If Adelina Sotnikova returns

[witcher]

Maybe it's just me but I think figure skating would be well served to see Julia and Adelina battling it out once again.

!!!

 

[gmyers]

if someone put a banner with the hug will look stupid and I hope that person will be throw out of the arena.

It may look stupid but I don't think they'd be thrown out. Javier in jail banners with free javi were around. It was a message banner and was allowed.

You have answered your own question. That is why there was a (successful) protest in 2002 and why there is not and will not be any further investigation or action on the Sochi results.

It's true though bad that pro Yuna people will never get their "day in court". Adelina medal on trial. No chance for closure.

 

[Ophelia]

Given how questionable Lipniskaia and Sotnikovas return to form will be, I don't think they will be battling it out. If anything, it'll be Tukt battling it out against someone.

 

[hurrah]

I find the indignation of both Yuna fans and Adelina fans over this debate funny, cause it actually was Carolina who was robbed that night.

Carolina did seven triples, all with correct technique, no suspect underrotations, compared to Yuna's six triples, all with correct technique, but with one suspect underrotation, and no triple loop, and Adelina's seven triples, but not all with correct technique and with one suspect underrotation. So Carolina won the jump department, and Carolina's skating skills are better than both Yuna's and Adelina's, and she had a great program.

So it was actually Carolina who was robbed of gold, with Yuna silver and Adelina bronze being the rightful placements.

 

[Ophelia]

^Kostner's SP was good, but her LP was even more watered down than Worlds 2013, non? Though I agree she has a case for gold.

 

[samm22]

I find the indignation of both Yuna fans and Adelina fans over this debate funny, cause it actually was Carolina who was robbed that night.

Carolina did seven triples, all with correct technique, no suspect underrotations, compared to Yuna's six triples, all with correct technique, but with one suspect underrotation, and no triple loop, and Adelina's seven triples, but not all with correct technique and with one suspect underrotation. So Carolina won the jump department, and Carolina's skating skills are better than both Yuna's and Adelina's, and she had a great program.

So it was actually Carolina who was robbed of gold, with Yuna silver and Adelina bronze being the rightful placements.

This!!! Yes!!!

 

[Spiral]

In the end, it appears to have been a mistake. Yulia couldn't handle the pressure after she became the Sochi skating sweetheart after the team event. But on the other hand, it's probably better that she didn't win gold in the singles event, if that was the plan.

I think it was not so much the admiration of the public as the relentless onslaught by unprofessional journalists who followed her everywhere, inserted eavesdropping devices in her locker room, interviewed previous neighbors for gossip about her parents and invented interviews with Yulia herself that got to her. Apparently neither her mother nor Tutberidze anticipated this. In hindsight, I think they should have accepted the invitation to spend the intervening 10 days in Novogorsk, and Yulia should have kept away from the Internet (so as not to know what some unscrupulous journalists were concocting about her). But give up the deserved chance to participate in the team event? I don’t think that could have been a good strategy.

I agree with you that it was probably better for her that she didn’t win the gold in the individual event. For one thing, it would have been a huge weight for her to bear into next season when she had troubles enough with puberty issues. For another, I think much of the hatred of those who write insulting messages to Adelina would have been turned to Yulia then, and worse, very likely many fans who admire Yu-na or Carolina wouldn’t have seen Yulia’s victory as legitimate: no matter how well she had skated, they would have said she wasn’t mature enough, or feminine enough, or had equally good skating skills. Given how much Yulia takes to heart what people say about her, I’m afraid it would have been extremely hard for her to bear. IMO in only one way she would have found herself in a better situation than Adelina: the overwhelming majority of her compatriots would have supported her, whereas a sizeable minority of Russian fans apparently think Adelina’s victory questionable. For Adelina there’s also the silver lining of being invited to various events and TV programs, which she admitted to enjoy, while Yulia has no taste for it. And as for winning silver or bronze in Sochi, I think the team gold, given her golden performances there, has done as much for her. Besides, she won the Worlds silver a month later.

In the interview with Tutberidze which I quoted she says right after I stopped (because it wasn’t relevant to the issue in question): “Now when we know the results of our skaters’ performances in Sochi, it is obvious that the federation has done everything absolutely right. We won the team gold. Won two medals in pairs. Bronze in ice dance. Sotnikova became the Olympic champion in ladies. By the way, Adelina herself admitted that not taking part in the team event only angered her and made her focus on the individual event. Otherwise, who knows. Perhaps, the team competition would have exhausted her too, and we wouldn’t have seen the skate of her life.”

Yulia herself said in another interview in reply to a question “Can you say that the Olympics became a good lesson for you?”: “It was not a lesson, but a whole school. Even the failure in the individual event was useful. The performance in Sochi has only given me experience, and this is the most valuable for me. One way or another I’m still an Olympic champion, I have the same medal. I was upset only for a week, and then it was explained to me that it was to the best. Besides, I needed to prepare for Worlds.”

Given how questionable Lipniskaia and Sotnikovas return to form will be, I don't think they will be battling it out. If anything, it'll be Tukt battling it out against someone.

Well, this time last year Tuktamysheva's return to form also looked questionable, so I think it's too early to tell. But I certainly don't expect it to be exclusively between Lipnitskaya and Sotnikova either. I think most likely we'll see a number of ladies in top shape. I certainly hope so.

P.S.
Why were there banners about Fernandez in jail or freeing him?

 

[begin]

I find the indignation of both Yuna fans and Adelina fans over this debate funny, cause it actually was Carolina who was robbed that night.

Carolina did seven triples, all with correct technique, no suspect underrotations, compared to Yuna's six triples, all with correct technique, but with one suspect underrotation, and no triple loop, and Adelina's seven triples, but not all with correct technique and with one suspect underrotation. So Carolina won the jump department, and Carolina's skating skills are better than both Yuna's and Adelina's, and she had a great program.

So it was actually Carolina who was robbed of gold, with Yuna silver and Adelina bronze being the rightful placements.

Err, Caro wasn't perfect. She had a scratchy landing and two-footed two(?) jumps. Also her base value was less than two points higher than Yuna's (which she can easily compensate for by GOEs). And anyway, most people agree both Caro and Yuna could've been gold that night.

Speaking of which, I wonder how Adelina's GOEs will compare to Liza's. As of now, the majority of Adelina's jumps in Sochi outscored Liza's at both the GPF and Worlds. It's more likely Liza will be getting higher GOEs to match than Ade's scores coming down but the judging will be interesting.

 

[Alchamei]

Sochi will always be a part of an Adelina topic. Whether people like it or not; it's a part of her.

:thumbsup: Yes, that's the point here. Let's say she might really become one of he best skaters after her comeback and winning multiple World titles. Nevertheless, there will be always someone who will say she won because the judges like her, that the Russian fed is poweful and mainly, will bring back the opic of Sochi.

I think we all fail to realize Adelina is the victim as well. Sochi will haunt her for he rest of her career and for the majority of people she will be the one who ,,stole'' the Gold medal from the rightful owner. ,,Stole'' is not really the correct word. The judges gave it to her.

 

[solani]

I think we all fail to realize Adelina is the victim as well. Sochi will haunt her for he rest of her career and for the majority of people she will be the one who ,,stole'' the Gold medal from the rightful owner. ,,Stole'' is not really the correct word. The judges gave it to her.

:thumbsup: She will want to prove herself and that's difficult when so many people want to see you fail. But there are people who thrive from somthing like that.

Such efforts will be futile anyway. Yuna announced her retirement immediately after her skates. PyeongChang 2018 is coming up, she is likely to be the public face/ambassador for the Olympics games there. The consequence is bigger than her, bigger than the games. No point sabotage Korean skaters future for her own benefit. Just my opinion.

I also don't think that this 2nd gold matters for Yuna in the long run, but I don't think that a protest would have affected the results of other Korean skaters. I still cannot understand why the South Korean Fed didn't react that night. Is it maybe a cultural thing? They only filed a protest a couple of weeks later when everybody knew that it was too late.
(And hugging judges is no evidence imho, in Ski jumping one of the officials is the father of an athlete and that hasn't caused any problems)
But there's one thing about conspiracy theories: If you don't have substantial evidence that there was a conspiracy after 50 years then it wasn't a conspiracy (because somebody involved is bound to tell the truth, that's why we know that Apollo 11 really landed on the moon). So we only have to wait.

 

[sabinfire]

But there's one thing about conspiracy theories: If you don't have substantial evidence that there was a conspiracy after 50 years then it wasn't a conspiracy (because somebody involved is bound to tell the truth, that's why we know that Apollo 11 really landed on the moon). So we only have to wait.

Some of us may no longer be around in 50 years, so we cannot wait. We must know the answers now before we go to our graves.

 

[OS]

I find the indignation of both Yuna fans and Adelina fans over this debate funny, cause it actually was Carolina who was robbed that night.

Carolina did seven triples, all with correct technique, no suspect underrotations, compared to Yuna's six triples, all with correct technique, but with one suspect underrotation, and no triple loop, and Adelina's seven triples, but not all with correct technique and with one suspect underrotation. So Carolina won the jump department, and Carolina's skating skills are better than both Yuna's and Adelina's, and she had a great program.

So it was actually Carolina who was robbed of gold, with Yuna silver and Adelina bronze being the rightful placements.

Believe it or not, my biggest regret was Mao wasn't able to ace her SP. Imagine her WR 78.66 here plus that spectacular LP is still not enough vs a 3T3T SP + unclean LP with choreographic program of those standard. Push at least one of Carolina/Mao/Clean Yuna at their career bests off the podium. How crazy that would have been. The result was so controversial even the normally polite Japanese media felt the indignation in the green room right away. Russia did the impossible. They brought Japan and Korea together and China looks on amusingly and reported on the news next day.

By the way it is NOT 1 less triple jump, but one less 'rotation', where as Yuna has 1 more double than Carolina. Don't forget Yuna is the only one at these games with 3 x 3 lutz including 2 x 3lz3t combo in her 2 programs, Carol didn't include 3/3 in her LP. It is a silly argument actually, consider Joannie also had 7 triples at Vancouver, Plushy had the quads there vs no quad Evan; Mao had 5 triples at Vancouver and got the Silver vs 8 triples here etc. Kostner's highest ever scored Bolero was 131.01 WC2013, but the choreography had been compromised since then to improve consistency and point scoring since the year before but still got 142.61 here. Bolero should be about layering tensions, nuances, building up to the grand finale. The Sochi version never have the proper pay off since the 3S was removed in place of a spin towards the end (pay off bit), simplified the transitions in the first half to ensure she is able to land those jumps. These should have impacted her PCS score, but it increased by 7+

In anycase Yuna had pretty much the same full on tech content no matter if is B event or World Championships so it is beyond ridiculous people says she diluted her tech. The only difference is inability to include the 2A3T due to post Vancouver rule changes. It is the judging standard that has changed at this particular event for every body. As much as I love Julia and her LP, 135 for that was pretty scandalous.

------------

ISU has wrote enough iron clad clause to protect itself from being challenged. In the absence of evidence it does not mean there's no evidence available however. I still remember getting the giggles from reading these protocals with the string of mysterious 7s in transition Yuna, Carolina, Mao, Gracie got, but not for Adelina and Julia, it really sticks out like sore thumbs. Wonder if they are from the same judge, if so, that judge's mark should have been thrown out together for the whole competition. The whole judging debacle is very easy to prove. ISU can simply release the judges score sheets, and infact that is one of the first thing to do when being accused of cheating/unfairness. The fact they can't and won't and have wrote into the rules that there's little to zero chance to contest secret judging says it all (bare minimum time allowed to contest, and the chances are majority won't challenge in fear of consequences).

Adelina has all the making (+ support) to eventually become a great skater but with a little humility, bravery and self reflect/reality check can go a long way. Artistically she has a long way to go before reaching the mark she had been gifted at Sochi. Taking part in Japan Open is a good start. It is likely the friendliest audience she can hope to receive good support outside Russia.

 

[cooper]

if someone put a banner with the hug will look stupid and I hope that person will be throw out of the arena.

why?? it's a free country. it's not like those people are going inside the ice rink and try to whack someone's leg.

 

[witcher]

why?? it's a free country. it's not like those people are going inside the ice rink and try to whack someone's leg.

 

[solani]

why?? it's a free country. it's not like those people are going inside the ice rink and try to whack someone's leg.

Not necessarily, but there are crazy people around. Even crazy people often have a cause and certain actions can encourage crazy and probably dangerous behaviour. That's why such banners shouldn't be allowed in any arena.

 

[hurrah]

I really feel sorry for Adelina on one level, but then on another level, I don't, because she doesn't need my pity. Whatever negativity might have reached her, I bet she has unshakable belief that she is the rightful winner of the gold medal, and I don't think she loses sleep over the outcome. I bet she feels sorry for us common people who have nothing to do but vacariously live through her.

These elite athletes are not like us common folks. They have invincible mental strength and they can just shake off whatever negativity they get. And, if they can't, well, then they're not elite athletes. That's how it is.

 

[qazwsx]

I really feel sorry for Adelina on one level, but then on another level, I don't, because she doesn't need my pity. Whatever negativity might have reached her, I bet she has unshakable belief that she is the rightful winner of the gold medal, and I don't think she loses sleep over the outcome. I bet she feels sorry for us common people who have nothing to do but vacariously live through her.

These elite athletes are not like us common folks. They have invincible mental strength and they can just shake off whatever negativity they get. And, if they can't, well, then they're not elite athletes. That's how it is.

Her open hug after the win should be an indication that she knew what's going on and there's nothing to hide or wrong to it...just genuinely grateful that some authority in such powerful position helped out. If you grow up in a federation/environment where power play is the norm, I doubt you'll suddenly start question the fairness of it all, not when you are the only one of the countless little girls that actually made it.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Adelina has repeatedly shown she was only able to beat others internationally by PCS....

Quite the claim. That would pretty much mean in the vast majority of her competitions, she placed above other competitors despite those having overall higher TES, and Adelina only pulled ahead because of PCS. Why don't you bother proofing a claim like that with some actual facts?

Let's take a look at her international competitions (at least those were she won a medal) - and at the specific number of skaters per event that had higher TES then her but ended up below her.

2010-11

JGP Austria - 1st:
SP: TES 36,12 - highest TES out of all skaters
LP: TES 62,85 - highest TES out of all skaters
Overall highest TES. Skaters beat only per PCS: none.

JPG Britain - 1st:
SP: TES 34,5 - highest TES out of all skaters.
LP: TES 56,12 - highest TES out of all the skaters (though Siraj was very close with 56,07. However, their PCS were only about a point apart too).
Overall highest TES. Skaters beat only per PCS: none.

JGPF - 1st:
SP: TES 31,52 - highest TES out of all skaters.
LP: TES 59,73 - highest TES out of all skaters.
Overall highest TES. Skaters beat only per PCS: none.

JWC - 1st:
SP: TES 33,97 - skaters with higher TES: Liza with 34,12; only 0,15 points higher, who came 2nd in the SP
LP: TES 61,04 - highest TES out of all the skaters.
Overall highest TES (Liza's LP TES was 56,28, so Adelina beat her overall by 4,91 in TES). Skaters beat only per PCS: none.

2011-12

Cup of China - 3rd:
SP: 3rd with 29,66 - skaters with higher TES but ranked below her: Kexin Zhang, 31,47
LP: 3rd with 51,69 - skaters with higher TES but ranked below her: Christina Gao, 53,89
Skaters beat only per PCS: Kexin Zhang, Christina Gao

Cup of Russia 3rd:
SP: 3rd with 31,1 - skaters with higher TES but ranked below her: Biryukova, with 0,46 higher TES
LP: 3rd with 56,34 - only skater with higher TES (2nd place) beat her in the LP
Overall higher TES than everyone ranked below her (87,44 to 87,06 from Biryukova). Skaters beat only per PCS: none.

Youth Olympics -2nd:
SP: 2nd with 32,66 - higher than all the skaters ranked below her
LP: 3rd with 46,72 - higher than everyone ranked below her
Overall 2nd with 79,38 TES; beating Zijun Li with higher TES (85,17). Skaters beat only per PCS: Zijun Li

JWC -3rd:
SP: 3rd with 30,92 - skaters with higher TES who ranked below her: Miyahara with 0,15 points more
LP: 3rd with 59,29 - skaters with higher TES who rakned below her: Shelepen with 1,36 points more
Overall 3rd with 3rd highest TES (Adelina: 90,21 > Miyahara: 89,64 > Shelepen: 86,43). Skaters beat only per PCS: none.

2012-13

Skate America -3rd:
SP: 2nd with 29,21 - skaters with higher TES who ranked below her: Gao (1,8 points more), Meite (1,4 points more)
LP: 3rd with 51,36 - skaters with higher TES who ranked below her: Imai (5,46 points more), Leonova (1,85 points more), Meite (1,45 points more)
Overall: skaters with higher TES that ranked below her: Imai, Meite

Europeans - 2nd:
SP: TES 37,25 - highest TES of all the skaters
LP: 3rd with 62,39 - higher TES than everyone ranked below her (+ the 2nd highest LP skater)
Overall highest TES by a hair (99,64 for Adelina and 99,49 for Liza), however lost to Caro due to PCS while having 6 points more TES.
Skater beat only per PCS: none.

2013-14

Cup of China - 2nd:
SP: highest TES of all the skaters
LP: 3rd with 50,36 - skaters with higher TES who ranked below her: Murakami (1,23 points more), Guo (0,23 points more)
Overall TES though: Adelina 86,22 > Murakami 80,12 > Gua 75,11. Skaters beat only per PCS: none.

Trophee Bompard - 2nd:
SP: 3rd with 29,24 - skaters with higher TES ranked below her: Gao, Cesario, Meite, Lacoste (too lazy to write down all the numbers here)
LP: 1st with 65,15 - skaters with higher TES: Pogorilaya with 0,02 points more
Overall, out of those ranked below her only Pogorilaya had a higher TES (97,03 to 94,39). Skaters beat only per PCS: Pogorilaya

Europeans - 2nd:
SP: 1st with 37,12 - skaters with higher TES: Julia with 0,94 points more
LP: 2nd with 62,03 - higher than all the skaters ranked below her
Overall, 2nd highest TES after Julia. Skaters beat only per PCS: none.

So overall, we have 4 competitions where Adelina beat other skaters based on PCS despite losing in TES: CoC 2011, Youth Olys 2012, SA 2012, TEB 2013. In contrats, we have 9 competitions were she beat everyone ranked below her on TES already. How does that justify saying she 'has repeatedly shown she was only able to beat others internationally by PCS'? It doesn't.

 

[chloepoco]

Her open hug after the win should be an indication that she knew what's going on and there's nothing to hide or wrong to it...just genuinely grateful that some authority in such powerful position helped out. If you grow up in a federation/environment where power play is the norm, I doubt you'll suddenly start question the fairness of it all, not when you are the only one of the countless little girls that actually made it.

What a ridiculous statement!

 

[jenaj]

What a ridiculous statement!

Definitely!