2016-17 State of Russian Men's skating

[moriel]

So 6 quads over two programs then - not 6 quads in the free? Because the conversation seems to me to have been unclear as to this point.

Well, at least i always meant 6 quads over 2 programs really... Because 6 quads in 1 program... Thats far from widespread.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Actually, that's incorrect. Kovtun's total score of 266.80 at Euros would only have been good enough for 8th at Worlds, not 5th. Put into perspective, if Kovtun replicated his score from Euros (which is his personal best score) at Worlds, Kovtun would have placed 54.79 points behind first place finisher Yuzuru Hanyu, and 23.92 points behind sixth-place finisher Nathan Chen. Not sure if that's very competitive at all...granted, 266.80 is still higher than what Kolyada managed at Worlds (257.47), but Kolyada's new personal best from WTT is 279.41, which is significantly higher than Kovtun's personal best.

Oops, my bad... I was looking at the wrong worlds (2016).

And while Kolyada's personal best from WTT is 279.41 and yes, considerably higher than Kovtun's (which would have only been good enough for 8th at this year's Worlds) -- that score would have only been good enough for 7th at Worlds.

 

[silverfoxes]

Who cares about inflated WTT joke scores anyway?

 

[moriel]

Who cares about inflated WTT joke scores anyway?

Actually for top men, they were not sooo far from what they usually get (maybe because there are only so much PCs judges can give them anyways, so cannot really go higher).

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Who cares about inflated WTT joke scores anyway?

LOL, some people, apparently! : I don't pay heed to the scores so much as the performances/placements. Mai's/Wakaba's/Mikhail's scores were crazy high, but they all performed excellent, and the placements were correct (which in WTT is the most important thing anyways).

 

[evangeline]

LOL, some people, apparently! : I don't pay heed to the scores so much as the performances/placements. Mai's/Wakaba's/Mikhail's scores were crazy high, but they all performed excellent, and the placements were correct (which in WTT is the most important thing anyways).

It's ironic that you laugh at WTT "joke scores" and say you don't care about scores in this thread but was previously all up in arms about Chen's WTT scores and ranting about WTT scoring conspiracy theories elsewhere.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

It's ironic that you laugh at WTT "joke scores" and say you don't care about scores in this thread but was previously all up in arms about Chen's WTT scores and ranting about WTT scoring conspiracy theories elsewhere. :rolleyes:

Oh no!!! Emoji fail....don't worry. I got your back

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Moreover, Kolyada's last season's SB was higher than Kovtun's score at Euros, and that was with two quads vs four. Kovtun seems to lose so many points on other jumps even when he lands quads.

His issue is GOE on his other elements. He needs to add more transitions in and out of his elements and that'll bump those up. He's just not a strong spinner and isn't flexible, so I doubt his spins will improve (even though they need to) - some of his positions are just so forced and awkward and a good example of CoP encouraging skaters to look ridiculous in order to just get the levels.

TBF, his only real mistake at EC2017 was doubling the lutz (and not doing a 3-jump combo), but other than that, he did his jumping passes pretty well - particularly his quads in his FS. But he doesn't "complete" his jumps or make them highlights, he just does them because there are 8 jumping passes and it looks so mechanical. He could also turn that final 2A into something a little more difficult (he doesn't use up his repeat jumps either, and could do a 3Z or 3L. If he took a moment to show better control and ease, and did more transitions (and did the 3Z and 3-jump combo ), that 268 would be mid-270s for sure.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It's ironic that you laugh at WTT "joke scores" and say you don't care about scores in this thread but was previously all up in arms about Chen's WTT scores and ranting about WTT scoring conspiracy theories elsewhere.

Note that I said I don't pay attention to the scores as much as the performances. We obviously all care about scores to some extent. If you look at the other thread I also said something to the effect of, regardless of the scores, the placements/points were correct and reflective of the performances, even if the scores were weird.

And it was worth noting that while many of the scores were ridiculously high (especially Chan/Hanyu's SP), Chen wasn't benefiting from that. He had a clean SP and his PCS dropped over a point, whereas everyone else with clean or close-to-clean SPs were getting personal bests, like Chen/Kolyada/Jin - and yes, even Uno who with easier difficulty got personal best PCS over a point higher than the same SP clean at Worlds with a 4-3 .... I call shaaaade. And then I surmised it was because Chen (being Hanyu/Uno's primary rival) was on rival ice -- rival-ice deflation, just like home inflation, can't be proven tangibly -- but everyone seems to think it's plausible that a federation can politic for their skater to have higher marks on home ice, so why is it such an outrageous suggestion that they push for rival skaters to be marked down when they compete there to give their home skaters a better shot.

Although, even with his PCS taking a hit, good on Nathan for still coming 2nd in the SP and 2nd overall. Bet he was like after - well, screw this, dumbing down my difficulty (which was still second only to Jin with the 4F+3T and 4T, mind you) and focusing on other parts of my program like transitions isn't helping my PCS... once I'm fine doing 4Z again, I might as well go back to 2+6 quads, so even if the judges try to be shady and hold me down, the added base value will counteract that.

 

[Tolstoj]

This part isn't accurate No matter

How?

She was coached by Svetlana Panova but they spent a lot of the time in the US and Raf said they helped them on everything.

Maria then said earlier this season that she left Svetlana not because of her but for the poor training conditions

 

[RemyRose]

How?

She was coached by Svetlana Panova but they spent a lot of the time in the US and Raf said they helped them on everything.

Maria then said earlier this season that she left Svetlana not because of her but for the poor training conditions

If I wasn't a fan of Maria, the way the quote below reads is that Rafa was her coach (or apart of her coaching team while she trained/lived in the States as a junior) and then she moved back to Moscow because the training conditions were a mess (at Rafa's rink). Which is why I said it was inaccurate :confused2:

Maria Sotskova for example worked with Rafael team when she was competing with juniors but she moved back in Moscow this season because the training conditions were a mess.

 

[vorravorra]

His issue is GOE on his other elements. He needs to add more transitions in and out of his elements and that'll bump those up. He's just not a strong spinner and isn't flexible, so I doubt his spins will improve (even though they need to) - some of his positions are just so forced and awkward and a good example of CoP encouraging skaters to look ridiculous in order to just get the levels.

TBF, his only real mistake at EC2017 was doubling the lutz (and not doing a 3-jump combo), but other than that, he did his jumping passes pretty well - particularly his quads in his FS. But he doesn't "complete" his jumps or make them highlights, he just does them because there are 8 jumping passes and it looks so mechanical. He could also turn that final 2A into something a little more difficult (he doesn't use up his repeat jumps either, and could do a 3Z or 3L. If he took a moment to show better control and ease, and did more transitions (and did the 3Z and 3-jump combo ), that 268 would be mid-270s for sure.

I think GOE is a factor but I am not sure it's the main problem. Maxim's BV at Euros was way too low for a two-quad program (78.27). Yes, he doubled a 3Lz, but Kolyada's BV at Worlds for a two-quad program (77.47) was virtually the same after losing an entire 3A+3T combo and doubling a 3S, and the difference between 4Lz and 4S only makes up for 3 points of that.
At Euros Maxim's BV was 78.27 + 9.5 GOE = 87.77 TES. At WTT Mikhail's BV was 87.18 (after simplifying two combos) + 10.42 GOE = 97.6 TES. GOE accounts for less than one point difference in TES. Yes, Mikhail fell on the 4Lz, so his average GOE per the rest of the elements is higher, but it does not make up for the difference in BV. Maxim's PCS was 84.50, Mikhail's 87.44. The difference is less than three points. So most of the difference in the final scores (172.27 vs 184.04) is accounted for by the tech content.
At Nationals Maxim's BV was 78.98 for a two-quad program, and that was also considered a good skate that got him into third place after an SP disaster. Improving GOE is a worthwhile goal but he needs to figure out how not to give away basic tech points even in his successful skates.

 

[gmyers]

That's a rhetorical question, isn't it? gmyers is nothing if not indefatigable....


Meanwhile, just an observation re the general discussion on the thread.

Who are these skaters putting up 6-quad programs on a regular basis? Why is this suddenly the norm?

Like I said the status of Russian ice dance is probably one of the biggest stories in fs history

 

[LRK]

Like I said the status of Russian ice dance is probably one of the biggest stories in fs history

I don't care if it is the greatest bit of news since the fall of the Roman Empire - this is the men's thread.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think GOE is a factor but I am not sure it's the main problem. Maxim's BV at Euros was way too low for a two-quad program (78.27). Yes, he doubled a 3Lz, but Kolyada's BV at Worlds for a two-quad program (77.47) was virtually the same after losing an entire 3A+3T combo and doubling a 3S, and the difference between 4Lz and 4S only makes up for 3 points of that.
At Euros Maxim's BV was 78.27 + 9.5 GOE = 87.77 TES. At WTT Mikhail's BV was 87.18 (after simplifying two combos) + 10.42 GOE = 97.6 TES. GOE accounts for less than one point difference in TES. Yes, Mikhail fell on the 4Lz, so his average GOE per the rest of the elements is higher, but it does not make up for the difference in BV. Maxim's PCS was 84.50, Mikhail's 87.44. The difference is less than three points. So most of the difference in the final scores (172.27 vs 184.04) is accounted for by the tech content.
At Nationals Maxim's BV was 78.98 for a two-quad program, and that was also considered a good skate that got him into third place after an SP disaster. Improving GOE is a worthwhile goal but he needs to figure out how not to give away basic tech points even in his successful skates.

Well Maxim's main points losses were the lutz (loss of 3.9 points BV, and leaving out a 3-jump combo, which could have been a triple - e.g. a 2A+3T+2T, or at least a double loop, 1.8-4.1 points higher BV). Also, while Kolyada missed the BV of a 3A+3T, he got 13.6 points BV for his 4Z attempt, and it still scored higher than a clean 3Z.

I agree that Maxim gives up points needlessly (especially when he pops -- which he seems to have gotten more a handle on now) and needs to figure out a layout that maximizes (no pun intended) his points. At least do your 3-jump combo and turn that 2A into something harder. He could also add a 3rd quad back in (he's done so in the past). He needs to challenge himself much more -- adding transitions after his triples isn't hard (he's done transitions out of quads before); he (and whoever is choreographing his programs) needs to step it up if he wants to make the Olympic team, because the Russian fed is fickle (even if he is one of their favourites). Next year, he has gotta lose the shticks and get back to the quality of skating he had when he won the JGPF and two GP golds.

 

[Tutto]

Well Maxim's main points losses were the lutz (loss of 3.9 points BV, and leaving out a 3-jump combo, which could have been a triple - e.g. a 2A+3T+2T, or at least a double loop, 1.8-4.1 points higher BV). Also, while Kolyada missed the BV of a 3A+3T, he got 13.6 points BV for his 4Z attempt, and it still scored higher than a clean 3Z.

I agree that Maxim gives up points needlessly (especially when he pops -- which he seems to have gotten more a handle on now) and needs to figure out a layout that maximizes (no pun intended) his points. At least do your 3-jump combo and turn that 2A into something harder. He could also add a 3rd quad back in (he's done so in the past). He needs to challenge himself much more -- adding transitions after his triples isn't hard (he's done transitions out of quads before); he (and whoever is choreographing his programs) needs to step it up if he wants to make the Olympic team, because the Russian fed is fickle (even if he is one of their favourites). Next year, he has gotta lose the shticks and get back to the quality of skating he had when he won the JGPF and two GP golds.

TBH I don't think Maxim ever had much quality in his skating, I didn't follow him as a junior but his senior GP golds he won due to landing three quads in the LP at the time when it was still a novelty + other skaters bombed. But 3 quads in the long is yesterday's news and he is not even going for three anymore. His spins, positions, extensions are not good and not seem to be improving. But what kills me most is his total lack of any joy of skating, enthusiasm & commitment.
I don't know how long he will continue to be propped by RusFed but I guess even all mighty pull of TSKA might not be enough if he does not show any improvement next season. His chances for the team event I'd already consider as nil. Losing his team the gold at WTT might have been the last straw...

 

[coldblueeyes]

I wouldn't say his chances of making the team event are nil. They are not good, that's for sure, but it's not like Russia has that many guys to send - although he's not doing himself any favors with those low scores, that's for sure.

 

[gmyers]

Kovtun does a triple salchow double toe combo! He's not serious

 

[vorravorra]

Kovtun does a triple salchow double toe combo! He's not serious

At least he did a 3Lz+1Lo<+3S combo at Nationals (in addition to the above, not instead). But then he popped a loop. It's always something. At Euros and at WTT he did 3S+2T and 2A+2T. Both of those times he had a problem with the lutz so that's probably why no combo there. He's been training 4Lz since January but I don't understand why that's screwing up his triple. It's like he gets mixed up about how many rotations he is supposed to do. Considering that he has no flip, losing the triple lutz for a quad that may never happen is not something he can afford. To say nothing of the fact that the lack of a third quad is hardly his most pressing problem.

 

[Ice Dance]

It's very common for training a quad to mess with one's timing on a triple, though. What is there to understand?

Kovtun made it to Worlds. Mura hasn't made it for two years. Han Yan didn't make it out of the SP last season. Daniel Samohin crashed & burned in all but two competitions this season. Denis Ten finished in 16th place at Worlds. Adam Rippon's GPF score would have left him 17th. Jason Brown's NHK Trophy score would have left him 19th. Boyang Jin's SA score would have left him 12th. Men's skating right now is bring it or go home. Samarin is consistent, and Aliev gets the second mark. A fall on a quad lutz is worth plenty of points. I have to hand it to Maxim that he's making the effort to stay relevant. I haven't any faith in his jump technique or the likelihood that he will rotate. But props for guts nonetheless.