was divided into A and B groups by age.

For a long time the US did do what you describe in Canada: required novice and junior national champions to move up to the next level. I don't know how long that was true going back to the figures era and whether many winners got stuck by winning novice or junior and then not being able to pass the next level of test. Post-figures, the tests were not too challenging for skaters at the national medalist level.

They first changed the rule in the late 1990s for ice dance, when juniors and seniors still had to train four different pattern dances per year in addition to Original Dance and Free Dance. That was a burden for skaters who had won Nationals at the junior level but intended to compete junior internationally. So it was then allowed for junior dance teams to stay junior domestically after winning the junior national title.

I'm not sure when the rule changed for pairs, and for singles. Definitely by the time Nathan Chen won novice in 2010 at age 10, he was able to stay novice another year, and win again. Then he competed as a junior for three years domestically, placing 1st, 3rd, and 1st at US Nationals at ages 12, 13, and 14, before moving up to seniors domestically at 15, the first year he was eligible to compete senior internationally under the ISU rules at the time.

I don't know how it was in France in these decades, but now the only age floors are 13 for junior and 17 for Senior, with up to 6 (usually way less) Junior Skaters or Teams in each category being invited to the Élite Championships (where they have to skate Senior programs), if I remember correctly Lorine Schild was invited some years ago with two other Junior Women from her Reims club, under this policy. The rules allow National officials to make exceptions, but with how Skaters are trained in France (some are really at the top but haven't been precocious prodigies to the point of needing more than what's already allowed) I wouldn't imagine exceptions to be this way, rather the other way, to allow for instance a child recovering from a serious illness that has stopped their growth to compete in the appropriate group height- and development-wise.
There's only one limitation on going down categories: the National Champion in a category can't compete in the category under, even if they're age-eligible (the Nationals calendar starts with Élite and ends with Poussins/Benjamins (under-8s and under-10s)).