Iconic programs that you find ... overrated

[Tonichelle]

It is hard to compare a competitive program with a show program, but yeah, Rudy. Not a dry eye in the house.

*pretty sure* he competed with it on the pro circuit. I say it counts!

 

[Mathman]

///Even in "Die Fledermaus" I found Charlie to have outshone her...

It was the coat and tails. Meryl didn't have a chance.

 

[Mathman]

And this is where profound differences in cultural context weigh in...

For Russians, and other eastern and central Europeans, a large toothy open mouthed smile by an adult is a negative at best, and at worst the sign of cognitive impairment.

And even in Canada, "a big American smile' may seem or be viewed as false or like too much showmanship attempting to distract from poor performance quality.

Well, you know the old saying: "Americans are so inscrutable; they smile all the time."

But seriously, I think there are two points to mention. First, figure skaters are like stage performers. They have to project to the back row of the balcony. That's why they wear gobs of stage make-up and employ exaggerated theatrical gestures and facial expressions. In the television age it looks kind of funny sometimes, especially in close-ups.

The other point is that in the golden age of figure skating in the U.S., the standard was the professional touring show. The only reason skaters took part in amateur competitions at all was to pad their resumes so they could get a job with Ice Follies or Ice Capades. These were essentially Las Vegas Reviews on ice. You were expected to dress like a show girl and to smile like one, too.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5049/5241006049_1faf90effa.jpg

 

[keasus]

It was the coat and tails. Meryl, didn't have a chance.

Don't forget Charlie's magical blonde curls. And if there is a man who looks better wearing an ascot, I want to see it:dance2: (I really wanted a swoon emoji.)

 

[keasus]

I don't know the 'common' criticism, but my opinion is, that their performance was incredibly technical, but I felt no emotional connection to it. To me it was all about technique and speed. Especially in the last 1/3 of the program, all I saw was very rushed movements as if speed was the main point of ice dance. (and some of those moments were not nice).
If you think about that they always wanted to skate to Scheherazade, then I have to ask, where were their emotions during performing their dream program? I didn't feel any connection between them.

I loved D/W's Schez. I was also really impressed with how they handled the musical cuts so seemlessly. (I read somewhere that Charlie was very involved in the musical editing for most of D/W's programs). I think they captured the "push and pull" of the story as the relationship between the two characters shifted given that they had to do in less time than the ballet.

 

[Mathman]

*pretty sure* he competed with it on the pro circuit. I say it counts!

Just in case not everyone knows what program Tonichelle is talking about, here it is. Rudy had just been diagnosed HIV positive, having already lost a brother and a coach to AIDS, plus losing his father to a heart attack.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHSw4EgVAP4&t=3m0s

 

[Bcash]

Torvill/Dean Bolero

Perhaps innovative for its time but looks really dated now. The music was the star not their skating.

 

[Tonichelle]

Just in case not everyone knows what program Tonichelle is talking about, here it is. Rudy had just been diagnosed HIV positive, having already lost a brother and a coach to AIDS, plus losing his father to a heart attack.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHSw4EgVAP4&t=3m0s

and now I'm sucked into the vortex of watching a bunch of vids from the "golden era" of N. American skating... I HAVE THINGS TO DO!!!!

 

[Eddie Lee]

Totally agree re Sui/Han SP @ 4C. Have returned to re-watch it 5 times, already!

 

[TontoK]

All of Yuna's programs except Send in the Clowns. I never got what all the fuss was about until this program. It was beautiful. Channeling my Southern mother (MSRIP)... the rest were perfectly nice programs.

On the underrated side of the things, I thought Brian Boitano's Olympic comeback program to Aaron Copland is one of the unsung masterpieces of figure skating. I suppose it is because he never skated it really cleanly, but it was something special. When he skated that spread-eagle all the way across center ice midway through the program... it was glorious.

 

[jenm]

Yulia's Schindler's List - I never got the hype about it. I thought the music carried her. I felt like her movements were rushed and that some of the choreography were just there to make the program look busy. I much prefer Megapolis.

--

I think Yuna's Send in the Clowns was under appreciated. It was, IMO, Yuna at her prime. As much as I love Danse and Bond, SITC was sublime. She had much cleaner and smoother edges, more mature presentation in SITC than her previous programs. This fancam shows how fast and smooth she glides across the ice. I still strongly believe it should have been the SP world record holder had it been scored under different circumstances.

 

[skaterr]

I'd like to add, regarding Yuna's Gershwin, that that program isn't really considered iconic because of the music or choreography, but because of how brilliantly she performed it given the circumstances and pressure. Pretty much any program would have been considered "iconic" as long as she skated it clean like she did. To call the program overrated would be to assume the music and the choreography are very highly rated, which I'm not sure they ever were.

Yuna used to say best practices help you increase the likelihood of a clean program. I hope their favorites do clean both programs in olympics. If the skaters get a gold medal without controversy, the public would watch the programs until they got sick.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

It made me question her sense of rhythm and line, not Charlie's so much. Even in "Die Fledermaus" I found Charlie to have outshone her as he showed a more natural rhythm and movement to the music. Meryl had face and big arm movement from time to time but I felt she was stiff and her lack of toe point jarring in that waltz. I find that to be true with Tanith Belbin as well. Compared to Tessa's dancing in "Funny Face" (a program I don't particularly like) or even other female ice dancers and I think Meryl looked even stiffer and more lacking in natural movement. What Meryl had with Charlie, to me, was very clever and big choreography and let Meryl shine in catchy, difficult looking moves. So that's my answer.

Charlies definitely the better dancer between the two. Most casual viewers and even some not-so-casual viewers are drawn to watch the lady. I watch both as much as possible but as soon as I pick out who the better of the two are I sometimes tend to watch them more haha. It's the same with Virtue/Moir too, I love to watch Scott.

 

[EyesOfLove]

IMO Yuna's LP in Sochi deserves more credit than it gets. I remember some commented that the program was a snoozefest or that she was sleepwalking through the performance, but I personally very much enjoyed the subtle beauty of her presentation in this program than I did in her SITC program. Every element, along with the connecting movements, flows seamlessly with the musical structure and the way Yuna hits every note on point is very riveting.

 

[WeakAnkles]

Didn't say that I didn't respect D/Ws programs technically, just don't relate to them at all....

The thing is, I don't get what D/W's iconic programs mean to most of you... and that was what the OP asked. Which iconic programs seem overrated to you [i.e. to me]?.

Ah, well Marlie brought an particularly American perspective to ID. Ballet and traditional ballroom are European in origin. They require a particular kind of muscle control and posture. Now think of quintessentially American dances like tap. They're far freer in terms of posture, more loose-limbed, athletic in a very different sort of way (no, I am in no way arguing that ballet is not athletic in its own way).

I think my favorite FD of theirs may just be Die Fledermaus, because it took a quintessentially European dance style--the waltz--and gave it a quintessentially American theatrical flare. Same with their Giselle Yankee Polka. Amazing what a little bit of recontextualizing a dance form can do.

And no one, but no one, has yet to top their Bollywood program (these three are my favorite Marlie programs).

ETA: The reason I won't add what I consider 'overrated" programs is because that's simply a matter of De gustibus non est disputandum at its most glaring. There is no way to objectively argue the matter; it's really a question of taste. Personal taste.

 

[TerpsichoreFS]

Yuna used to say best practices help you increase the likelihood of a clean program. I hope their favorites do clean both programs in olympics. If the skaters get a gold medal without controversy, the public would watch the programs until they got sick.

What are best practices? I've heard this term before but I'm not sure what it means

 

[plushyfan]

I never got Plushenko's Tribute to Najinksi, or whatever it was. Actually, post 2002 his programs always seemed the same. Too much posing.

What you call "too much posing" those were original ballet moves from Nijinsky's Afternoon of a Faun. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEJXkfMYTX4&t=2m15s For me that is poor beauty.

 

[randomfan]

I think Yuna's Send in the Clowns was under appreciated. It was, IMO, Yuna at her prime. As much as I love Danse and Bond, SITC was sublime. She had much cleaner and smoother edges, more mature presentation in SITC than her previous programs. This fancam shows how fast and smooth she glides across the ice. I still strongly believe it should have been the SP world record holder had it been scored under different circumstances.

Breathtaking...thank you for showing that fancam. I've always loved Yuna's Send in the Clowns, but that fancam makes me love it even more.

 

[TGee]

What you call "too much posing" those were original ballet moves from Nijinsky's Afternoon of a Faun. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEJXkfMYTX4&t=2m15s

Plushyfan, you and I are precisely on the same page...

I often notice that many of the postures from Russian methods of ballet are precisely what a good number of GS posters, especially from the US, find artificial or posing. I can accept though that this difference in context makes the programs come across differently, and they can't relate to them the way those raised in that dance and theatre tradition do.

Wish a more few folks in this discussion would take it in the quirky inquiring spirit intended, rather than getting down on those of us who can honestly say: No, not seeing it, sincerely.

 

[plushyfan]

Plushyfan, you and I are precisely on the same page...

I often notice that many of the postures from Russian methods of ballet are precisely what a good number of GS posters, especially from the US, find artificial or posing. I can accept though that this difference in context makes the programs come across differently, and they can't relate to them the way those raised in that dance and theatre tradition do.

Wish a more few folks in this discussion would take it in the quirky inquiring spirit intended, rather than getting down on those of us who can honestly say: No, not seeing it, sincerely.

I'm happy you think that. I totally agree. There is Russian style even today.. what is so different from the American style. And there was much more intense before the IJS!!!

Nikolai Tsiskaridze ( ex Bolshoi's principal dancer) opinion on Plushenko: "From my point of view involved in ballet , it is immediately obvious. He is an unparalelled level, perhaps even close to perfection."

This woman is a fan of Sergei Polunin and Plushenko. She is looking for many similarities in their moves https://www.instagram.com/polunin.plushenko_photography/

The people can decide like Plushenko or not. That is matter of taste. I think his is one of the reasons why Yagudin was more popular in N-A than Plushenko. Yagudin skated in American style. But the Russians chose Plushenko.