Who did the judges like?

[Mathman]

Technical matters like base values, levels, underrotations and deductions are outside the perimeter of the judges' responsibilities. Going just by GOEs and PCSs, this is how the judges felt about the quality of performances in the men's and ladies' long programs.

Men

Buttle 88.14
Joubert 85.08
Takahashi 75.50
Weir 73.77
Voronov 73.71
Lambiel 71.50
Van der Perren 71.30

Women

Asada 66.06
Kim 64.87
Nakano 62.65
Meier 59.67
Rochette 56.60
Kostner 56.12
Lepisto 53.07

 

[fumie_fumie]

Mathman,

How did you get the numbers? Do you have your formula handy? Or you just added up GOEs and PCS?

 

[Mathman]

I just added up the GOEs and PCSs.

 

[ManyCairns]

Interesting way of crunching the numbers. Thanks for sharing it.

 

[just wondering]

Oooooh, very clever. :agree: Can't wait to try this for other comps.

Thanks Mathman,
JW

 

[Bennett]

Women

Asada 66.06
Kim 64.89
Nakano 62.65

Wow isn't that the podium that many people wanted to see in ladies?

 

[Mathman]

Wow isn't that the podium that many people wanted to see in ladies?

That's just the LP.

For the short program, the judges' discretionary scores were

Asada 32.60
Kostner 31.66
Nakano 30.70
Kim 30.35

Total, SP + LP:

Asada 98.66
Kim 95.22
Nakano 93.35
Kostner 87.78

 

[Mathman]

Actually (sorry for the double post), here's a better way to do it.

The first two program components, skating skills and transitions, count on the tech side, along with the grades of execution on technical elements. The last three components, performance/execution, choreography/composition, amd interpretation, together are like the old second mark.

Adding the GOEs + SS + TR for the "judges tech score," and additing P/E + CH + INT (without factoring) gives the following outcome for the judges' contribution, leaving out the part that is under the purview of the technical specialist (LP only).

Judges' Technical Mark + Judges' Performance Mark = Judges' Total

Asada: 20.53 + 22.72 = 43.25
Kim: 20.82 + 22.30 = 43.12
Nakano: 18.06 + 22.36 = 40.42
Rochette: 19.00 + 20.32 = 39.32
Meier: 17.45 + 21.29 = 38.74
Lepisko: 16.25 + 18.04 = 34.29
Kostner: 12.23 + 22.00 = 34.23

 

[ManyCairns]

Actually (sorry for the double post), here's a better way to do it.

Judges' Technical Mark + Judges' Performance Mark = Judges' Total

Asada: 20.53 + 22.72 = 43.25
Kim: 20.82 + 22.30 = 43.12
Yakano: 18.06 + 22.36 = 40.42
Rochette: 19.00 + 20.32 = 39.32
Meier: 17.45 + 21.29 = 38.74
Lepisko: 16.25 + 18.04 = 34.29
Kostner: 12.23 + 22.00 = 34.23

AMAZING. That's a result I could believe in.

 

[Skye]

Lessons learnt from Worlds ladies.
Skate as well as you can in the short and stay in the final group for the free skate. Rotate every single triple you attempt whether you fall, double-foot, put one or both hands down, then CoP is on your side.

This just goes to show what is wrong with the current judging system. Not only is the technical panel too powerful, but the judges are not using the PCS properly as well. Kostner should have never received such high performance marks. Her 22.00 compared to Kim's 22.30 or Meier's 21.29 has got to be a joke. Same for Korpi who wuzgifted with 18.96 (calculated using Mathman's method) in spite of her meltdown in the final flight whereas Lepisto gets a measly 18.04 for a near-perfect program just because she skated earlier.

 

[kikakiks]

I think this instead shows that all of the people who said the judges gifted kostner they are completely wrong.if it had been for them, they would have out her off the podium...

Believe it or not, she is not the beneficiary of any conspiracy theory....
This was a very informative thread, thanks Mathman

One last thing:
Everyone think that the only or main determinant in pcs is PERFORMANCE, and with that they compare podium performances. obviously a good perfromance enhances your pcs, but it is not the only determinant. That is why some people think THAT SOME PCS ARE A JOKE!
It is clear that skating skill, and choreography, and interpretation have their own grade too, but everyone seems to forget....

 

[Eevun]

Very interesting thread indeed. But at least this judging system is better than the old one in the long run and maybe it can be even better. I think the judges are learning to use the system better and better. Some critics was why do they never use 9.0-10.0 in PCS, but e.g, Takahashi recived three 9.00 for his FS in 4CC. The skaters need something to grow in, they should have something to reach, you can always do better. At the end of the old system, I thought that it was inflation of the 6.0. Yagudin receved only 6.0 when he won the Olympic gold, that meant he couldn't be better in theory and today he woudn't have a chance to win compare to the top skaters we have. (I don't defend the new system, I know too little about it to make a fare judge, just telling my point of view.)
But a judging competition will never be 100% fair.

 

[dorispulaski]

Mathman, One thing that makes perfectly clear is that either the judges hated Kimmie, Bebe and Ashley or you didn't go down the list far enough for us to see. So which is it?

Another thing--the judges probably liked Daisuke even more than that since he got no GOE for the last combination. He still had only 14 elements listed, like all the other skaters, so it wasn't per se, an 'extra element', and the GOE was automatically set to 0.

Very interesting way of looking at the scores.

 

[Mathman]

Mathman, One thing that makes perfectly clear is that either the judges hated Kimmie, Bebe and Ashley or you didn't go down the list far enough for us to see. So which is it?

I only did the top seven. But...here are the next nine.

Sebestyen: 13.96 + 18.25 = 32.24
Dyrt: 13.96 +17.28 = 31.24
Meissner: 10.25 + 18.46 = 28.74
Liang: 10.14 + 17.29 = 27.43
Korpi: 7.22 + 18.96 = 26.18
Glebova: 9.49 + 15.43 = 24.92
Leung: 8.54 + 16.14 = 24.68
Marchei: 6.84 + 16.47 = 23.31
Wagner: 5.38 + 17.89 = 23.27

Another thing--the judges probably liked Daisuke even more than that since he got no GOE for the last combination. He still had only 14 elements listed, like all the other skaters, so it wasn't per se, an 'extra element', and the GOE was automatically set to 0.

True, and there are a few other things that throw the results off, like mandatory GOEs for specific violations. Also, I think it would be a better measure to double the GOEs before combining with the PCSs, since it is very rare for the total GOEs to add up to a number comparable to a single PCS (several skaters got negative GOEs overall).

 

[Bennett]

Another thing--the judges probably liked Daisuke even more than that since he got no GOE for the last combination. He still had only 14 elements listed, like all the other skaters, so it wasn't per se, an 'extra element', and the GOE was automatically set to 0.

I agree. Despite being a big fan of him, I think that his scores were inflated perhaps because he was a pre-event favorite in judges' mind.

 

[museksk8r]

Meier and Lepisto need to up their technical difficulty in order to challenge Kostner. Carolina's high technical content/base values and brilliant speed, edges, and complex choreography can save the day for her despite not being clean. Nakano needs to resolve her eternal problem of underrotating jumps. Rochette? I guess she needs to skate sloppier? I don't know, I just don't understand her low PCS marks at all. I guess the judges think she makes skating look too easy. I guess smooth, strong edges and mature posture are not the judges' cup of tea. In all seriousness, I'd like to see Joannie work on her spins and on improving her speed . . . these are areas I believe she could improve upon. Yu-Na pretty much just needs to catch a break from all her injuries and just skate with no mistakes. She has all the ingredients for a World and Olympic Champion and she only missed World gold this year by a little over 2 points. That's very impressive considering she had 2 very costly mistakes on the Lutz jump in both programs, falling in the SP and singling it in the LP. Asada, Kostner, and Kim were so close in the final point totals, it was almost a virtual tie for the World gold. It will be interesting to see the current top 5 in the World go up against Rachael Flatt, Caroline Zhang, and Mirai Nagasu . . . should be a very exciting ride for sure!

 

[Bennett]

Meier and Lepisto need to up their technical difficulty in order to challenge Kostner. Carolina's high technical content/base values and brilliant speed, edges, and complex choreography can save the day for her despite not being clean. Nakano needs to resolve her eternal problem of underrotating jumps. Rochette? I guess she needs to skate sloppier? I don't know, I just don't understand her low PCS marks at all. I guess the judges think she makes skating look too easy. I guess smooth, strong edges and mature posture are not the judges' cup of tea. In all seriousness, I'd like to see Joannie work on her spins and on improving her speed . . . these are areas I believe she could improve upon.

I agree with your point about Rochette's PCS. I especially loved her SP. She had great music that matched so well with her style. I also don't understand Sarah's PCS. She has most beautiful programs skated very artistically.