Who is in the "Western bloc"?

[Mathman]

There definitely could be a quid pro quo there---Shen/Zhao win Pairs, and Irina and/or Plushenko win singles.

We can beat that! Shen and Zhou for gold AND Pang and Tong for bronze, in exchange for Michelle in ladies. Then we’ll give Belgium fifth place for VanderPerren in exchange for silver for Belbin and Agosto.

No wait, Belbin and Agosto can’t go, so we’ll trade our silver in dance to Bulgaria for a bronze for Weir (transferable to Lysacek if Johnny messes up). (There’s not much we can do about Navka and Kostamarov, or about Plushenko if his knees are healthy. Where is Jeff Gilooly when you need him?)

 

[mzheng]

I read an interesting blurb in the NY Times last week discussing the upcoming Olympics, and how Russia and China were going to work together to keep the US from dominating the medal standings. The short article talked about sharing facilities and equipment, but I got an uncomfortable feeling. Because the identities of the figure skating judges are concealed, there is no way to know if the Chinese and Russian judges are working in lock step. There definitely could be a quid pro quo there---Shen/Zhao win Pairs, and Irina and/or Plushenko win singles.

Tell me we're not going to go through this yet again.

In general chinese (mainland china) have no good feeling about their 'big brother' Soviet Union either. They might quite proud of Kwan's chinese heritege.

 

[Ptichka]

I would find this China/ Russia cooperation surprising. Before anyone calls me naive, let me explain. Russian federation cares about pairs far more than it does about man skating, not to mention ladies. Chinese pairs skating is farm more dangerous to Russian sport domination than American or Chinese ladies, or any of the guys out there.

 

[curious]

I read an interesting blurb in the NY Times last week discussing the upcoming Olympics, and how Russia and China were going to work together to keep the US from dominating the medal standings. The short article talked about sharing facilities and equipment, but I got an uncomfortable feeling. Because the identities of the figure skating judges are concealed, there is no way to know if the Chinese and Russian judges are working in lock step. There definitely could be a quid pro quo there---Shen/Zhao win Pairs, and Irina and/or Plushenko win singles.

Tell me we're not going to go through this yet again.

of course you know plushy the best male figure skater for the past four or five years needs help from the judges,same goes for Irina the world champ lol! So the north american media is not trying to create a scandal right? ain't jealousy grand

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The deals are already in the making. We must show the World how powerful we are in Sports!!! Oh, why can't America learn how to play the game?

Wasn't there another stink one year about the outcome of the Dance being finalized in mid July? There has been talk that there is a plan here for this year. Too bad, for both D&Ss.

TT said it will be easier to cheat with the new system. I have to agree. Something tells me there will be a resurection of the WFS after the Olys. Judges will be drawn by region and there names and nationalities will be known.

Joe

 

[curious]

The deals are already in the making. We must show the World how powerful we are in Sports!!! Oh, why can't America learn how to play the game?

Wasn't there another stink one year about the outcome of the Dance being finalized in mid July? There has been talk that there is a plan here for this year. Too bad, for both D&Ss.

TT said it will be easier to cheat with the new system. I have to agree. Something tells me there will be a resurection of the WFS after the Olys. Judges will be drawn by region and there names and nationalities will be known.

Joe

yes,that includes americans okay? I see some people don't have any problem if tt and other great russians coaches and coreograhers politiks for their faves against the russians. you don't call that cheating?

 

[Mathman]

I agree with Ptichka, and also with Curious. I can't see the Russians sacrificing Totmiana and Marinen (who have a 50-50 chance of gold in pairs) for some extra insurance for Navka and Kostomarov (a shoo-in), or for Plushenko and Slutskaya, both of whom are favored anyway.

I didn't see the article that ChuckM referred to. But if it really quoted Olympic officials as saying that Russia and China plan to "work together to keep America from dominating the medals standings," that's an unfortunate choice of words. I'm sure what they meant was, "Russia and China will work together to insure fair judging in all sports and disciplines."

I agree, Joe, that the aftermath of these games will be interesting. If there is both a Russian sweep of the gold medals AND some sort of judging controversy, the American media will have a field day and the casual fan will say, "Oh, there go those cheatin' Russians again."

Curious, quite true. No one complained when Tatiana Tarasova lobbied for Sasha.

Mathman

 

[Mathman]

Here is an article about the Chinese-Russian Olympic pact.

http://sport.monstersandcritics.com/news/article_1016357.php/Russia_China_forge_Olympic_alliance

In fact, here is a whole page (from Google news) about it.

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&n...+games+Russia+China+alliance&btnG=Search+News

They are talking about the 2008 summer games in Beijing. China, evidently, does not want to be embarassed on it's home turf by finishing behind the U.S. in medal count, so they are enlisting the help of the Russian Olympic Committee.

"China's medal quest is official (governement) policy, with the country's leaders adopting a plan calling for its athletes to win at least 110 medals, 40 of them gold ones."

Woe be to the athletes if they only get 109!

They don't seem to be so concerned about the Winter games next year.

Mathman

 

[hongligl]

I agree with Ptichka, and also with Curious. I can't see the Russians sacrificing Totmiana and Marinen (who have a 50-50 chance of gold in pairs) for some extra insurance for Navka and Kostomarov (a shoo-in), or for Plushenko and Slutskaya, both of whom are favored anyway.

Mathman

ITA.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I don't think they will sacrifice anyone. I never said that. It will not be another LeG collusion. It is not necessary. Russia has the strongest team they ever had. There is no reason for Russia to cheat. My last post should have been read as joshing. I was going along with Mathman's joke of exchanging gold between countries. I resent the use of the word 'sacrifice' as being said or implied by me because I do not think there will be those kind of deals!!!

I have emphatically said throughout my posts that I do not believe there will be another collusion. Over and out. I am talking about the number of judges of russian background who may well be on the panel and because of cultural similarities they will more than likely agree on similar scores. I have consantly stressed cultural ties and not political ties!!! Everyone else seems to be talking politics. I think I am the only one talking culture.

Joe

 

[Eeyora]

I wonder how many hours the judges/federati0ons spend conspiring
. They have to think of how to give marks and what marks to give skaters for every single scenario.

For a while I thought that for these upcoming Olympic games. The judges would be on their best behavior. Only to improve the image of the sport. Now I am not so sure.

 

[Mathman]

Joe, sorry for the misunderstanding. I don't think that anyone said or thought that you made mention of sacrificing anyone. The suggestion of a sacrifice was made by ChuckM (post 19 above, when he specifically raised the possibiltiy that the Russian Federation might make a deal which would allow Shen and Zhou to win over Totmiamina and Marinen, in exchange for China's support for Plushenko and Slutskaya, and that's what I was responding to with my joke post, #21.

What I was agreeing with Ptichka about was her observation that pairs is the most important discipline to the Russian federation, and what I was agreeing with Curious about (and with you, too) is that Russia has a strong team in both men's and ladies, and so doesn't need to be making any deals.

I do, however, disagree with your emphasis on cultural similarities as an explanation for apparent bloc judging. I think it's politics -- simple if not so pure.

I apologize if you took my earlier posts to imply that you had said anything about sacrificing anybody. That was not my intention at all. In fact, now that I actually took the trouble to read the articles about the "Sino-Soviet pact," they are not talking about Turino at all. Rather it is about China wanting to tap into the Russian expertise in training their athletes to win medals in sports like swimming and track and field at the 2008 summer Olympics in Beijing.

Mathman

PS. Eyeora, nobody knows for sure, but I'll bet the jockeying for influence has already begun. Madam Le Goigne said, in connection with her compromised judging at Salt Lake City, that the lobbying (mostly by Canada on behalf of Sale and Pelletier) started way back in the fall, as soon as the judges pool was selected. All the pressures coming at her from all directions were too much for her to cope with, according to her later statements during the investigation.

 

[hockeyfan228]

PS. Eyeora, nobody knows for sure, but I'll bet the jockeying for influence has already begun. Madam Le Goigne said, in connection with her compromised judging at Salt Lake City, that the lobbying (mostly by Canada on behalf of Sale and Pelletier) started way back in the fall, as soon as the judges pool was selected. All the pressures coming at her from all directions were too much for her to cope with, according to her later statements during the investigation.

According to Lavoie -- in writing to the ISU, for which he was reprimanded -- and a Swiss judge who was there at the time, during one of the 2001 fall competitions, LeGogne told them that, of course she was going to vote with Sanaia, who was her friend, but he was so nice, what was she to do? Blech.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Thanks Mathman. Yes, deals will kill the sport altogether. but I still think cultural preferences play a big part in judging sports and being fans of judging sports. I'm all for Regional Selection of judges.

As to that old SLC debacle with 100 per cent of the blame on LeG and none on the party with whom the deal was made. You figure.

Joe

 

[emma]

Joe...it got the joke too...I don't see culture as devoid of, or separate from, culture, so perhaps we are talking at cross purposes. But in terms of how I understand the way you are using culture...I just don't know anything worthy of a comment, hence why I haven't responded to that part of your discussion (i.e., the judges names, where they were born, raised, the languages they speak, how they were trained, what cultural traditions they consciously feel a part of, what aesthetic traditions if they see that as different, how they are selected for a particular season or event etc.).

Now...it's not that I know anything about the politics here...i've just been musing a bit about the possible connections between ISU voting (and alliances built around that) and judging as a means to cement the same...explcit deals are likely but one part of the practice, imo (another possibility is seeing the way you come to think your hopeful allies see, not in a malicious or corrupt way necessarily). But, although I haven't said it so far, it's in this light that I can understand (not agree with) Speedy's annoymous judging....but it, to me, smacks of the proverbial band-aid solution...doesn't address the cause of the bleed (and I speculated earlier that one cause MIGHT be relative strengths of the different federations...but I have no idea if that is part of this from some sound emprical basis). anyway...enough speculating. I'll repeat, I got your joke and thought it was funny!

 

[attyfan]

After SLC, wasn't there an indictiment issued against someone reputed to be a bigwig in the Russian mafia, who supposedly arranged the "Russian gets pairs, France gets dance" deal -- to please the French? I know there was no trial because Italy refused to extradite the guy, but I haven't heard anything to show that the alleged "collusion" was only within the federations/ISU. If organized crime is involved, I can think of a lot of reasons why judges and the ISU will give them the results they want. (I still want to know if a certain on-line casino made or lost money on bets on Worlds '04, and if any such considerations dictated the 'publicity stunt')

 

[gkelly]

In the 1994 Olympics the Baiul judges were

Jan Olesinski, Poland
Jarmila Portova, Czechoslavakia
Alfred Korytek, Ukraine
Jiasheng Yang, China

The Kerrigan judges were

Margaret Ann Wier, USA
Noriko Shirota, Japan
Wendy Utley, Great Britain
Audrey Williams, Canada

The swing vote was Jan Hoffmann of (formerly East) Germany.

Um, why do you call Hoffmann the "swing vote" and not Yang?

Politically, culturally, and geographically, (East) Germany had more in common with Poland and Czechoslovakia than China did.

And China also had a competitor in that event who could with some, perhaps "creative," justification have been placed ahead of Baiul and/or Kerrigan.

So if any of these judges deserves to be called a swing judge, I'd say it was Yang.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

After SLC, wasn't there an indictiment issued against someone reputed to be a bigwig in the Russian mafia, who supposedly arranged the "Russian gets pairs, France gets dance" deal -- to please the French? I know there was no trial because Italy refused to extradite the guy, but I haven't heard anything to show that the alleged "collusion" was only within the federations/ISU. If organized crime is involved, I can think of a lot of reasons why judges and the ISU will give them the results they want. (I still want to know if a certain on-line casino made or lost money on bets on Worlds '04, and if any such considerations dictated the 'publicity stunt')

Godfather's do not do anything for nothing. They are paid to do the job. Organized crime got paid to collude with LeG? Isn't that the same thing as if a Federation coluded with LeG? Who else would pay the Godfathers? If this is the scenario then I would think that the collusion was between two federations with organized crime as a tool.

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Um, why do you call Hoffmann the "swing vote" and not Yang?

Politically, culturally, and geographically, (East) Germany had more in common with Poland and Czechoslovakia than China did.

And China also had a competitor in that event who could with some, perhaps "creative," justification have been placed ahead of Baiul and/or Kerrigan.

So if any of these judges deserves to be called a swing judge, I'd say it was Yang.

Interesting point,gkelly.

 

[princesse]

Hoffman as the Swing

Hoffman is generally considered the swing vote in the Lillehammer decision, because his point total for Oksana and Nancy was the same (I don't recall at the moment what exactly those scores were, but it was something like 5.7/5.9 for Oksana and 5.8/5.8 for Nancy). His ordinal went to Oksana because of the artistic tie-breaker rule. The others, as I recall, favored one or the other more clearly, and so Hoffman is considered the swing.

That's also why people will say that Nancy lost by 0.1 of a point.