2015 Four Continents Men's Short Program Feb 12 Seoul Time

[KwanIsALegend]

Well, the great thing about 4CC is that it sort of gives the skaters a practice run before Worlds in an international setting. The skaters can take from this and improve before worlds.
I believe Adam will move up in the LP. But overall I'm thinking Adam is just not a competitor, which isn't the end of the world. I think Adam would do well as a choreographer.
But then he does seem to have a fire in him. We'll see how well he moves up and what he can do at worlds.

I wasn't sold by Jason's skate, but he did a fine job. His first quad attempt and he stayed on his feet. Now he has that under his belt and if he decides to do it at Worlds.

Josh is very seamless, very clean and smooth. Almost Kwan-like as it doesn't appear like he is working hard when he does his jumps. Very light and clean.
I don't like that he has lyrics. They just seem distracting to me.

 

[Wo|flax]

post

This thread is moving too fast for me I just came back to edit 'other skaters' to add 'age'.

He's not running out of time. You (and people like you who have no concept of a "long game" plan) really need to learn that your opinions, while you have the right to give them, aren't adding anything to the discussion. Kori has been a good coach and steward of Jason and obviously Jason trusts her, so I will let them execute the plans they've formed.

Everyone else's opinions (including mine) are pointless.

Edit: Also, if the first few times aren't going to go smoothly (which I agree with) why call for them at the Nationals when he hasn't done it all year, or at Worlds? Why must he conform to your (or anyone else's) timetable? He doesn't and shouldn't.

That's fine, but if it isn't ready in practice, it's not gonna be ready in competition. I know this from experience as a diver. As an athlete, you don't go and do something in competition that isn't being done consistently in practice. We keep forgetting that skating, at it's core, is a sport, and a good athlete is a TRAINED athlete. I really have no problem with him doing it here. The competition is really just a tune-up, and it was good to get it out.

However, I don't think he should be doing it at Worlds, when spots are on the line. You don't do NEW things at big competitions, you do the same things that got you there.

I didn't know people were calling for him to try it first time at Nationals or try at Worlds D:
It's a forum we really have nothing better to do than armchair judge/coach
And Since Mrs P you asked for a philosophical stand point: we do that because it's nice to think we have some sort of control over it. Jason could very well have landed a quad at the beginning of this season, continue landing it 100% for the following seasons, and then land on his but at the Olympics. In that case any kind of strategy discussion is pointless. But we as humans don't like to believe this world is out of our control.

 

[KwanIsALegend]

I just remembered that Ashley isn't at this competition, no wonder Adam had those step outs. I think having Ashley around helps him a lot.
Ashley, call Adam and have a heart to heart before the long!

 

[Sandpiper]

I'd like to offer an alternative to why some fans want Jason to get a quad ASAP--it's not because they don't want him to have a long and fulfilling career. Quite the contrary.

I think they just want Jason to win more stuff. Age and injuries will eventually catch up to an athlete, no matter how careful they are. The window of opportunity for an elite figure skater is very short. The theory goes, if Jason gets the quad sooner, he can win stuff sooner, and by the time he retires he can be multiple-times World Champion.

On the other hand, if he delays the quad and gears everything toward the 2018 Olympics, the best he'll have is one Olympic title and little else. And that's assuming the plan succeeds, because it's difficult to plan things four years in advance--maybe it's smarter to take things season by season, and win what you can now.

Of course several Japanese guys (Machida, Murakami) stabilized their quads fairly late in their careers. But for many fans... a Machida-esque career isn't enough. They want better for Jason. Heck, I wanted better for Machida. I'm still gutted he never won Nationals or Worlds, and if you asked me if I hoped he'd gotten a stable quad earlier, my answer would be a resounding, "YES!"

Just one possible reasoning. Not saying I agree or disagree with it, as it applies to Jason. 4CC proved that the quad just isn't ready... his team isn't delaying it on purpose. But there's nothing wrong about wishing your favourite skater had the quad earlier.

 

[Warwick360]

For me Brandon Kerry was such a surprise specially compared to his Sochi performance. I seriously didn't expect him to throw that quad. :shocked:

On the other hand, I also didn't expect him to have the personality that he has in K&C. One has to wonder how people close to him figure what mood he is in considering he likes to joke a lot and how his expressions change so quickly within the 5 secs that I saw.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

I guess I mention other skaters, because that seems to be a common point brought up in these discussions, i.e. Jason really needs a quad already, look at XYZ skater they are way younger and already had it! And with Josh, a few years ago, everyone made a huge deal about Josh being the one who would end up making the most impact in seniors first because he had the beautiful 3A and a 4T in the works while Jason was struggling with the 3A. And now, that Jason's struggling with the quad, people are making the same predictions again. It's all deja vu in my head.

It's really weird how similar the 3A and 4T scenarios are. You'd think getting his 3A and proving people wrong would earn him the benefit of the doubt - but no, it didn't. His 3A is also still being overly scrutinized because he was "the guy without a 3A" for so long.

And for the comparisons with Josh: there doesn't need to be one or the other. People need to appreciate and love both (because they deserve it). That's why you can have multiple spots at worlds and there's more than one spot on the podium

I was totally thinking of Machida too. Yes I agree with Yuzuru being a complete anomaly. Another example is Daisuke Murakami, who is 24 and just seem to get his quad in shape this season.

And oh yeah, there was this one time that Jason Brown beat a certain skater from Kazakhstan back in 2012 Junior Worlds. What ever became of that guy? I think he turned out okay.

I think you could say that -good quad and all!

 

[Sabrina]

I really liked Brandon Kerry. He was so unlucky to fail with what was supposed to be a arm up (?) Lutz. His program was amazing, very good 3A and a good 4T plus wonderful transitions. I'm looking forward to seeing his LP.

 

[Warwick360]

I really liked Brandon Kerry. He was so unlucky to fail with what was supposed to be a arm up (?) Lutz. His program was amazing, very good 3A and a good 4T plus wonderful transitions. I'm looking forward to seeing his LP.

That's what I noticed too. Unless it was just an angled fall, I really felt it would have been better if he hadn't gone for what looks like an attempted tano lutz. hwell:

But overall this was the most pleasantly predictable competition this year. As for Denis Ten's Triple axle. I certainly didn't expect to see an axel that size when I saw it.

 

[Wo|flax]

I'd like to offer an alternative to why some fans want Jason to get a quad ASAP--it's not because they don't want him to have a long and fulfilling career. Quite the contrary.

I think they just want Jason to win more stuff. Age and injuries will eventually catch up to an athlete, no matter how careful they are. The window of opportunity for an elite figure skater is very short. The theory goes, if Jason gets the quad sooner, he can win stuff sooner, and by the time he retires he can be multiple-times World Champion.

On the other hand, if he delays the quad and gears everything toward the 2018 Olympics, the best he'll have is one Olympic title and little else. And that's assuming the plan succeeds, because it's difficult to plan things four years in advance--maybe it's smarter to take things season by season, and win what you can now.

Of course several Japanese guys (Machida, Murakami) stabilized their quads fairly late in their careers. But for many fans... a Machida-esque career isn't enough. They want better for Jason. Heck, I wanted better for Machida. I'm still gutted he never won Nationals or Worlds, and if you asked me if I hoped he'd gotten a stable quad earlier, my answer would be a resounding, "YES!"

Just one possible reasoning. Not saying I agree or disagree with it, as it applies to Jason. 4CC proved that the quad just isn't ready... his team isn't delaying it on purpose. But there's nothing wrong about wishing your favourite skater had the quad earlier.

Yeah; that's probably part of it too :
Though I don't think it means Jason's quad isn't ready (for a given value of ready; once again, not saying he should try it at Worlds or anything). I think it just means that this was the first time he tried it in competition. Which is why I replied to zschultz1986 post in the first place, I thought it implied the expectation that his quad would go well in competition next season or the season after just because it was 100% in practice. I may have jumped to conclusions a bit, sorry, since you agreed it wouldn't be zschultz1986.

 

[Wo|flax]

That's what I noticed too. Unless it was just an angled fall, I really felt it would have been better if he hadn't gone for what looks like an attempted tano lutz. hwell:

I didn't realize he was going for Tano. To me it looked like his blade caught on the ice.

 

[Warwick360]

I didn't realize he was going for Tano. To me it looked like his blade caught on the ice.

Not sure if he was myself either. Just making that presumption because it looked like he had his arm aloft before it all went pear shaped.

 

[Scovies]

You (and people like you who have no concept of a "long game" plan) really need to learn that your opinions, while you have the right to give them, aren't adding anything to the discussion.

That's really condescending. And a bit surprising, considering you said this later in the thread:

I really have no problem with him doing it here. The competition is really just a tune-up, and it was good to get it out.

However, I don't think he should be doing it at Worlds, when spots are on the line.

Others' opinions don't add anything to the discussion, but you certainly have no problem adding yours!

Prior to 4CC, I and a few other people suggested that if Jason was thinking about adding the quad to worlds (which he'd already publicly mentioned), that 4CC would be a great time to give it a try. There was a lot of pushback on that, but lo and behold, he tried it! For people with no concept of a "long game," we were surprisingly in-tune with Jason and Kori's plan. I think it was a good decision, and it'll give him a better idea of whether or not he wants to try it in Shanghai. I also strongly defended his choice to NOT do it at Nationals, for the same reason you pointed out:

That's fine, but if it isn't ready in practice, it's not gonna be ready in competition. I know this from experience as a diver. As an athlete, you don't go and do something in competition that isn't being done consistently in practice. We keep forgetting that skating, at it's core, is a sport, and a good athlete is a TRAINED athlete.

I don't think we're forgetting anything; a lot of us are former and current athletes ourselves. Kori obviously thought his quad was good enough in training to add here.

 

[Mrs. P]

And Since Mrs P you asked for a philosophical stand point: we do that because it's nice to think we have some sort of control over it. Jason could very well have landed a quad at the beginning of this season, continue landing it 100% for the following seasons, and then land on his but at the Olympics. In that case any kind of strategy discussion is pointless. But we as humans don't like to believe this world is out of our control.

You are correct no strategy/gamble is guaranteed. Lots of games and competition are lost even with the best plans/intentions. Does that mean the underlying strategy is flawed? Not necessarily.

I'd like to offer an alternative to why some fans want Jason to get a quad ASAP--it's not because they don't want him to have a long and fulfilling career. Quite the contrary.

I think they just want Jason to win more stuff. Age and injuries will eventually catch up to an athlete, no matter how careful they are. The window of opportunity for an elite figure skater is very short. The theory goes, if Jason gets the quad sooner, he can win stuff sooner, and by the time he retires he can be multiple-times World Champion.

On the other hand, if he delays the quad and gears everything toward the 2018 Olympics, the best he'll have is one Olympic title and little else. And that's assuming the plan succeeds, because it's difficult to plan things four years in advance--maybe it's smarter to take things season by season, and win what you can now.

Of course several Japanese guys (Machida, Murakami) stabilized their quads fairly late in their careers. But for many fans... a Machida-esque career isn't enough. They want better for Jason. Heck, I wanted better for Machida. I'm still gutted he never won Nationals or Worlds, and if you asked me if I hoped he'd gotten a stable quad earlier, my answer would be a resounding, "YES!"

Just one possible reasoning. Not saying I agree or disagree with it, as it applies to Jason. 4CC proved that the quad just isn't ready... his team isn't delaying it on purpose. But there's nothing wrong about wishing your favourite skater had the quad earlier.

I totally see your viewpoint, but unfortunately timing can be an annoying thing. I mean you have someone like Kurt Browning who won multiple World titles but never got an Olympic medal. Or, the more well known example, Michelle who managed to win the most world titles in modern days and never getting that OGM.

But I do feel there is a lot of unnecessary vitriol toward Jason and Kori over this strategy too, especially after Nationals. I am sort of skeptical that they hold the view point you just outlined.

It's really weird how similar the 3A and 4T scenarios are. You'd think getting his 3A and proving people wrong would earn him the benefit of the doubt - but no, it didn't. His 3A is also still being overly scrutinized because he was "the guy without a 3A" for so long.

And for the comparisons with Josh: there doesn't need to be one or the other. People need to appreciate and love both (because they deserve it). That's why you can have multiple spots at worlds and there's more than one spot on the podium

You would think, but we have short memories. That why history tends to repeat itself.

And oh, I totally agree. I only mention the Josh comparison because I remember numerous discussions/comparisons being made during their junior international careers. But I certainly don't think that it has to be an either/or proposition. I think it's OK to have a preference toward one or another, it's human nature. I personally have to admit it too me a while to warm up to Josh's skating. That doesn't mean I didn't acknowledge his talent, abilities accomplishments, but just that his more introverted style didn't speak to me for whatever reason.

I think, for me, it was seeing Josh live at U.S. nationals last year. There I could see his qualities and the other things that made him interesting, unique. Seeing the Schindler's List FS footwork is one of my personal highlights of Nationals. So it doesn't bother me that Josh beat Jason today, cause the back-and-forth has been happening since they were like 10. And I feel like it's going to keep on happening. They're both going to be better skaters and competitors for it.

 

[Sabrina]

Anybody knows what does V1 represent in this spin FCSp3V1 (Adam Rippon). It's a combination spin, but V1?

 

[burntBREAD]

Anybody knows what does V1 represent in this spin FCSp3V1 (Adam Rippon). It's a combination spin, but V1?

They were explaining it on one of the US Nationals streams and I don't quite remember0, but it's a deduction.

 

[Wo|flax]

Anybody knows what does V1 represent in this spin FCSp3V1 (Adam Rippon). It's a combination spin, but V1?

V1 means a requirement hasn't been fulfilled.

 

[Sandpiper]

I totally see your viewpoint, but unfortunately timing can be an annoying thing. I mean you have someone like Kurt Browning who won multiple World titles but never got an Olympic medal. Or, the more well known example, Michelle who managed to win the most world titles in modern days and never getting that OGM.

But I do feel there is a lot of unnecessary vitriol toward Jason and Kori over this strategy too, especially after Nationals. I am sort of skeptical that they hold the view point you just outline.

But... who cares if Michelle and Kurt didn't win Olympic gold? They will always be remembered among the all-time greats. I'd much rather have Jason have a career like Michelle or Kurt (or even Irina Slutskaya, if we're to be realistic) rather than being Sarah Hughes and peaking at one Olympics.

And gearing your whole career toward one peak moment doesn't always work out. Machida was in the shape of his life last season; however, he still didn't skate well at the Olympics and didn't make the podium.

I understand what Jason's team is going for. But I also understand why some people feel differently. Carpe diem, as they say.

 

[Sabrina]

Thank you, both BurntBREAD and WoChair!

 

[sabinfire]

Quads are impressive and we've seen some good ones here. But I 'd like to mention that we've seen some heavenly Triple Axels too! And those are my favorite jump.
Han Yan, Joshua Farris, Denis Ten, Misha Ge, well done on your gorgeous 3As.

And to think... you almost held off on watching the Men's SP yesterday!

 

[Li'Kitsu]

You would think, but we have short memories. That why history tends to repeat itself.

And oh, I totally agree. I only mention the Josh comparison because I remember numerous discussions/comparisons being made during their junior international careers. But I certainly don't think that it has to be an either/or proposition. I think it's OK to have a preference toward one or another, it's human nature. I personally have to admit it too me a while to warm up to Josh's skating. That doesn't mean I didn't acknowledge his talent, abilities accomplishments, but just that his more introverted style didn't speak to me for whatever reason.

I think, for me, it was seeing Josh live at U.S. nationals last year. There I could see his qualities and the other things that made him interesting, unique. Seeing the Schindler's List FS footwork is one of my personal highlights of Nationals. So it doesn't bother me that Josh beat Jason today, cause the back-and-forth has been happening since they were like 10. And I feel like it's going to keep on happening. They're both going to be better skaters and competitors for it.

I didn't mean to imply you were thinking like that - I just felt the need to say it
It took me longer to warm up to Josh too. I LOVED Jason from the first time I saw him (back in 2011), but with Josh it's been more like a steady slowly growing thing (that kinda exploded at nats ). Right now I couldn't decide who I like more.
It's also lovely how much these 2 appreciate one another. I know some people would rather have the tough kind of rivalries like Plush and Yagudin, but I love the best buddy relationships a lot more. I'm sure Jason was thrilled for Josh today, just as much as Josh was happy for Jason winning nationals