Flutz issue

[Skye]

How about this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNW000UYGaI&feature=related

The camera angle can be very deceiving and in this link you can't really see Kim's edge the moment she picks her toe. Check the ESPN broadcast where it shows that she does have a true flip.

How do you decide whether this flutz is worse than that flutz? Does it depend on the duration that a skater keep the wrong edge or the inclination of the edges? Have you ever measured Asada's blade inclination? Has Asada ever inclined her blades inward more than Zhang?

The original poster asked which flutz is the worst and IN MY OPINION, Asada's flutz is very bad because she rolls over into a deep inside edge and has almost a 1/4 revolution of pre-rotation. Flips and lutzes are harder is because they have minimum pre-rotation and that is why they are rewarded with higher points. In the case of Zhang, I think she could and should improve her control of edge as she gains more power and speed in the future.

 

[tiara]

The camera angle can be very deceiving and in this link you can't really see Kim's edge the moment she picks her toe.

However, I can clearly see that Yuna' left leg is bent like 〈 shape the moment she picks her toe. (viewed from the back) Her left leg from the thigh to the shin actually slightly bend inward like ／shape.(viewed from the back) That is good for a true flip. But、at her ankle down, she bends her foot quite sharply on the opposite direction like ＼ shape. She is so cunning that the slight inward inclination of the upper parts of her left leg helps judges to think Yuna's flip is a true one. But、she actually bends her blades the other way. You have to see those kinds of things.

Check the ESPN broadcast where it shows that she does have a true flip.

I can not find that one.

The original poster asked which flutz is the worst and IN MY OPINION, Asada's flutz is very bad because she rolls over into a deep inside edge

I am asking many times how deep Asada's inside edge is. What degrees?

and has almost a 1/4 revolution of pre-rotation.

Everybody does such a pre-rotation.

I categorize Nakano's lutz as "Questionable". Because she keeps the outside edge of her left foot until she picks her toe. However、from the moment she picks her toe to the moment she actually takes off, she gradually changes her edges from the outside to the inside. So far, she has been successful for not receiving 'e' marks. Probably because her lutz is categorized as "not so obvious". If so、Asada should learn Nakano's way of cheating or at least evading 'e' marks.

 

[Mafke]

She is so cunning that the slight inward inclination of the upper parts of her left leg helps judges to think Yuna's flip is a true one.
:

Tiara, I'm begging you. Give. This. Up.

Kim has a true flip. Any tendency toward the flat (or even outside edge) is so slight and so late relative to the jump that it doesn't matter. The same way, a switch to the flat (or inside edge) on a lutz done to the same degree (and as late before takeoff) doesn't matter. And in case of doubt, the technical caller is supposed to rule in favor of the skater.

It's only an easily visible switch to the wrong edge well before takeoff (like Zhang's flutz or Meier's lip) that matters in this case and Kim does. not. do. that.

Accept it and move on.

 

[ksharony]

To tiara

Arakawa commented on Yuna's clean jump in Asahi TV broadcasting.
She mentioned that Yuna had real flip and lutz.
Do you have an accurate angle than Arakawa's??

Yuna never will have 'e'marks because she jumps true flip.
I think you have to be much concerned about Mao's flutz.

I read Your comment on Yuna in FSU.
Don't libel against her.

 

[gio]

I can agree with Chen and Ito. However, I think of Kwan,Slutskaya and Harding as flutzers and Kerrigan as a lipper. I do not know anything about Butyskaya and Malinina.

Slutskaya and Kwan sometimes did their lutzes from the flat edge. But as we have seen from the videos gkelly has posted, they were also able to do real lutzes from a good outside edge.
Harding lutz was just amazing, as well of Malinina and Butyrskaya.

I'd like to remember also the great 3lutzes Biellman and Manley did.

 

[tiara]

Kim has a true flip. Any tendency toward the flat (or even outside edge) is so slight and so late relative to the jump that it doesn't matter. The same way, a switch to the flat (or inside edge) on a lutz done to the same degree (and as late before takeoff) doesn't matter.

Are you saying that as long as a skater does not use the wrong edge before take-off and actually use the wrong edge only at the moment of take-off, the skater is allowed to use the wrong edge? That is a very strange interpretation of the rule. Is that your opinion or ISU's interpretation? If that is the ISU's interpretation、ISU actually does not encourage skaters to learn the proper use of edges and just encourages skaters to cheat. Any tendency toward the wrong edge at the moment of take-off, even slight one, should be identified and receive 'e' marks accordingly. That is the main point of introducing the rule. You can not add your subjective opinions to the rule like "If it is a slight use of the wrong edge, it is OK as long as it is done by Yuna."

And in case of doubt, the technical caller is supposed to rule in favor of the skater.

So far, technical speciarists have not been so consistent、sometimes very strict and sometimes not. That is the problem. Edge judgement requires very subtle observation. You can not always rely on human being's naked eyes for the right judgement.

It's only an easily visible switch to the wrong edge well before takeoff (like Zhang's flutz or Meier's lip) that matters in this case and Kim does. not. do. that.

Such a statement only encourages skaters to cheat and deceive judges and get away with it.

 

[Mafke]

Are you saying that as long as a skater does not use the wrong edge before take-off and actually use the wrong edge only at the moment of take-off, the skater is allowed to use the wrong edge?

Essentially, yes. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

 

[tiara]

Arakawa commented on Yuna's clean jump in Asahi TV broadcasting. She mentioned that Yuna had real flip and lutz. Do you have an accurate angle than Arakawa's??

Do not you know that Arakawa is also a typical lipper herself. Naturally Arakawa's comments toward another lipper become gentle and nothing negative. Or she did not check Yuna's lips in slow motion videos. If you do not, nobody can detect Yuna's error. Because her movement is very fast, especially in her lips.

Yuna never will have 'e'marks because she jumps true flip.

No, she does not get 'e' marks because her movement is so fast and she is so skillful to conceal her error from judges' eyes.

I read Your comment on Yuna in FSU. Don't libel against her.

To point out with evidence videos that Yuna is a typical lipper is not deemed as libel. I hope this board does not shut down this topic like FSU did.

 

[Lumi]

tiara, shut up already. Accept that Mao's "lutz" sucks. It is not Yuna's problem that Mao dosen't have anything close to lutz. Atleast you can argue if Yuna's flip is flip or lip, with Mao, it is just so obvious...

 

[kandidy]

This debate is getting hotter day by day.
Call for technical helpers!!
Where are you Joe? mathman?

 

[cosmos]

She is so cunning that the slight inward inclination of the upper parts of her left leg helps judges to think Yuna's flip is a true one.

I can't believe this!!!!!

This remark is not tolerable!!

Shame yourself.

 

[Skye]

Why the question of who has the worst flutz turns into a Yu-Na bash I have no idea. I sincerely wonder whether tiara is Mao's fan or her worst enemy. Thanks to someone pointing out what happened at FSU, at least I know better than to waste any more of my time on this.

 

[Mafke]

I sincerely wonder whether tiara is Mao's fan or her worst enemy.

I vote for 'worst enemy'. I'm sure that Asada (who's behavior has always been above reproach) would ask tiara to shut up and stop shaming her.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I have to share this incident with you. When I was in Skate Canada, and watching Kevin v.d. Perren, he included in his LP two toe pick jumps.

I could not tell which was supposed to be a Flip and which was supposed to be a Lutz except for the brief lean at take off, and that was a guess.

He had no discernable edge at take off as he took off on the Flat! BTW, I don't think Kevin does this all the time.

How serious is a Flatz compared to a Flutz or Lip?

I think this is what some people see with regards to Kwan and Slutskaya on occasion. There are many skaters that take off on the Flatz and I think it is a nerve reaction to the intended jump. However, when I see skaters doing Flutzes and Lips, competition after competion, and year after year, well I conclude that they can not do the jump ever and therefore should not be credited for a jump they can not do. It goes beyond a penalty.

Joe

 

[kandidy]

I hope we could settle this cat fight. However, I can't deny that I am quite enjoyed watching the debates.

 

[hockeyfan228]

Just a gentle reminder that the "Ignore" list doesn't suppress quotes of the "Ignored' in other people's posts.

 

[moojja]

I think this is what some people see with regards to Kwan and Slutskaya on occasion. There are many skaters that take off on the Flatz and I think it is a nerve reaction to the intended jump. However, when I see skaters doing Flutzes and Lips, competition after competion, and year after year, well I conclude that they can not do the jump ever and therefore should not be credited for a jump they can not do. It goes beyond a penalty.
Joe

Yes, you have a point. But in in order to judge that, all the judges would have to watch the programs the skaters did before this competition. Or the judges have to rely on the skater's reputation when it comes to lips/flutzs. I say skaters should be penalties for the jumps they actually do in the competition. Reputation shouldn't play a part. If a skater usually have a good flip, but this competition, they lipped a little, give them negative GOE or vice versa.

 

[Mathman]

Actually, it is kind of strange the way the rules are written this year.

The rules for 2007-2008 say that the technical specialist is supposed to call a "wrong edge" in the case of "obvious" violation.

If the offense is not "obvious," then it is up to the individual judges to decide what the GOE penalty should be, and to balance it out with other positive aspects of the jump.

As I understand it, the national federations, when they held their judges' training sessions, etc., were unclear on what "obvious" meant. So the ISU offered a "clarification" that said, "obvious" means that the three members of the technical panel must all agree by naked eye real time observation, and without instant replay, slow motion, etc.

So, yes, the ISU is sending the message that a take-off from the flat, or a slight wobble onto the wrong edge at the last moment, is -- well, not OK (the judges are still supposed to take it into account in the GOE -- but at least will not receive the "e" designation and a mandatory negative GOE.

IMHO, if the judges are conscientious they should be able to do their jobs whether the tech specialist makes the call or not.

 

[tiara]

Why the question of who has the worst flutz turns into a Yu-Na bash I have no idea.

Because the lip issue is the other side of the coin. This is not Yuna bashing. I actually admire Yuna's basic skating skills. However, I am just trying to point out and correct the popular misconception that Yuna's flips are true ones.

Thanks to someone pointing out what happened at FSU, at least I know better than to waste any more of my time on this.

You have already reacted to my posting. I would not say it is a waste of time.

I vote for 'worst enemy'. I'm sure that Asada (who's behavior has always been above reproach) would ask tiara to shut up and stop shaming her.

You have already admitted that Yuna is a last minute wrong-edge user. As long as Yuna uses the wrong edge even last minute, Yuna's flips can not be considered as true ones. Asada might gloat over my revelation of Yuna's hidden error.

I could not tell which was supposed to be a Flip and which was supposed to be a Lutz except for the brief lean at take off, and that was a guess.

The majority of flutzers and lippers excute both jumps the exact same way except a half turn before the flip.

He had no discernable edge at take off as he took off on the Flat! BTW, I don't think Kevin does this all the time.

Yagudin does the same thing.

How serious is a Flatz compared to a Flutz or Lip?

Some skaters are so good in the inside take-off whereas the others are good in the outside or flat take-off. There are more than one preference in skater's choice of take-offs.

There are many skaters that take off on the Flatz and I think it is a nerve reaction to the intended jump. However, when I see skaters doing Flutzes and Lips, competition after competion, and year after year, well I conclude that they can not do the jump ever and therefore should not be credited for a jump they can not do. It goes beyond a penalty.

As long as judging can be done fairly, you can introduce any strict rule whatsoever. However, in reality you can not expect that. There are a lot of gray areas in edge judgement which involves human errors, bias and so on.

 

[bekalc]

The majority of flutzers and lippers excute both jumps the exact same way except a half turn before the flip.

Except Yu-na doesn't. Yu-na's lutz is discernably different from her flip.