2016-17 State of Russian Men's skating

[gmyers]

That is so incorrect. Russian coaches often sends their skaters in US and Canada to work with choreographers, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Liza FS choreo by Sandhu this season was cheap to be honest (the music cut also terrible), Jeffrey Buttle did a terrible job with Voronov a couple of season ago, Marina Zueva's programs for Eteri skaters last year were meh. Shae-Lynn Bourne's SP for Lena Radionova was fine this season, but i think that's the only good program made by an american/canadian choreographer for a russian skater in years.

Some of these works were so bad that i even suspected these choreographers made it on purpose. Besides that there is no need to travel that much: Zhulin and Tchernyshev are great choreographers, Morozov and Averbukh also made great programs in the past, Misha Ge did a fine job with Mishin's skaters and Anya Pogorilaya this season.

Actually it's true the opposite: USFS never sends their skaters in Russia.



Russian Fed isn't betting that much on Eteri with Men figure skating, because her skaters actually achieved good results: Voronov won a bronze at GPF three years ago and a couple of medals at Europeans with her (basically the peak of his career), Pitkeev JGPF and JW silver medalist in 2013/14, now she has Moris Kvitelashvili who is very consistent even with three quads in the free skate, and also a couple of interesting skaters at juniors. Give her time.

I think there are much more experienced coaches in Russia in Men figure skating: for example i don't get Mishin's strategy for 2018 Olympics. Petrov in the past two years hasn't improved that much, Artur Dmitriev Jr and Andrei Lazukin were pretty much unknown until this season and i didn't even know that Artur Gachinski is still training.




In fairness at that event judges were incredibly strict with all the russians. I remember Adelina getting pretty low scores despite two decent performances.



I kinda agree with that: for some reason Russia can't have the artistic skater. Let's say a Jason Brown situation, where his technique is way way behind the rest of the field but he's still able to stay in the mix because of the PCS (in his case even with the inflation of the TES) is impossible for russian skaters, they have to rely on consistency and a stronger bv than the rest of the field to be competitive which is way more difficult. Probably their federation isn't as powerful as the US fed.

I really meant coaching and not all the choreography being done. Because it's very common when Russian gets choreography by North American it's usually all thrown out! But if they were like hanyu or Fernandez or chan or brown and also had american coach things may be different.

2013 was a horrible worlds for Russia execpt for v/t and b/s that's true

Winning a Euro medal isn't exactly hard since their are no other contenders at Europeans besides Javier. Europe is not exactly bursting at the seams with great men's skaters.

Yeah but the podium could have no Russians at all! It's not automatic that if a field is weak Russians will be at the top. Medalists could be brezina and besseghier and not kovtun or Kolyada.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

CSG always says Plushenko should have competed in the World CH and then Russia has 3 spots in Sochi.

Oh come on, that is absolutely false....

...everyone knows Plushenko would have gotten 2 spots, at best.

 

[moriel]

So much! Kovtun had a good junior season but had disaster Russian senior nationals. based on kovtun junior results he was sent euros even though he was fifth! behind Plushenko voronov menshov and gachinski! Then at euros he was the highest ranking Russian man after Plushenko withdrawal. Then he was named to worlds and flopped so spectacularly it was shocking! Lowest TES in sp. lucky to make lp. No doubt the worst performance by a Russian man in a decade. Maybe the most extraordinary special treatment of all time. Kovtun caused Russia to have one spot. Handed a huge gift and didn't bother to work or train and even Tarasova has hated him ever since! It always made me wonder is kovtun related to billionaire oligarch?



I don't think that is true because even when Russian men can jump they do not get pcs. Training in North America Chen is assumed to have proper IJS artistry anyway



Maybe

Well, we never seen russian men do 6 quads together with some consistency.
As for PCs, Kovtun gets them all, for example. He is just 6 PCs points behind Javi in SP and 10 in FS. Imagine if he landed his quads consistently and not once a year when stars align?
Where a clean Kolyada would be if he could land 5-6 quads?
Nah, the issue is with jumps really. As Jason Brown shows us, there is no way to close the score gap on PCs only, no matter how well you explore the system.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Winning a Euro medal isn't exactly hard since their are no other contenders at Europeans besides Javier. Europe is not exactly bursting at the seams with great men's skaters.

Well, even though 4CC is more competitive at the moment, Kovtun still got 266.80 (which would have been good enough for 5th at Worlds, had he replicated it). So that's pretty competitive.

Although just to be fair, you also think Kolyada's bronze isn't worth noting, right? Because I'm sure if Kolyada had beaten Kovtun at Euros, certain people wouldn't be so dismissive of that competition.

 

[plushyfan]

Oh come on, that is absolutely false....

...everyone knows Plushenko would have gotten 2 spots, at best.

ah...what a great sense of humour!

 

[Tolstoj]

I really meant coaching and not all the choreography being done. Because it's very common when Russian gets choreography by North American it's usually all thrown out! But if they were like hanyu or Fernandez or chan or brown and also had american coach things may be different.

2013 was a horrible worlds for Russia execpt for v/t and b/s that's true




Yeah but the podium could have no Russians at all! It's not automatic that if a field is weak Russians will be at the top. Medalists could be brezina and besseghier and not kovtun or Kolyada.

What's the point? Russia has the biggest tradition in figure skating, there are many russian coaches in US and some american coach learnt everything from them.

On top of that most of these skaters don't have the money to afford it, it's already challenging for them to travel from various parts of Russia to go in Moscow and SPB, and the federation helps these skaters if they are starting to achieve something. (i don't know if it's possible in US)

Also we don't know if those american coaches or the US Federation are okay to train Russians skaters that compete for Russia in America.

There are some example of russians skaters trained in US without representing other countries, Maria Sotskova for example worked with Rafael team when she was competing with juniors but she moved back in Moscow this season because the training conditions were a mess.

 

[coldblueeyes]

What's the point? Russia has the biggest tradition in figure skating, there are many russian coaches in US and some american coach learnt everything from them.

On top of that most of these skaters don't have the money to afford it, it's already challenging for them to travel from various parts of Russia to go in Moscow and SPB, and the federation helps these skaters if they are starting to achieve something. (i don't know if it's possible in US)

Also we don't know if those american coaches or the US Federation are okay to train Russians skaters that compete for Russia in America.

There are some example of russians skaters trained in US without representing other countries, Maria Sotskova for example worked with Rafael team when she was competing with juniors but she moved back in Moscow this season because the training conditions were a mess.

Oh, don't worry about gmyers. They have the idea that Russia knows nothing about skating, otherwise they'd be winning everything.

 

[RemyRose]

There are some example of russians skaters trained in US without representing other countries, Maria Sotskova for example worked with Rafael team when she was competing with juniors but she moved back in Moscow this season because the training conditions were a mess.

This part isn't accurate No matter

 

[gmyers]

What's the point? Russia has the biggest tradition in figure skating, there are many russian coaches in US and some american coach learnt everything from them.

On top of that most of these skaters don't have the money to afford it, it's already challenging for them to travel from various parts of Russia to go in Moscow and SPB, and the federation helps these skaters if they are starting to achieve something. (i don't know if it's possible in US)

Also we don't know if those american coaches or the US Federation are okay to train Russians skaters that compete for Russia in America.

There are some example of russians skaters trained in US without representing other countries, Maria Sotskova for example worked with Rafael team when she was competing with juniors but she moved back in Moscow this season because the training conditions were a mess.

Oh, don't worry about gmyers. They have the idea that Russia knows nothing about skating, otherwise they'd be winning everything.

The best coaching isn't in Russia for men's and dance! 95% of dance teams train in North America. That isn't a coincidence! The most obscure and underfunded teams in the world train in North America. The Russian system is broken except for ladies where they are creating new things and pairs which is very hard to organize and Russia still has the best in many respects. But men's and dance North America is it for men's and dance. There are also systemic problems and views of those disciplines that are outdated and ineffective.

 

[silverfoxes]

Oh for god's sake, don't start in with the ice dance crap here...just stop it! How many hundreds of times do you have to post the same thing before you get tired of it?

 

[evangeline]

Well, even though 4CC is more competitive at the moment, Kovtun still got 266.80 (which would have been good enough for 5th at Worlds, had he replicated it). So that's pretty competitive.

Actually, that's incorrect. Kovtun's total score of 266.80 at Euros would only have been good enough for 8th at Worlds, not 5th. Put into perspective, if Kovtun replicated his score from Euros (which is his personal best score) at Worlds, Kovtun would have placed 54.79 points behind first place finisher Yuzuru Hanyu, and 23.92 points behind sixth-place finisher Nathan Chen. Not sure if that's very competitive at all...granted, 266.80 is still higher than what Kolyada managed at Worlds (257.47), but Kolyada's new personal best from WTT is 279.41, which is significantly higher than Kovtun's personal best.

 

[gmyers]

Well, we never seen russian men do 6 quads together with some consistency.
As for PCs, Kovtun gets them all, for example. He is just 6 PCs points behind Javi in SP and 10 in FS. Imagine if he landed his quads consistently and not once a year when stars align?
Where a clean Kolyada would be if he could land 5-6 quads?
Nah, the issue is with jumps really. As Jason Brown shows us, there is no way to close the score gap on PCs only, no matter how well you explore the system.

I think there was a deal that kovtun would get support for doing two quad sps and three quad fs but where's the expansion?!? He shouldn't be supported unless he adds quad flip or loop or puts and becomes six quad skater.

Oh for god's sake, don't start in with the ice dance crap here...just stop it! How many hundreds of times do you have to post the same thing before you get tired of it?

This is one of the biggest stories in figure skating history! The end of the Russian ice dance program. One of the biggest stories ever!!!!!

 

[SnowWhite]

Actually, that's incorrect. Kovtun's total score of 266.80 at Euros would only have been good enough for 8th at Worlds, not 5th. Put into perspective, if Kovtun replicated his score from Euros (which is his personal best score) at Worlds, Kovtun would have placed 54.79 points behind first place finisher Yuzuru Hanyu, and 23.92 points behind sixth-place finisher Nathan Chen. Not sure if that's very competitive at all...granted, 266.80 is still higher than what Kolyada managed at Worlds (257.47), but Kolyada's new personal best from WTT is 279.41, which is significantly higher than Kovtun's personal best.

That is WTT though. The scores count, but they tend to be pretty ... generous. No opinion on the this whole debate atm, just wanted to point that out

 

[evangeline]

That is WTT though. The scores count, but they tend to be pretty ... generous. No opinion on the this whole debate atm, just wanted to point that out

I agree that WTT is totally a cheesefest, but Kolyada skated very well there and I think he definitely would still have scored 270+ with the same performances in a non-cheesy event like Euros or Worlds. Heck, you could subtract 10 points from Kolyada's personal best score at WTT and it would still be higher than Kovtun's personal best.

 

[moriel]

I agree that WTT is totally a cheesefest, but Kolyada skated very well there and I think he definitely would still have scored 270+ with the same performances in a non-cheesy event like Euros or Worlds. Heck, you could subtract 10 points from Kolyada's personal best score at WTT and it would still be higher than Kovtun's personal best.

+ Kolyada, while sometimes he bombs, is still more consistent than Kovtun.
Still he is not a contender unless more quads.

 

[vorravorra]

I agree that WTT is totally a cheesefest, but Kolyada skated very well there and I think he definitely would still have scored 270+ with the same performances in a non-cheesy event like Euros or Worlds. Heck, you could subtract 10 points from Kolyada's personal best score at WTT and it would still be higher than Kovtun's personal best.

Moreover, Kolyada's last season's SB was higher than Kovtun's score at Euros, and that was with two quads vs four. Kovtun seems to lose so many points on other jumps even when he lands quads.

 

[coldblueeyes]

Well, I don't really think we need to discuss a possible battle between Kovtun and Kolyada, because the results are enough on themselves. Also, next season is a different ball game, I doubt the Fed wouldn't send their best to at least guarantee a team medal, since the hardest medal to get will be the men's.

 

[LRK]

Oh for god's sake, don't start in with the ice dance crap here...just stop it! How many hundreds of times do you have to post the same thing before you get tired of it?

That's a rhetorical question, isn't it? gmyers is nothing if not indefatigable....


Meanwhile, just an observation re the general discussion on the thread.

Who are these skaters putting up 6-quad programs on a regular basis? Why is this suddenly the norm?

 

[moriel]

That's a rhetorical question, isn't it? gmyers is nothing if not indefatigable....


Meanwhile, just an observation re the general discussion on the thread.

Who are these skaters putting up 6-quad programs on a regular basis? Why is this suddenly the norm?

Not norm, but there are several skaters who can do 5-6 quads over 2 programs.
Last worlds, we had:

Javi 2+3
Shoma 2+4
Boyang 2+4
Hanyu 2+4
Chen 2+6

Most of those are able to land at least 5 quads in 1 competition with some consistency (more than once in a season, lets say)

 

[LRK]

Not norm, but there are several skaters who can do 5-6 quads over 2 programs.
Last worlds, we had:

Javi 2+3
Shoma 2+4
Boyang 2+4
Hanyu 2+4
Chen 2+6

Most of those are able to land at least 5 quads in 1 competition with some consistency (more than once in a season, lets say)

So 6 quads over two programs then - not 6 quads in the free? Because the conversation seems to me to have been unclear as to this point.