Iconic programs that you find ... overrated

[daphna]

Kwan and East of Eden - I just never got into it.

 

[[email protected]]

Don't usually read threads with such headings. Gave a try, though. Don't care less about many programs from the past. In what sense are they iconic?

Was a bit perplexed to see Torvill/Dean in the list. They were gods of their time and Bolero was both magical and innovative.

What hurt me, though, is seeing so many people singling out Yulia's SL including the topic starter. Is it iconic? I guess so, with 5.3 million youtube views it's the all time record holder. But who cares about the views? This is the program that revived my interest in figure skating. It is the one and only reason I am here for 3 plus years with more than a 1000 posts. I watched it easily a hundred times. It gave me tears, it gave me shivers. Overrated? Whatever, guys, whatever...

 

[janav]

Don't usually read threads with such headings. Gave a try, though. Don't care less about many programs from the past. In what sense are they iconic?

Was a bit perplexed to see Torvill/Dean in the list. They were gods of their time and Bolero was both magical and innovative.

What hurt me, though, is seeing so many people singling out Yulia's SL including the topic starter. Is it iconic? I guess so, with 5.3 million youtube views it's the all time record holder. But who cares about the views? This is the program that revived my interest in figure skating. It is the one and only reason I am here for 3 plus years with more than a 1000 posts. I watched it easily a hundred times. It gave me tears, it gave me shivers. Overrated? Whatever, guys, whatever...

Starr Andrews with 46 million views disaggrees https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBxpjtcBAG8

 

[[email protected]]

Starr Andrews with 46 million views disaggrees https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBxpjtcBAG8

I know about this clip but I meant a competition not a cutie-funny video.

 

[janav]

I know about this clip but I meant a competition not a cutie-funny video.

Hm, that looks like a competition video to me but sure, it's cutie-funny and not an Olympic competion. This was meant to be a lighthearted jab and I didn't mean to insult you, so yes, Yulia and her views ftw!

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Not YouTube, but the Shibs' SD from this past Nationals was posted on the NBC Olympics Facebook page two separate times with over 4.5 million views each, bringing the total to about 9 million last time I checked. Nobody here is arguing that that program is iconic.

Anyway, don't take people's choices here so personally. Not everyone will like what you like, and the fact that it's been cited many times means that we all recognize it is an iconic program or can be argued is an iconic program.

 

[TGee]

I'm confused by this....which Russian singles skaters are balletic? Certainly not Anna, Elena, or Liza. Maria yes. Evgenia, maybe only a tiny bit.

Legendary queens of Russian ladies, Irina S. and Maria B., were not very balletic at all.

Oksana Baiul is the most balletic skater I can think of, but she wasn't Russian. Also, Sasha Cohen .

Ashley Wagner used to do very balletic programs when she was with Phillip Mills. Gracie Gold's Firebird program was so balletic in style that people complained about the egg-laying pose (which I loved!)

Russian pairs have always been the most balletic. Russian men, sometimes. Russian ladies seem to skate more in the "American" style rather than the "Russian" style.

Then again, I tend to think that these nationalistic "styles" aren't actually real, and we just use them as excuses to prefer skaters from one country over another. Some skaters have a more powerful, athletic style, others are very dramatic and theatrical, some are very balletic. Some are a great combination of styles. But any skaters' distinct style seems to have nothing at all to do with what country they are from.

I believe that you are thinking of Russian balletic style from the perspective of ballet as a kind of dance. And

But those of us familiar with the Russian, vs. western European or American schools of ballet are referring to the way what you would likely call 'acting a part' in ballet is learned differently as in the Russian ballet tradition. As well, there is something called 'characterization', unique to Russian and eastern slavic ballet, that imports patterns of movement from eastern slavic folk dance traditions and from Russian theatre tradition that is quite codified. [Invite you to look it up...please....]

These forms of symbolic expression and patterns of movement are often quite theatric, and pretty far away from what the Brits refer to the modern American 'naturalistic' style of acting.

There are a number of classic poses, arm movements, facial expressions etc. from Russian ballet that are studied and imitated as part of training. These are iconic and symbolic forms of expression, and even memes, in this dance tradition. Similar ones exist in Russian theatre. In some cases, GS posters are seeing them as miming, and may not 'get' the code of expression embedded in the symbology because they aren't familiar with the reference points.

Plushyfan gave an example of one of Zhenya's programs in which many of the movements and were directly taken from an iconic ballet performance.

Interestingly enough, folks raised in the code can find North American programs annoying. I recall hearing a lot of 'wish someone would make them take ballet so they knew what they were doing with their arms' from my eastern slavic relatives growing up.....of course their definition of 'ballet' was eastern European...

Uhm, and while I generally respect you as a fair and balanced poster, I'm finding it a bit frustrating that you are so insistent in denying that different styles and valuations of 'what is good' and 'what symbols mean' will vary across nationalities and cultures.

And while great skaters and choreographers will push the boundaries of style and expression nationally and globally, most will first find expression in the code they developed in.

 

[andromache]

I believe that you are thinking of Russian balletic style from the perspective of ballet as a kind of dance. And

But those of us familiar with the Russian, vs. western European or American schools of ballet are referring to the way what you would likely call 'acting a part' in ballet is learned differently as in the Russian ballet tradition. As well, there is something called 'characterization', unique to Russian and eastern slavic ballet, that imports patterns of movement from eastern slavic folk dance traditions and from Russian theatre tradition that is quite codified. [Invite you to look it up...please....]

These forms of symbolic expression and patterns of movement are often quite theatric, and pretty far away from what the Brits refer to the modern American 'naturalistic' style of acting.

There are a number of classic poses, arm movements, facial expressions etc. from Russian ballet that are studied and imitated as part of training. These are iconic and symbolic forms of expression, and even memes, in this dance tradition. Similar ones exist in Russian theatre. In some cases, GS posters are seeing them as miming, and may not 'get' the code of expression embedded in the symbology because they aren't familiar with the reference points.

Plushyfan gave an example of one of Zhenya's programs in which many of the movements and were directly taken from an iconic ballet performance.

Interestingly enough, folks raised in the code can find North American programs annoying. I recall hearing a lot of 'wish someone would make them take ballet so they knew what they were doing with their arms' from my eastern slavic relatives growing up.....of course their definition of 'ballet' was eastern European...

Uhm, and while I generally respect you as a fair and balanced poster, I'm finding it a bit frustrating that you are so insistent in denying that different styles and valuations of 'what is good' and 'what symbols mean' will vary across nationalities and cultures.

And while great skaters and choreographers will push the boundaries of style and expression nationally and globally, most will first find expression in the code they developed in.

I did misunderstand what was meant by balletic in this context, and for that I apologize. However, the post I was referencing reduced Russian skating to "balletic" and North American skating to "fake smiles," and that is what I was addressing. More than once I have come across the insinuation that European skating is rooted in a deep tradition of ballet that value beautiful line and movement throughout the entire body, whereas North American skating is based on dramatic facial expressions to compensate for a lack of ability in other areas.

I saw plushyfan's post, and I thought it was very interesting.

That said, in a globalized world, skaters often have coaches and choreographers or dance teachers who are not of their nationality, or who have coaches and choreographers or dance teachers who had mentors not of their nationality. "What is good" and "what symbols" mean will of course vary across nationalities and cultures, but in a sport as diverse as figure skating, it is impossible to put all skaters of one nationality into boxes based upon those nationalities.

 

[MiRé]

Don't usually read threads with such headings. Gave a try, though. Don't care less about many programs from the past. In what sense are they iconic?

Was a bit perplexed to see Torvill/Dean in the list. They were gods of their time and Bolero was both magical and innovative.

What hurt me, though, is seeing so many people singling out Yulia's SL including the topic starter. Is it iconic? I guess so, with 5.3 million youtube views it's the all time record holder. But who cares about the views? This is the program that revived my interest in figure skating. It is the one and only reason I am here for 3 plus years with more than a 1000 posts. I watched it easily a hundred times. It gave me tears, it gave me shivers. Overrated? Whatever, guys, whatever...

Congrats. But it didn't revive my interest, and many other on this forum. we don't have to like the program just because you find it compelling and emotional. This kind of post is so unnecessary :noshake:

 

[Ares]

The reason Mao became such a beautiful skater is that she matured in life and in the sport. People forget that in the late 90's, she was just a jumping bean. It's why I'm somewhat "blah" on the current state of the ladies discipline. There's no denying the technical and competitive strength of many of today's favored skaters, but there's also no denying that something is missing. The emotional side of the performance is just playacting.

Obviously she was "jumping bean" too for some time. Emotional maturity and experience also has something common with what you can give.

 

[gotoschool]

The reason Mao became such a beautiful skater is that she matured in life and in the sport. People forget that in the late 90's, she was just a jumping bean. It's why I'm somewhat "blah" on the current state of the ladies discipline. There's no denying the technical and competitive strength of many of today's favored skaters, but there's also no denying that something is missing. The emotional side of the performance is just playacting.

I can't even find a full performance of Mao from the late 1990s. This is as close as I could get Novice Championships 2000 when she was 10. Even at this young age, her skating skills, charisma and dancing were exceptional with a great layback spin. To me, she was more than just a jumping bean even then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qmv-Y4UWP4

Can you find a performance from the late 90's?

For me, Mao's first great artistic performance was in the 2003 Nationals SP. Nostaglic wonder for childhood innocence gone by that foreshadowed the meditative grace and emotional depth of Nocturne.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVxwDIW-qzs

 

[Mathman]

What hurt me, though, is seeing so many people singling out Yulia's SL including the topic starter. Is it iconic? I guess so, with 5.3 million youtube views it's the all time record holder.

Well, this performance by Starr Andrews (I think she is in juniors mow?) has 46 million views.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBxpjtcBAG8

But about Julia lipnitskia's Shindler's List, I do think it qualifies as "iconic" in the sense that she was the most popular and talked-about skater in the world at the time, and this is her signature program.

I think that the only criticism of the program was based on the view that she was too young to take on such a powerfully emotional theme. Evgenia Medvedeva's current LP faces the same objections to some.

Anyway, the little girl in the red coat was certainly an "iconic" image that left its mark on figure skating audiences, at least for a time.

 

[Mathman]

Kwan and East of Eden - I just never got into it.

Oh! Oh! Oh! You never got into this iconic performance?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYwAZb14Ags

You didn't like that long backward, forward, inside, outside spiral sequence where she is on one foot for 15 seconds or so? (Followed by that little shimmy that grabs me every time. ) And of course the falling leaf into an inside-outside spread-eagle right at the climax and resolution into the main theme of the music -- that has been remarked on too many times for me to add anything. Dauntless courage!

 

[karne]

What hurt me, though, is seeing so many people singling out Yulia's SL including the topic starter. Is it iconic? I guess so, with 5.3 million youtube views it's the all time record holder. But who cares about the views? This is the program that revived my interest in figure skating. It is the one and only reason I am here for 3 plus years with more than a 1000 posts. I watched it easily a hundred times. It gave me tears, it gave me shivers. Overrated? Whatever, guys, whatever...

It has so many views on Youtube because Averbukh cleverly struck the gimmick of putting a pretty little girl in a red coat, claiming her expressionless face was "forlorn and sad", and stuffing the program full of flexibility moves designed to make audiences go "wow!" so they didn't notice she had zero connection to the music. The gimmick worked and yes, it still galls me that that is the one with millions of views on Youtube when an actual, real, emotional, well-interpreted Schindler's List went largely unnoticed.

 

[Sugiady]

Oh! Oh! Oh! You never got into this iconic performance?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYwAZb14Ags

You didn't like that long backward, forward, inside, outside spiral sequence where she is on one foot for 15 seconds or so? (Followed by that little shimmy that grabs me every time. ) And of course the falling leaf into an inside-outside spread-eagle right at the climax and resolution into the main theme of the music -- that has been remarked on too many times for me to add anything. Dauntless courage!

This is what I need for my life today.
What a joy to watch this…
After having this video, single ladies programs in nowadays may bring me heart attack now.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

It has so many views on Youtube because Averbukh cleverly struck the gimmick of putting a pretty little girl in a red coat, claiming her expressionless face was "forlorn and sad", and stuffing the program full of flexibility moves designed to make audiences go "wow!" so they didn't notice she had zero connection to the music. The gimmick worked and yes, it still galls me that that is the one with millions of views on Youtube when an actual, real, emotional, well-interpreted Schindler's List went largely unnoticed.

Oh Karne

I'm a trained musicician and play professionally and now mostly just recreationally. I'd never speak with such certainty as you on the matter but I can assure you I see a clear connection to her movements and the music and your obviois over simplication of her SL is laughable. Whatever makes you feel better I guess. It is your opinion after all.

I actually liked Josh's program but it's obvious to me why it wouldn't garner the same attention as a successful Olympic season program that even the director of the movie wrote her a letter telling her how much it moved him and his family. I just don't understand your lack of respect but somehow I doubt you really care. FWIW: I can see why someone might think it is an overrated program. I don't understand the need for your relentless flaming of the subject. YMMV

 

[Arriba627]

I still watch the Paul Wylie Schindler's List. It's from a '94 pro competition so the tech is totally different from today's stuff, but I love the way he skated it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAgZkY6vAyY

ETA -- Forgot to post this photo of Paul from U.S. Nats 2017. He was just walking around talking with people. Very friendly. Had a chance to tell him how much I loved his S.L. program. He is aging well. :luv17: https://t.co/AZUwF7fOIw

 

[TGee]

It has so many views on Youtube because Averbukh cleverly struck the gimmick of putting a pretty little girl in a red coat, claiming her expressionless face was "forlorn and sad", and stuffing the program full of flexibility moves designed to make audiences go "wow!" so they didn't notice she had zero connection to the music. The gimmick worked and yes, it still galls me that that is the one with millions of views on Youtube when an actual, real, emotional, well-interpreted Schindler's List went largely unnoticed.

As it happens, I found Yulia very credible in this program just because she had a certain childlike dissociation from tragedy in her expression.

The girl in a red coat is not a mini adult in a red coat. I felt the story, and I felt it credibly presented from an appropriately less than mature perspective.

In fact at the time, my reaction was that finally someone was choreographing a young skater who was clearly not mature in physical form or mind appropriately, without going for the "little princess" approach.

And Yulia cannot be the girl in the red dress for me now, precisely because she has truly matured not just in body, but in mind as she has worked through her own trauma.

Which is very different from the challenges I face in connnecting with some of Evgenia's programs....which seem to be reaching for a maturity she hasn't yet reached. I'd rather see her sparkling whimsy captured. I do not find that she is yet able, in whatever tradition, to present a convincing meditation on adult tragedy.

 

[Ares]

When I watch these commercials, and there are several, it's almost embarrassing how obsessed Americans are with having very white teeth. This commercial ran constantly during US Nationals. It's for Crest White Strips: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AP3sCUbChlI

Here's a commercial for Lumineers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HLUkYSuiRo

It's well known that Americans often cross the line with their "white teeth obsession". Often they look very artificial with their glowing in the dark teeth that are also sometimes too big (I blame veneers for that).

 

[Khoai]

As it happens, I found Yulia very credible in this program just because she had a certain childlike dissociation from tragedy in her expression.

The girl in a red coat is not a mini adult in a red coat. I felt the story, and I felt it credibly presented from an appropriately less than mature perspective.

In fact at the time, my reaction was that finally someone was choreographing a young skater who was clearly not mature in physical form or mind appropriately, without going for the "little princess" approach.

And Yulia cannot be the girl in the red dress for me now, precisely because she has truly matured not just in body, but in mind as she has worked through her own trauma.

Which is very different from the challenges I face in connnecting with some of Evgenia's programs....which seem to be reaching for a maturity she hasn't yet reached. I'd rather see her sparkling whimsy captured. I do not find that she is yet able, in whatever tradition, to present a convincing meditation on adult tragedy.

I am not Miss Lipniskaya's fan by any means. But I do think her SL program has become iconic. It doesn't have to be a masterpiece or a great achievement to be remembered for long. Many icons become icons and the majority of people in the later years still don't get why. It just happened. That's life.