Which skater(s) know the CoP best?

[NatachaHatawa]

It's hard to say who actually "knows" the system best, because for a lot of skater's it's just that they manage to get points without particuarly working the system.

I'd Say Kevin Van Der Perren knows how to work the system though.

 

[jyshin]

I had forgotten about Irina. She was the Bielman queen and started a trend that was quickly picked up by the other ladies. lol

Too much of Bielman spins made me puke :disapp: Totally, lost my appetite for figure skate for a while after that. She certainly cashed in her points though.

It was like skating for the sake of the contest! That's not the best reason to repeat the same element over and over again... ek.. :disagree:

 

[Bennett]

I remember, a couple of years ago, Buttle intentionally doubling a jump in the middle of his free program in order to avoid violating the Zayak rule. I'm not sure about his team strategy (I don't like the idea of having 3Lz as his final jump when his consistency on that jump is not the best) but Jeff himself is one smart guy.

I hate the cookie-cutter programs chreographed by Morozov, but the way he maximizes TES without sacrificing PCS is something to be admired. Ingo Steuer is another coach who does a good job in creating ugly but highly-scored programs.

I agree with you about the placement of final lutz in Jeff's LP. That's been a nerve breaking for me. But I am happy that he landed it at Worlds.

What's interesting to me about Morosov's programs is that he has had brilliantly choreographed, masterpiece programs (e.g., most of the pieces for Takahashi, Shizuka's Olympic LP) whereas he also has had choreographically empty, mechanic programs in which the music sounds nothing more than the background to let the skater execute the elements one after another (e.g., Shizuka's Olympic SP, Miki's 2006-7 LP, 2007-8 SP). Both effectively earn points, but the gaps in qualities are so huge.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^

That's an opinon. Nothing wrong with it, but I'm not going to forsake, Lori Nichol or David Wilson in this era of figure skating.

Joe

 

[Bennett]

I feel that Mao team may be both good and bad at CoP.

The selection of jumps seems wise. Her jump layout skillfully covers her weaknesses and get the points from her strong jumps.

But I didn't think it the most efficient strategy for Rafael and Mao to be persistent about the difficult steps going into 3A last season. I mean it was really exciting and spectacular to watch. How many men can do it? I totally admired that. But just in terms of points, the difficult entrance is unfortunately never reflected on your points unless you land it cleanly.

Likewise, her SP steps this season were extremely intricate and looked absolutely gorgeous. I really loved that. But in terms of the points, the steps, which took like a quarter of the program, were worth only 4 point or so. She never got level 4 in ISU events. I feel that the time could have been allocated a little bit more on spirals and spins.

Her LP chorepgraphy was fantastically beautiful. I really loved Nichol's original choreo. But it was also extremely busy. It looked like she needed to drop some of the choreo to create the time for spins.

I feel that she still has a lot of margin to increase points in spins and spirals because she often fails to get intended levels. For example, she would have won the last season's Worlds if she hadn't gotten level 1 in layback spin. She also would have won the SP at this season's Worlds by a comfortable margin if she had gotten all levels 3's and 4's. These appear to be mostly because of the busy, technically challenging programs (partly because of the coachless participation in Worlds at this time).

What she does is all extremely high levels and high qualities. Skaters and judges all understand the greatness of these. But just in terms of getting points under CoP, the richness in quality and the technical difficulties involved in these have not necessarily been translated into points. Perhaps in PCS to some extent, but not necessarily in TES.

Having said that, I still would like her to keep the quality and difficulty regardless of the points though because I believe that that's figure skating. I remember the programs but forget all the scores. I hope that she and her new coach(es) could find a good balance between the two so that she could more comfortably win while doing quality programs.

 

[champs]

Probably the most impressive COP move I saw this year was from Charlie White, who was interviewed about doing 5 twizzles in a sequence when Meryl did 4. He said, I didn't manage to grab my foot on the first twizzle, so I did the extra one so we would still get the level. At the speed that Meryl & Charlie do twizzles, this is some fast thinking.

Could you, dorispulaski, or anyone else, kindly provide a link to this interview? I don't know if it's a printed one or from a TV broadcast, but I'm interested in the whole interview if possible.

 

[equestrianguy]

After seeing the Worlds Ladies competition...most definatly KOSTNER! Getting the Silver after all those falls and step-outs.......LOL
And of course like has been stated...Miss Irina..Queen of the Bielmans!

 

[ks777]

Didn't Takahashi mess up his jump combination counts? Also I wouldn't say Mao understand it best either. She keeps getting lower levels on her layback and spirals.

I think it's Buttle who used the system the smartest.

 

[Bennett]

Yeah, he did. But what I think smart about Dai's program is all the triple jumps in the latter half that all get bonus. Perhaps he couldn't have done so without stamina. But as I think of it, I realize that it looks pretty similar to the previous year's LP. But because Dai is so special in his artistry, I don't mind Morosov's cookie-cutter method.

 

[dorispulaski]

Could you, dorispulaski, or anyone else, kindly provide a link to this interview? I don't know if it's a printed one or from a TV broadcast, but I'm interested in the whole interview if possible.

http://www.goldenskate.com/articles/2007/us_5.shtml

It was from here at GoldenSkate, the Day 5 report

Here's the Meryl & Charlie part:

Davis and White are coming on strong after a disappointing Grand Prix Season, and are pleased with their performances so far here in Saint Paul.

"Certain aspects of the program were better than we have done before," explained White. "But others we have obviously done better. We are pretty happy with how everything went."

Like their teammates, Davis (21) and White (20) also made a mistake on their twizzle sequence, but were not penalized as harshly as Belbin and Agosto.

"I missed my blade on the first twizzle (for) which you need to get four rotations for the level four," admitted White. "To get that level four, I did an extra rotation."

Skating a Russian folk dance to Kalinka, the current bronze medalists used every ounce of energy in their bodies. They skated with lightening speed, and performed appropriate choreography in tandem with difficult skating elements. The young team earned 62.69 points for their program, and are just a little less than three points off the lead heading into the free dance. However, they will have a difficult time overtaking the leaders, as Belbin and Agosto's season best is more than nine points better than their own.

 

[Bennett]

yukari

I feel that yukari hasn't maximized her points yet. I wonder why she doesn't get level 4's on all of her spins although she seems capable of it.

I also feel that she may be better off doing double axel at least once instead of doing all triples that could have URs. Reducing the flip may be a safer stragegy. Raising her arm at the landing of the jump that she is likely to UR is also a bit risky stragegy although it looks choreographically nice.

 

[Wrlmy]

She could change one of two salchows to double axel. But then again, salchow and axel are only jumps she doesn't wrap. I guess there's a reason she's doing two salchows. I would love to see 3t-3l combo she's been working on, but it might be prone to UR. I don't understand how she wraps on loop as well. I thought she wrapped on only toe-pick jumps.
But since the point difference is only 0.5 between double axel and triple toe, she could substitute double axel for 3t. Since she has a nice double axel, she will probably end up with more points.
I remember her lovely double axel in Memoir of Geisha program where she entered from spread eagle and the gorgeous catch-foot exit.

 

[Skye]

I feel that yukari hasn't maximized her points yet. I wonder why she doesn't get level 4's on all of her spins although she seems capable of it.

I also feel that she may be better off doing double axel at least once instead of doing all triples that could have URs. Reducing the flip may be a safer stragegy. Raising her arm at the landing of the jump that she is likely to UR is also a bit risky stragegy although it looks choreographically nice.

As exciting as her endless donut spin is, Yukari really needs to focus on maximizing her spin levels. And like you, I also wonder why she chose to repeat the flip when she could switch to a toeloop (a jump she does not show severe leg wrap and therefore has much better chances to get full rotation) instead. She should keep the 3A though, her consistency is much better than any other ladies attempting it and it's the best way to keep up with all the top guns who have 3-3s.

 

[Bennett]

Back in 2005-6, I had an impression that she used 3T as a plan B to replace with 3F. Perhaps she has upgraded.

Humm I just realized that her 3A may be one of her best jumps this season. Although she has been pretty consistent with 3S and 3T, 3F and 3L have been a bit shaky. 3Lo doesn't seem to have been a very reliable jump for her, either. She missed it a lot a couple of seasons ago when she had it in the program. So replacing one of 3F's with 3T or 2A may be a safer strategy. I think she wants to keep two 3Ss because she is consistent. It might be cool if she does two 3As!

 

[champs]

dorispulaski, thanks for the link :agree:
There are quite a few quotes from the skaters and the author kept his subjective opinions to minimum, I found these reports very informative, I should have checked them out before since theya re on this very site. Thanks again!


Back to the CoP discussion... maybe Kostner and/or her coach knows it well, if I recall her receiving Lv 4 on her step seq this season considering that her step seq looks overall less frantic/energy-consuming than Asada's. But then I guess it's far from safe to infer someone knows CoP well just from a single element of their program.

 

[saltypig]

Kostner's team definitely.

+1

She skated with lots of mistakes and still managed to get silver. Her team must know COP real well or judging was biased

 

[vlaurend]

Coaches are NOT all knowledgeable about IJS. In fact, even one of the top coaches/choreographers in the world--Morozov--has made shocking mistakes. Case in point: Adam Rippon's long program at U.S. Nationals. His final spin--which would have been a well executed CCoSp4, the most valuable base point spin achievable under IJS--was counted as an illegal element and got zero points because Morozov did not pay attention to the balanced program rules for spin requirements for Junior Men. He had two combination spins and no flying spin so the second combination spin didn't count.

Top skaters can also be surprisingly ignorant about IJS, just letting their coaches and choreographers do all the thinking for them. Stephane Lambiel did a 3T-2T this season instead of a planned 4T-3T. When asked why he didn't just do a 3T-3T, he said he didn't know if he was allowed to repeat the same jump in the same combination, admitting he didn't know much about IJS. Daisuke Takahashi and Patrick Chan also made mistakes in judgment at Worlds this year, adding a double toeloop to a jump to turn it into a combination after missing an earlier combination. In both cases, the improvised combination jump got counted as an illegal element and got no points. That mistake cost Takahashi a world medal.

I think Mao Asada is a smart IJS skater and so is Takahiko Kozuka. Kozuka is not one of the top skaters in the world (at least not yet), but he usually gets the maximum possible base points on his spins because he chooses spins that have the highest base points without having the same IJS code, then does each one as a level 4. And his footwork is usually level 3, which is quite hard to get. I have never seen him make a judgment error as far as changing planned jumps, and I don't believe Mao does that, either.

She could change one of two salchows to double axel. But then again, salchow and axel are only jumps she doesn't wrap. I guess there's a reason she's doing two salchows. I would love to see 3t-3l combo she's been working on, but it might be prone to UR. I don't understand how she wraps on loop as well. I thought she wrapped on only toe-pick jumps.

Yukari wraps on all of the jumps that take off and land on the same foot: loop, flip and lutz. She does not wrap on the jumps that take off from the left foot and land on the right foot: toeloop, salchow and axel. That's because on the right foot takeoff jumps, she can bring her thighs together immediately, causing the wrap to happen at the thigh. On left foot takeoff jumps (toeloop, salchow, axel), she cannot bring her thighs together right away because she has to first shift her weight from the takeoff side to the landing side. That transition right after takeoff keeps her legs apart at the thigh so that they come together at the shin instead.

 

[Wrlmy]

Yukari wraps on all of the jumps that take off and land on the same foot: loop, flip and lutz. She does not wrap on the jumps that take off from the left foot and land on the right foot: toeloop, salchow and axel. That's because on the right foot takeoff jumps, she can bring her thighs together immediately, causing the wrap to happen at the thigh. On left foot takeoff jumps (toeloop, salchow, axel), she cannot bring her thighs together right away because she has to first shift her weight from the takeoff side to the landing side. That transition right after takeoff keeps her legs apart at the thigh so that they come together at the shin instead.

Thank you so much for the useful information!