Yu-Na Kim's jumps discussion (merged threads)

[Blades of Passion]

Both Yu-Na and Mao do their Flip correctly. They have very good Flip jumps, in fact.

look at Mao Asada's flip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bsp81rzUk98

after turn, she changes to OUTSIDE edge, and THAN changes to inside edge before the jump. This creates bent curve, which is not supposed to happen during flip.

It. Doesn't. Matter.

There is no single exact way to execute any jump. She is clearly on an acceptable edge on the takeoff.

 

[HCOSurfer]

I'm really sorry that I'm contributing to this thread, but those pictures are not from the take off of her flip. On the contrary, this is:

I know it's a little hard to see because of the ice coming up from her takeoff, but her blade is on an outside edge. Here's another, clearer, picture from her takeoff:

Now you can tell she is in fact on a slight outside edge. The "e" call may have been a little harsh. It would have been better if she received an "!" call instead. That's all I'm contributing to this thread.

 

[so_proud]

Yuna and Jeff

Check with the link that shows Jeff's and Yuna's flips.

http://gall.dcinside.com/list.php?id=yeona&no=214633&page=5

 

[ChrisH]

Yes, Yu-Na is currently a lip jumper. This year, she has lipped 3 out of 3 times. Last year, she lipped at least twice. If I recall the events correctly, she lipped in the GPF SP and the World Championships SP.

She should have gotten a "!" on both of her 3Fs at Skate America. If, as another poster has stated, her outside edge was even deeper and longer in the CoC SP than in the SA LP, then the "e" call made by the technical panel is IMO correct.

There may be three changes between this year and last year which have resulted in Yu-Na's lip being called:
* the "attention" call, symbolized by a "!", has been added to the rules. So the technical panel is calling non-obvious wrong edge takeoffs this year whereas last year only obvious ones were called. Yu-Na's lips last year weren't obvious.
* Yu-Na's wrong edge is greater this year. Perhaps that's a consequence of her plan to peak later in the season and/or because she is more willing to risk an edge call so that her 3F+3T combo is more consistent. Recall that she missed that combo a few times last year but this year she has been 3 for 3 on it, despite having less height and rotation.
* wrong edge calls this year may perhaps be reviewed in slow motion whereas reviews were perhaps required to be at regular speed last year.

The Yu-Na vs. Mao wrong edge debate may be a wash as I believe that:
* lippers should get -1 GOE on lips and modest GOE on lutzes because they aren't true lutzes.
* flutzers should get -2 GOE on flutzes and good GOE on flips because they are true flips.
That's for the "e" call. Of course the GOE penalty should be less for the "!" call.

 

[HCOSurfer]

Check with the link that shows Jeff's and Yuna's flips.

http://gall.dcinside.com/list.php?id=yeona&no=214633&page=5

Jeff has received edge calls too, so I don't think there's a point to compare their flips.

 

[so_proud]

I'm really sorry that I'm contributing to this thread, but those pictures are not from the take off of her flip. On the contrary, this is:

I know it's a little hard to see because of the ice coming up from her takeoff, but her blade is on an outside edge. Here's another, clearer, picture from her takeoff:

Now you can tell she is in fact on a slight outside edge. The "e" call may have been a little harsh. It would have been better if she received an "!" call instead. That's all I'm contributing to this thread.

Looking at the picture, "!" mark would be harsh, too. Think of the range from "Slight" outside edge, to flat, and to "Slight" inside edge of a flip jump. Slight + slight = still slight. BTW, does it look like an outside edge?

For lutz (or flutz), however, there would be distictive ranges of the edge that can be categorized into "!" and "e".

 

[so_proud]

Jeff has received edge calls too, so I don't think there's a point to compare their flips.

Just once, as I know.
Depending on skaters' condition, it can happen once or twice if the skater was shaky on that day. Jeff is not a lipper, though. You may know jumping is a habbit, right?

 

[HCOSurfer]

Looking at the picture, "!" mark would be harsh, too. Think of the range from "Slight" outside edge, to flat, and to "Slight" inside edge of a flip jump. Slight + slight = still slight. BTW, does it look like an outside edge?

For lutz (or flutz), however, there would be distictive ranges of the edge that can be categorized into "!" and "e".

How would an "!" mark be too harsh? She took off of an outside edge, therefore she deserved either an "e" mark or an "!" mark, and yes, that does look like an outside edge.

 

[ChrisH]

Actually Hedwig over at FSU and maybe here too said that according to the rules the judges look at the position of the body before they start the jump, and the position of the body when they land the jump to decide if the jump is underrotated. So it's , it's the position of her BODY that they are looking for.

I hope that's true. It should be the body, but I suspect that they focus more on the blade. The only rule I've seen is on page 49 of the ISU First Aid for Technical Controllers/Specialists - Singles.
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/First Aid Singles 2008-09.pdf

The Eurosport people felt that Yu-na was all the way around (just barely) on the lutz, but who knows.

Perhaps the technical panel considered that Yu-Na was close to being downgraded on her 3F and 3T, so they didn't give her the benefit of the doubt on the 3Lz. I do agree with those who claim that Yu-Na's 3Lz may have had more total rotations in the air than the other jumps that weren't downgraded, but the rule is the 3/4 mark at the landing, not total rotations.

 

[so_proud]

How would an "!" mark be too harsh? She took off of an outside edge, therefore she deserved either an "e" mark or an "!" mark, and yes, that does look like an outside edge.

My point is not whether it looks outside or flat or inside to particular persons. Even looking at the close-up pictures, we have all different opinions. Some one see it as flat (myself), some one see it as slight outside edge (you), etc. How different would it be between flat and "slightly slight" outside? Thinking of the mechanism of the flip jump and the range of edge that can vary from slight outside to slight inside, "!" mark, particularly for the range in the picture, could be harsh.

 

[bekalc]

The Technical Specialist will identify any
jump that is cheated by more than one
quarter turn on the landing as the jump of
the lower value. For example, a triple
Lutz that rotates 2.5 turns by the foot
placement and 2.75 turns of the upper
body will be called as a triple attempt and
then downgraded.

It sounds like, the foot can be 2.5 but the body must be 2.75...

 

[mskater93]

I hope that's true. It should be the body, but I suspect that they focus more on the blade. The only rule I've seen is on page 49 of the ISU First Aid for Technical Controllers/Specialists - Singles.
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/First Aid Singles 2008-09.pdf



Perhaps the technical panel considered that Yu-Na was close to being downgraded on her 3F and 3T, so they didn't give her the benefit of the doubt on the 3Lz. I do agree with those who claim that Yu-Na's 3Lz may have had more total rotations in the air than the other jumps that weren't downgraded, but the rule is the 3/4 mark at the landing, not total rotations.

I suspect that the tech panel saw the free foot touch down more than 1/4 short which would be an UR like Johnny's quad at Worlds.

 

[bekalc]

Yep that could be totally true about Johnny.... It makes sense that they mean the body 1/4) and not the landing blade, because when you land backwards the landing blade will be in front of the body...But if the blade is 2.5 well than you were totally not 1/4 of rotation

 

[Blades of Passion]

The Technical Specialist will identify any
jump that is cheated by more than one
quarter turn on the landing as the jump of
the lower value. For example, a triple
Lutz that rotates 2.5 turns by the foot
placement and 2.75 turns of the upper
body will be called as a triple attempt and
then downgraded.

It sounds like, the foot can be 2.5 but the body must be 2.75...

No, that quote means exactly the opposite.

The rules are written poorly, of course. The above statement would have you believe that rotation should be counted wherever the beginning of the takeoff to a jump has supposedly started and NOT where the jump has actually left the ice.

That's a foolish notion since takeoffs vary quite a lot. If a skater turns 3/4 of a rotation on the ice during their takeoff, that is much different from a skater who turns only 1/4 of a rotation during their takeoff.

 

[chamisul]

At least I don't go on forever looking for pictures, photoshoping them, editing videos, and finding every other detail that I can because my favourite skater of the motherland got an edge call in ONE competition, while many others have all been suspicious of the questionable edge for a while, and I NEED to prove them ALL WRONG.

Well, I'm not going to talk about certain nationalities like you, but...
Some people edit video, edit photos (i mean, actually EDIT pictures with photoshop) just to make Yuna's flip to a lip.

and you know what? I DIDN'T WANT TO DO THIS.
If THEY accepted the fact that yuna is a textbook jumper, and stopped uploading tons of videos on youtube, I would've never done this. (the fact is, i didn't start looking for photos of yuna and blah blah until the 'e' on COC)

It's just my opinion, but...

WHO IS STUBBORN, REALLY?

I'm just trying to tell the truth, and make things clear here. lol
oh by the way, everybody in this world has some stubbornness in their heart.
isn't that true? nobody can't be all that generous~ tolerating~ etc.
(oh wait a sec... we were being generous when they were uploading those videos and arguing things, looking for photos for ever.)

 

[HCOSurfer]

It's just my opinion, but...

WHO IS STUBBORN, REALLY?

You are.

 

[chamisul]

Looking at the picture, "!" mark would be harsh, too. Think of the range from "Slight" outside edge, to flat, and to "Slight" inside edge of a flip jump. Slight + slight = still slight. BTW, does it look like an outside edge?

For lutz (or flutz), however, there would be distictive ranges of the edge that can be categorized into "!" and "e".

i agree to some of your points!
Yuna definitely is not a lip jumper. Jumping is a habit, and sometimes the deepness of edges depends on the skater's condition (especially when the skater's blade is almost flat).
But her curves showed that she could not have been skating with outside edge. She could have pushed her foot outwards after the toe-pick, which happens to all the skaters, but that does not meant that she was skating with outside edge during her flip jump, right?
I thought a possible "!" could happen, but that would be harsh also! BUT an 'e'??? what is that?
you give an 'e' when there's a obvious deepness in the edges. Especially for flips, which are supposed to be using 'almost flat inside edge', you can't just give an 'e' because her ankle was towards outside when she toe-picked. (Oh by the way, Yuna's ankle is naturally bent towards outside)

 

[chamisul]

You are.

whatever lol

 

[chamisul]

Both Yu-Na and Mao do their Flip correctly. They have very good Flip jumps, in fact.



It. Doesn't. Matter.

There is no single exact way to execute any jump. She is clearly on an acceptable edge on the takeoff.

I didn't say it matters. AND I SAID SHE IS ACCEPTABLE ON THE EDGES.
I really didn't want to bring mao into this, but i had no choice because all i wanted to say was yuna's way to jump flip is even more close to the rule compared to hers.
yes, mao's jump is a flip, with the edges deep inside.

 

[chamisul]

You are.

oh right, and i didn't ask that question actually wanting for an answer lol