The problem is with the scoring system. Do we really need 14+ GOE points to tell us that Yu Na was the winner?
Yuna Kim - 2013 version
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The problem is with the scoring system. Do we really need 14+ GOE points to tell us that Yu Na was the winner?
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- Jun 21, 2003
I don't have a problem with the GOEs in this contest. Yu-na got killer total GOEs because every single one of her elements was high quality. When you get all positives and no negatives, that starts to add up.
Kim got an average of 1.38 on her 12 elements. Asada got an average of 1,01 on the 8 elements that she got positive GOEs for. But she had four elements with negative GOEs, which cancelled a good deal of that.
Kostner averaged 1.10 on the ten elements where she earned positive GOEs, but she lost ground on her 1Lo and on her 3S<< (fall).
Kim showed both excellence and consistency throughout the program. That adds up.
Kim got an average of 1.38 on her 12 elements. Asada got an average of 1,01 on the 8 elements that she got positive GOEs for. But she had four elements with negative GOEs, which cancelled a good deal of that.
Kostner averaged 1.10 on the ten elements where she earned positive GOEs, but she lost ground on her 1Lo and on her 3S<< (fall).
Kim showed both excellence and consistency throughout the program. That adds up.
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- Joined
- Mar 11, 2011
That is one of main reasons why ISU reduced GOE factoring down to 70%.
And if you look at Carolina's protocols, she got as much GOE as Yuna. What this is telling is that Carolina and Yuna are just so darn good at their technical execution. Why shouldn't they be rewarded for that? Only reason Carolina's behind Yuna by 17 points is that she made mistakes. Had she not popped 3 loop and fallen at 3 sal, she would have easily garnered 11-12 points more including positive GOEs. Moreover, if Yuna's track record on GOE indicates anything, it is that quality takes priority over quantity which I think is a very positive input for the sport's sake as many youngsters are following as their goal in training i.e. Gracie, Kaetlyn, Liza and many more to come.
Problem doesn't lie in the system nor in skaters. IMO, It's because there are top skaters who would have placed higher than Yuna or Carolina if the system didn't reward the quality, hence, to the eyes of majority, it seems as if the system is being too harsh on the top skaters with somewhat less technical quality. But you should know that the system has worked on that issue with the GOE rule and much benefited those skaters.
For example, with the current GOE factoring, wrong edge take-offs take little hit as to the point that you're practically gaining 3flip's or 3loop's points with flutz and lip, at the same time not hindered by Zayak rule. Also, judges have been giving out +2, +3 at their will(well, to deserved executions), and that has led skaters whose strengths lie in non-jumping element to get more credit for their quality. I believed and have believed that skaters shouldn't be too scrutinized for their flawed technique, that's why I think 70% factoring is just about right for both rewards and deductions.
People complained about quads/3A not being rewarded enough so ISU revised that. People complained about GOEs being valued too much so ISU tended to that matter.
But there're still people who vocalize that those hard jumps are not rewarded enough. There're still people who are not happy with the way GOEs are rewarded to the perfectly great elements.
When will this end?
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2010
One of the things that could explain the GOE is that it seems like Yuna's jumps have never looked better. Just look at her jumps in Vancouver vs. 2013 Worlds and to me they looked more refined, even her 3Lutz+3Toe. She landed them all with greater sureness and flow. Personally, I've never seen her jump so securely (landing on such sure smooth edges) in the past as I've seen at this year's Worlds.
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2011
ITA. Yuna was that good with perfection but others couldn't just do that. One should really think about how Mao and Carolina would have scored if they went clean not when they made several, very visible mistakes.
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2011
:thumbsup: Thank you for the reports!
- Joined
- May 18, 2009
Agreed.
Also, scores are never just about deciding a winner. Poundings happen regardless of the sport being played. This isn't a little league game where team A is leading the game 10-2 against team B, and the game is ended after the sixth inning in order to spare the feelings of team B's players (and more likely, the parents). Sometimes the winners win by a very wide margin. Sometimes they don't.
http://www.nba.com/games/20130318/BKNDET/gameinfo.html?ls=iref:nbahpgt[0021200997] ...ouch?
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2013_03_19_tbamlb_detmlb_1&mode=box ....another ouch?
for a more dramatic example....
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/bears-beat-redskins-73-0-in-nfl-championship-game
lol
A jump is either good or it isn't. A ranking system would take care of whose jumps are better, assuming all are completed. Yu Na's jumps are very good--I think she is the second best ladies jumper in the history of the sport, after Midori Ito--but overall, she is not as superior to the other top ladies as her scores would reflect. She doesn't do a 3-loop and she garners points--including GOEs--for things like 2A-2T-2T, that would have been viewed as too easy to substitute for a triple under the old system. I have no doubt that she would still do very well under a system that didn't give bonus points and she might even be challenged to do 7 triples instead of 6.
For this free skate program? As a whole package? Sure, I think her free skate was definitely superior overall. Isn't it what it's supposed to measure? This particular program? GoE reflects how her components were carried out for this free skate, and she killed every single element. It's not as if she was better at every element compared to other top skaters -- Mao had higher GoEs for things like step sequence, and so did Carolina, and at least one of Carolina's jumps got a GoE as high as Yuna's. Yuna got her GoEs built up, sure, because she skated clean and delivered a high level quality program, but the top skaters an their GoEs on average are close. As others already said, clean and completeness of the program do add up, and only if Carolina or Mao did clean programs, theirs would be on a similar level as Yuna's because they would have been rewarded for their efforts, and then we would've seen more of an even reflection of their levels. They didn't. Kim did.
So, to compensate for that, we lower GoE again? I'm not sure how that helps the situation. Kim does have an edge because she tends to create jump sequences (Ina Bauer for instance) with higher degrees of difficulty, and she carries them out beautifully because she obviously wants higher GOEs. Why would anyone bother to make a jump more difficult if you wouldn't be awarded for quality? Why would they want to try to go for a beautifully clean program with difficult elements, then? Lowering GOEs even more? That would probably get every female skater to scamp around to learn 3A, because that's the only jump left whose reward is high enough and by that point the quality of the other elements wouldn't end up mattering as much. And in that case, I don't see anyone other than Asada doing better programs than they are right now, and that's worse than Yuna getting high scores than anyone else when she goes clean. I would rather see everyone else trying to clean programs than vice versa.
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2009
I do think jump GOE's should be lowered and a "full complement of triples" bonus added to skaters who attempt and land all standard triples (or quads.) But, this has been discussed elsewhere and I don't know if this is the best thread for a revival of the topic.
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- Oct 23, 2011
I need a backlit keyboard....can't see. Anyway, I knew she'd win, she did and I'll put money should I find betters on Sochi. I never expected two clean programs, and I thought the podium would be closer. But she is 21 points ahead. This was a mini Olympics. I hope we at least get Wilson's best work next year, maybe Buttle should help.
Yuna was too cool. She was a bit nervous in 2010. This 2013 Yuna? She knows she can have it.
I agree GOE should be lowered and I like the full triple bonus idea-always have. Sounds great.
Yuna was too cool. She was a bit nervous in 2010. This 2013 Yuna? She knows she can have it.
I agree GOE should be lowered and I like the full triple bonus idea-always have. Sounds great.
Superior, yes, just not 20 points superior. She also didn't deserve any 10s in her PCS, in my opinion. She is very, very good--I'm not disputing that. But it is her jumps that set her apart. Anyone can see that without GOEs.
I still don't see how that's relevant - because how would she be rewarded with her jumps, then? For my money, I would like to see her and Carolina and their beautifully executed jumps with those lines and breathtaking speed at every opportunity, if possible. But yes, this may not be the best place to discuss it.
I like the full triple bonus idea, too. It would certainly make things even more interesting.
And I definitely like this version of Kim a lot better than the one we saw in 2011, who clearly didn't seem sure whether she wanted to skate. She's a great skater, but it was painful to watch. This time was surely different. Welcome back, Yuna!
And that's your opinion. Which you've repeatedly stated. And yet, that does not change the fact that apparently, the judges disagreed with you, as did the spectators who gave her a standing ovation before the skate was over. I'm sorry but believe it or not, not everyone in the world perceives Kim Yu-na's skating the same as you.
I'd just like to emphasize Mathman's point. If you really have issues, there are protocols. That you can break down. And calculate. Maybe you disagree w/her PC's but hey, those are objective and judges' opinions may or may not concur with yours. I'd say the judges and spectators' feelings (standing O before end of program) coincided in this case. As for TES, like Mathman said, it wasn't just the quality but the fact she went clean.
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
She definitely deserved +GOE on all of her elements, but the amount was too much. Her 3Sal jumps are +1 GOE worthy, not any more than that. Her 2Axel+2Toe+2Loop was +1 worthy. Her spins could even really just get +1 GOE and that would be fair. Those elements got a whole heaping amount of +2 GOE's, and some +3's too (no way did that Choreography Step Sequence or last 2Axel deserve +3 either). That's uncalled for.
I quite liked this 3s. I usually don't like salchows, as it's not my favourite position in the take off. This one immediately got me thinking "I don't hate this".
Part of her high GOEs is due to how she easily blends them as part of the 'dance'. I noticed the latter two jumps in three-jump combos are harder to do so than 3-3, and Yuna delivers that - I currently don't see others doing so. Just finishing smooth and clean can get +1 (and some +2), and I believe she deserves +2 (and some +3) this time - since I've seen her better, and this isn't her best three-jump combo (mostly +3). She also does them at a suicidal speed, too.
I'm kinda on fence about other elements, but I felt that the steps was one of those where it's ok to execute but can get ugly if you tried to put some beauty in it; of course, this is purely an unprofessional opinion. However, seeing how others were marked, I don't think the overall result was more than she deserved.
Isn't that a press conference at the airport?
- Joined
- May 11, 2010
here is an even more amazing photo: http://nimg.nate.com/orgImg/tv/2013/03/20/1363765969_484593.jpg
Yes, Yuna is in there.
Yes, Yuna is in there.
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