Figure Skating and Classical Ballet

[DizzyFrenchie]

What a nice thread!
I had of course Sasha Cohen in mind because she was not literally balletic but still she had it. I didn't know this Dorothy Hamill Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy, it's really the variation, that's a nice holiday treat for family time with young children too. Nor John Curry, I think I will love him even more. Alina Zagitova had an energy, freshness and cheerfulness quite fitting to Kitri and I still love it but John Curry's program is simply beautiful.
I found that Misha Kolyada has a great many tidbits of the ballet, that they are very well done and give an overall strong evocation but for me as a whole it is not the ballet, it is more a great tribute, I don't know how to say it. He's still a skater who's skating and while skating he does many very good ballet moves, mostly with upper body.
Anna Shcherbakova doesn't skate to ballet music but her port-de-bras is still the most literally balletic I know.
Years ago I believed Kamila Valieva would skate a bit this way but no.
Dawn825 I see what you mean (or maybe I'm mistaken) and I'd agree that Alyona has a sort of organic (I don't mean innate, I don't know) balletic basis but in my opinion her language is more modern-jazz than classical or neo-classical ballet.
I would say the same about Yuzuru Hanyu. Without ballet classes he caught incredibly well the basis and created his own dancing on ice language.
I really didn't get it about Nathan Chen, MrRice. I know he's taken ballet classes but I've never seen anything balletic, or ballet-based, in any of his skates, yet I had to watch several times and partly in slowdown several of his last skates. Could you tell where you found balletic moves or postures?
But there we may reach the core of the question. For me it's not balletic posture vs knee bend. My (mere) impression is that a balletic posture will always need good knee bend. It's when a skater insists a lot on this knee bend that we get a more "skating" and less "balletic" style, like Patrick Chan or Jason Brown, it's another aesthetics. When there's a lack of knee bend like with Nathan Chen I don't think any balletic, or balletic-based style can be achieved. Flexibility helps but I really don't think a skater needs great flexibility to be balletic, ballet dancers used to be less flexible in old times and still great.

 

[Thrashergurl]

Those videos remind me of why I’d always cringe when Sasha landed her jumps. They always said she was beautiful to watch from the waist up and never to look at her feet. Those landings……

 

[gkelly]

What makes the definition of a good ballet program on ice?

How faithfully it recreates balletic movement qualities, or specific choreography from the original ballet?

Or how well it interprets the concept of the story/music/theme/character of a ballet through the medium of skating without any attempt to imitate stage ballet? Then determine how "good" it is in terms of the quality of the skating as skating, and the quality of use of skating to interpret the concept.

I think Swan Lake or The Dying Swan is a good case study because skaters can imitate swans gliding on water directly through skating better than by imitating ballerinas imitating swans through bourrees -- which are less fluid on ice than just plain skating.

Also, is good posture in skating necessarily balletic posture?

Is Katherine Healy the most authentic example of a ballerina on ice?

 

[Alex Fedorov]

I'm curios though what do you think in general about this trend when female skaters try to look airy and fragile on ice? I think this question is on topic because such image is clearly ballet-inspired.

In general, I like this trend, because it allows you to create programs with a strong emotional response. But this is a rather difficult path, and it is not suitable for every skater. It takes a special talent to make the most difficult elements look natural, as if they are being performed on their own. In the old Soviet cartoon "The Nutcracker", during a waltz of flowers, the dancers for a split second turned into weightless little leaves, spinning rapidly under the influence of a gust of wind. I can regard this visual image as a kind of ideal.

On the other hand, this approach is contraindicated for some skaters. For example, it is difficult for me to imagine Sasha Trusova in such an image. Of course, there are different ballets - maybe "Tarantella" from the ballet "Anyuta" performed by Sasha would be successful.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

Anna Shcherbakova doesn't skate to ballet music but her port-de-bras is still the most literally balletic I know.

I think that Shcherbakova's performances are real ballet, but with the use of figure skating means. However, it is difficult for me to speak impartially about Anna. And she has a strange resemblance to the young Polina Semionova

 

[Dawn825]

Anna Shcherbakova doesn't skate to ballet music but her port-de-bras is still the most literally balletic I know.
Years ago I believed Kamila Valieva would skate a bit this way but no.
Dawn825 I see what you mean (or maybe I'm mistaken) and I'd agree that Alyona has a sort of organic (I don't mean innate, I don't know) balletic basis but in my opinion her language is more modern-jazz than classical or neo-classical ballet.

With all due respect, this comparison kills me. Don't read this post if you're a die-hard Anna fan because I'm really not looking to fight with anyone. This is just my analysis of balletic movement vs. not.

Kostornaia, while not very flexible, has great penche technique. She starts with her knee turned out and her free foot tucked behind her calf. Her arms are deliberately placed, staying at 180 degrees the whole time. She extends her leg while lowering her back slowly, keeping her chest up. Going up and going down, she is as still and controlled as can be.

https://media.giphy.com/media/90h592A2yW3HCa3OJD/giphy.gif

Scherbakova starts with one knee tucked next to the other, not turned out. She lowers her back completely to hip level before even starting to extend her leg. She swings her free leg up by the heel, so there is zero turnout and zero control. She pushes bent arms and wrists in a swimming motion, pulling up her head, to keep from falling over from the leg swing and to get herself back up.

https://media.giphy.com/media/Q7H76xAxWZErovSbzB/giphy.gif

A spiral is only one move obviously, but to me these two are the perfect examples of the difference between Kostornaia's skating and Scherbakova's, and why one is balletic and one is not.
Kostornaia's back is always straight, her shoulders are always down, hers knees are always turned out, her feet are always pointed. Her movements are always deliberate, composed, and beautiful. These are core balletic qualities.
Scherbakova has lovely facial expressions, projection, and determination. But her back is often piked, her legs and feet are often turned in, her wrists are often flexed. She never places or lifts herself into a position, there is always some wild swinging or pushing. These are not balletic qualities. Yes her arms are softer than Sakamoto or Trusova. But definitely not as poised as Kostornaia or Kim.

Poise and posture are the most critical aspect of ballet interpretation - my original point. They're also very transferable skills, which is why Aliona looks good doing jazz and contemporary styles too.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

With all due respect, this comparison kills me. Don't read this post if you're a die-hard Anna fan because I'm really not looking to fight with anyone. This is just my analysis of balletic movement vs. not.

Kostornaia, while not very flexible, has great penche technique. She starts with her knee turned out and her free foot tucked behind her calf. Her arms are deliberately placed, staying at 180 degrees the whole time. She extends her leg while lowering her back slowly, keeping her chest up. Going up and going down, she is as still and controlled as can be.

https://media.giphy.com/media/90h592A2yW3HCa3OJD/giphy.gif

Scherbakova starts with one knee tucked next to the other, not turned out. She lowers her back completely to hip level before even starting to extend her leg. She swings her free leg up by the heel, so there is zero turnout and zero control. She pushes bent arms and wrists in a swimming motion, pulling up her head, to keep from falling over from the leg swing and to get herself back up.

https://media.giphy.com/media/Q7H76xAxWZErovSbzB/giphy.gif

A spiral is only one move obviously, but to me these two are the perfect examples of the difference between Kostornaia's skating and Scherbakova's, and why one is balletic and one is not.
Kostornaia's back is always straight, her shoulders are always down, hers knees are always turned out, her feet are always pointed. Her movements are always deliberate, composed, and beautiful. These are core balletic qualities.
Scherbakova has lovely facial expressions, projection, and determination. But her back is often piked, her legs and feet are often turned in, her wrists are often flexed. She never places or lifts herself into a position, there is always some wild swinging or pushing. These are not balletic qualities. Yes her arms are softer than Sakamoto or Trusova. But definitely not as poised as Kostornaia or Kim.

Poise and posture are the most critical aspect of ballet interpretation - my original point. They're also very transferable skills, which is why Aliona looks good doing jazz and contemporary styles too.

I'm not a die-hard Shcherbakova fan and I mentioned her port-de-bras, not her legs and her skates which are problematic in a skating way too. I must say I do love her whole upper body movements but of course when she struggles with her skates it gets stiffer. This is probably why Daniil Gleikhengauz doesn't give her classical ballet programs while he's really very good there and I'm sure he would like. He developed for her, year after year an unique style enhancing her best qualities.

I wholeheartedly agree with you about Alyona's qualities and I really like your expression of "core balletic qualities", it's spot on. Modern-jazz do use these bases and she wouldn't be half so good there without her perfect glide, postures, as you say her turnout though I had missed it, how could I? What I meant is that she's not in the classical or neoclassical language, I don't know if she would wish to go there, but still in a language needing these "core balletic qualities" though in some ballet schools they have children start modern-jazz without a strong ballet schooling, usually to poor results. And she's a great interpreter in all her moves.

@Alex Fedorov thank you for reminding me Polina Semyonova!

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

What makes the definition of a good ballet program on ice?

How faithfully it recreates balletic movement qualities, or specific choreography from the original ballet?

Or how well it interprets the concept of the story/music/theme/character of a ballet through the medium of skating without any attempt to imitate stage ballet? Then determine how "good" it is in terms of the quality of the skating as skating, and the quality of use of skating to interpret the concept.

I think Swan Lake or The Dying Swan is a good case study because skaters can imitate swans gliding on water directly through skating better than by imitating ballerinas imitating swans through bourrees -- which are less fluid on ice than just plain skating.

Also, is good posture in skating necessarily balletic posture?

Is Katherine Healy the most authentic example of a ballerina on ice?

Well it really depends on what one call a ballet program. It can be a skating-style program on a ballet music like in Anna K's example with the Sugar Plum Fairy variation by Maria Sotskova, it's skating not ballet and it's beautiful.
Or it can be trying to emulate or even imitate the ballet version. Or reinterpret in a skating way what the ballet tries to emulate, as you say.
That's a versatility in figure skating which doesn't exist in ballet, a program is meant for a particular skater to suit his qualities (though initially many a ballet variation had this purpose) with very diverse styles or mixes (it can become terribly messy) and which is more and more accessible thanks to ice and skates quality and better training.
About gliding swans there was a video on Youtube showing Yuzuru, Jason and Junwhan doing their basic exercises together at the 4CC 2020 practice ring, it was a swanly (?) wonder. Yet just exercises. Like some musicians manage to make their warming exercises beautiful. I'm so sorry it was removed.
And about emulating a flower, it's not with the Waltz of Flowers, not classical ballet language either (of course one can note his back, his turnout...), but Yuzuru can very well emulate a cherry bloom taken in the wind, flying in it, falling, whirling, getting taken up again, losing its petals... with the speed mimicking the wind.

This is somehow the aim of part of ballet, and of many types of dances in the world.

Are not there many good postures in figure skating? Precisely because of its versatility?
And I didn't know Katherine Healy, thank you!

 

[Alex Fedorov]

With all due respect, this comparison kills me. Don't read this post if you're a die-hard Anna fan because I'm really not looking to fight with anyone. This is just my analysis of balletic movement vs. not.

A little earlier in this thread, Gkelly asked very important questions, to which I can answer this way: for ballet on ice to appear, the skater should strive not to "imitate" stage ballet movements, but to interpret the story in such a way that would give the audience an impression close to to that which is characteristic of a good theatrical performance.

Of course, this does not mean that skaters need to completely abandon stage movements, it is just that they should not be absolutized on the ice. In any case, when I watch Anna's performances, I get a complete "theatrical" impression.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

For me, out of the current crop of Russian girls Kseniia Sinitsyna is the most 'balletic'-looking from head to toe, in terms of body position and placement of legs and arms. I don't think she is the best in terms of skating skills as she lacks power, but stylistically she is more refined and judicious in utilising different dynamics of movement than most of the Tutberidze camp.
Kostornaia's free leg position in footwork is a bit messy and she is not the most musical. Scherbakova has better musicality and nice port de bras but as others mentioned, from the waist down is where the resemblance ends.
I think in general, there are more ice dancers capable of balletic movement than singles skaters, male or female. (Not all ice dancers though, and not that balletic movement makes one necessarily a superior skater).

Of course, here I'm referring more to skaters having a balletic form in a technical sense, rather than theatrical. On stage, dance disciplines tend to cross-pollinate and if it's not a Petipa classic, chances are there is usually some artistic deviation from academic correctness (Fokine ballets are a good old example).

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

For me, out of the current crop of Russian girls Kseniia Sinitsyna is the most 'balletic'-looking from head to toe, in terms of body position and placement of legs and arms. I don't think she is the best in terms of skating skills as she lacks power, but stylistically she is more refined and judicious in utilising different dynamics of movement than most of the Tutberidze camp.
Kostornaia's free leg position in footwork is a bit messy and she is not the most musical. Scherbakova has better musicality and nice port de bras but as others mentioned, from the waist down is where the resemblance ends.
I think in general, there are more ice dancers capable of balletic movement than singles skaters, male or female. (Not all ice dancers though, and not that balletic movement makes one necessarily a superior skater).

Of course, here I'm referring more to skaters having a balletic form in a technical sense, rather than theatrical. On stage, dance disciplines tend to cross-pollinate and if it's not a Petipa classic, chances are there is usually some artistic deviation from academic correctness (Fokine ballets are a good old example).

The first part of Alina's Cleopatra program was an example of a Fokine-inspired program but like with Misha Kolyada's Nutcracker, it was more a number of Fokine moves inserted in the skate than a real emulation of the ballet on ice. Later on the program she had street dance which is more organic to her and is also a dance style usually performed on floor, but out of the domain of the "balletic core" dance styles.





There's also Plushenko's Tribute to Nijinsky of course.

I like very much your expression "cross-pollinate"!

 

[Alex Fedorov]

Yesterday was published a large interview with Artemiy Belyakov, the Bolshoi Theater premier.

https://www.sports.ru/tribuna/blogs/barbariannose/2995285.html

There are some interesting skating passages in this interview. Here is one of them:

Q: This season, two Russian sports pairs have staged programs with music from Swan Lake. One, by Pavlyuchenko-Khodykin, I really like it, there is both a thought and its own elements. The second, at Boykova-Kozlovsky, is incomprehensible to me, it's empty inside. If you remove five or six hand waves, change costumes, turn on other music from the ceiling at the same pace, the choreography will not even flinch.
A: I have not watched these programs, I may seem like a snob, but this problem also applies to ballet, I understand what you mean. I'm not talking about Swan Lake, but about a variety of modern productions: you can remove the music, put on another, and nothing will change, this does not quite characterize the dance. And this is ballet, where, as in the form of art, initially the choreographic text is in the first place, and not how the dance is performed, we have no sport. And I repeat, often, even in ballet, the choreography does not correspond to either the music or the declared image, so this is probably even more common in figure skating. A performance is a difficult job, so when some kind of choreography is born that fits precisely and only with this music, it is a great rarity.
...
By the way, as a choreographer, it always hurts me how mercilessly all the music is shredded in figure skating.

Q: Is it rather disgusting for you or are you jealous of the opportunity?
A: I am definitely horrified. From a sports point of view, this applied application of music is absolutely normal. Here the music is secondary, it helps to present a set of elements in an advantageous way. I am always surprised, by the way, why in many programs difficult jumps are put in place when the music does not help the skater. Conventionally, there is a pause and it becomes scary, you have approached an accent that even simply causes awe in music, or vice versa, there is silence and in this silence you can hear the eerie scraping of the skate's blade on the ice before pushing it off, such a tearing "hhrrrshshshchshch." This is very difficult for a performer, and the body has to jump by itself, and the music also hits him on the nerves. I would shift quads in many programs.

 

[LutzDance]

I’m a little confused by the title, what does it mean by balletic postures versus deep knees? They are not mutually exclusive? As Flying Feijoa said, foundational moves in ballet such as pliés relie on knee actions, and the ability to coordinate lower and upper body movements is a quality that I value both in skating and in dance.

Now, as to what are the core components of “ballet postures”, I think everything can be traced back to two things: turn out and extension (note that I’m talking about classical ballet here, as it’s what people have in mind when they come across the word “ballet”). Ballet is founded on the principle of creating open, straight, and projecting lines. This principle is manifested in pointed toes, straightened free leg (and skating leg if you’re holding a position), turn out from the hips, open shoulders and chest, arm lines that flow from the finger tips of one hand to those of another, etc. A popular misconception is to equate flexibility with balletic quality, but imo you really only need a moderate amount of flexibility to be balletic on ice. For example, a 90-degree spiral with straight skating leg, turned out free leg, squared hips and upper body is infinitely more balletic than an over-the-ear spiral with twisted torso and bent knees. Another example, a skater who can do a perfect Bielmann but has broken wrist lines and lacks toe points is also not balletic.

And built on these foundational postures is interpretation, where the dancer/skater brings life into a series of poses and connecting steps by rhythmic precision, musical phrasing, and congruous body language. Whether one moves in a way that’s gentle and fairy like, or fiery and energetic, should be entirely context-dependent, and if a skater moves in a similar manner in programs/music with contrasting styles, I’d think they don’t understand the essence of ballet and dance in general. And this brings out another misconception where generic loveliness/pleasantness is lauded as being balletic. It’s not - you have to move in a specific way and have sufficient understanding of your material to earn that label.

John Curry is forever the epitome of balletic skater for me. He just had everything - the lines, the musicality, the vision. Tatsuki Machida strikes me as having distinct and coherent body language as well as superb musicality in his farewell skates. Mikhail Kolyada has good leg lines and moves in an organic manner, but I really find the choreography of this Nutcracker SP to be more pantomime than ballet. Nathan Chen turned me from being just a ballet fan to also a skating fan with his articulate toe points, effortless turn out, beautiful extension in the free leg, attention to the finger tips, and interpretative prowess. His Le Corsaire program, along with Davis/White’s Giselle SD and Kana/Dai’s La Bayadère FD are what I consider the Petipa masterpieces reimagined by Zueva, capturing the agility of petit allegro, the liveliness of the villagers’ dance, and the partnership in a classical pas de deux respectively. Those programs are also good demonstrations of utilization of balletic poses/steps, where they are connected to the rest of choreography in an organic manner rather than randomly inserted into a program that would be otherwise stylistically non-distinct.

 

[bubblecherry]

What an interesting thread to read! So many insightful posts here. I’ll say, I never did ballet, however, I was a competitive gymnast for many years in my childhood and we learned and trained some fundamentals from ballet somewhat often. I don’t have the knowledge or language to expand as much as others, but personally good posture stands out more to me. I think good posture and positioning would improve any program, or any skater in general.

Op, I think you may enjoy this young, developing skater

Isabeau LEVITO USA | WOMEN FREE SKATING | Linz 2021 #JGPFigure

To license ISU footage: https://bit.ly/3M7bcaF Women Free Skate Start List Visit https://isu.org/JuniorGrandPrix for more information on the ISU Junior Grand...

youtu.be

 

[Anna K.]

I’m a little confused by the title, what does it mean by balletic postures versus deep knees? They are not mutually exclusive? As Flying Feijoa said, foundational moves in ballet such as pliés relie on knee actions, and the ability to coordinate lower and upper body movements is a quality that I value both in skating and in dance.

Now, as to what are the core components of “ballet postures”, I think everything can be traced back to two things: turn out and extension (note that I’m talking about classical ballet here, as it’s what people have in mind when they come across the word “ballet”). Ballet is founded on the principle of creating open, straight, and projecting lines. This principle is manifested in pointed toes, straightened free leg (and skating leg if you’re holding a position), turn out from the hips, open shoulders and chest, arm lines that flow from the finger tips of one hand to those of another, etc. A popular misconception is to equate flexibility with balletic quality, but imo you really only need a moderate amount of flexibility to be balletic on ice. For example, a 90-degree spiral with straight skating leg, turned out free leg, squared hips and upper body is infinitely more balletic than an over-the-ear spiral with twisted torso and bent knees. Another example, a skater who can do a perfect Bielmann but has broken wrist lines and lacks toe points is also not balletic.

And built on these foundational postures is interpretation, where the dancer/skater brings life into a series of poses and connecting steps by rhythmic precision, musical phrasing, and congruous body language. Whether one moves in a way that’s gentle and fairy like, or fiery and energetic, should be entirely context-dependent, and if a skater moves in a similar manner in programs/music with contrasting styles, I’d think they don’t understand the essence of ballet and dance in general. And this brings out another misconception where generic loveliness/pleasantness is lauded as being balletic. It’s not - you have to move in a specific way and have sufficient understanding of your material to earn that label.

John Curry is forever the epitome of balletic skater for me. He just had everything - the lines, the musicality, the vision. Tatsuki Machida strikes me as having distinct and coherent body language as well as superb musicality in his farewell skates. Mikhail Kolyada has good leg lines and moves in an organic manner, but I really find the choreography of this Nutcracker SP to be more pantomime than ballet. Nathan Chen turned me from being just a ballet fan to also a skating fan with his articulate toe points, effortless turn out, beautiful extension in the free leg, attention to the finger tips, and interpretative prowess. His Le Corsaire program, along with Davis/White’s Giselle SD and Kana/Dai’s La Bayadère FD are what I consider the Petipa masterpieces reimagined by Zueva, capturing the agility of petit allegro, the liveliness of the villagers’ dance, and the partnership in a classical pas de deux respectively. Those programs are also good demonstrations of utilization of balletic poses/steps, where they are connected to the rest of choreography in an organic manner rather than randomly inserted into a program that would be otherwise stylistically non-distinct.

Thank you for turning your slight confusion (my confusion, to be precise, because that's what I expressed in this title) into a most insightful post that truly explains ballet on ice! Additional thanks for saying a good word about Kana/Dai. I can't believe this is the first time their La Bayadere is mentioned in this thread (kicking at myself)!

However, there is still some confusion left in my head. May I put it here? I'm not an expert (my background: 6 months of (learning) classical ballet, 2 years of modern ballet, 2 hours of (not quite) basic skating) so please everybody feel free to explain most simple things to me. As it was noted very early in this thread, skating makes a certain difference compared to floor dancing, particularly for beginners :

I have known several professional dancers (ballet and modern). They struck beautiful poses on the ice but had no concept that almost all skating involves an edge and moving on an arc.

In ballet, it is all about the vertical axis. Plies are done with a straight back; it is basically a technique how to bend your knees while keeping your back straight. That provides both aesthetics and balance.

In skating, the edge means tilting from the vertical axis to the side. And even prior to sliding on the edge, you need to learn how to control the motion because the ice is (damned) slippery. That's why kids are usually asked "to sit" in their knees. Since it happens in motion, it also means hunching forward. Videos welcome to prove me wrong, but I can't imagine deep knees in skating without hunching forward while a grand plie in ballet with a straight back is just so normal.

This is no big deal for the top figure skaters who can cover a lot of ice and control their speed with minimal knee action. Like many posters in this thread have noted already, there is no "versus" for them at all. They have both posture and knees and consequently good marks from judges. However, from my limited experience, knee in figure skating and plie in ballet is not the same thing and there is a long way to go to make them compound each other. Some skaters may even choose not to go this way.

So this is my experience. What's yours?

 

[Alex Fedorov]

In skating, the edge means tilting from the vertical axis to the side. And even prior to sliding on the edge, you need to learn how to control the motion because the ice is (damned) slippery. That's why kids are usually asked "to sit" in their knees. Since it happens in motion, it also means hunching forward. Videos welcome to prove me wrong, but I can't imagine deep knees in skating without hunching forward while a grand plie in ballet with a straight back is just so normal.

It's not just about motion. The forward bend of the torso provides some protection against the most unpleasant and uncontrollable falls. And if your back is straight, you can very painfully "sit down" on the ice, or even fall over on the back of your head. Thus, it is a safety issue, which is very important for those who do not have significant skating skills. In ballet, of course, the risk of injury is also high, but it is really not slippery there.

I don’t know if you have had to deal with ice outside the rink. Sometimes I have to, and in such cases it is better to forget for a while about the proud ballet posture

 

[peepsquick]

Is there a reason this discussion seems to be focussing exclusively on singles?

 

[gkelly]

Now, as to what are the core components of “ballet postures”, I think everything can be traced back to two things: turn out and extension (note that I’m talking about classical ballet here, as it’s what people have in mind when they come across the word “ballet”). Ballet is founded on the principle of creating open, straight, and projecting lines.

My understanding is that at least one reason turnout is so fundamental to ballet technique is that the artform was developed to be presented on a proscenium stage -- to emphasize positions that keep the dancer open to the audience who are mostly all watching from approximately the same fixed angle.

Whereas skating is more typically performed in arenas, in an "in the round" configuration with spectators on all sides. Therefore, the way to keep the skater open to all audience members is to keep curving around in all directions.

Of course, many turned-out positions can look beautiful, especially to eyes conditioned by ballet. But many skating moves rely technically on more turned-in positions, so ideally skaters can make those look beautiful as well.

In ballet, it is all about the vertical axis. Plies are done with a straight back; it is basically a technique how to bend your knees while keeping your back straight. That provides both aesthetics and balance.

In skating, the edge means tilting from the vertical axis to the side. And even prior to sliding on the edge, you need to learn how to control the motion because the ice is (damned) slippery. That's why kids are usually asked "to sit" in their knees. Since it happens in motion, it also means hunching forward. Videos welcome to prove me wrong, but I can't imagine deep knees in skating without hunching forward while a grand plie in ballet with a straight back is just so normal.

I think it depends on what move the skater is doing. In some cases there will naturally be more of an angle between the upper and lower body, but ideally it will be held steadily or increased smoothly, without breaking forward on each stroke.

Just this morning my ice dance coach asked me to do forward cross-rolls again while keeping the upper body upright and not breaking forward.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Is there a reason this discussion seems to be focussing exclusively on singles?

No reason, in fact Kana/Dai just came up in the thread If you have more examples of balletic ice dance/pairs that would be great!

Russian pairs are sort of known for classical lines (e.g. Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze) although in recent years maybe this has changed with the demands of the sport... The ballet inspiration in Pavliuchenko/Khodykin's Swan Lake is definitely more about themes than dance technique.

In skating, the edge means tilting from the vertical axis to the side. And even prior to sliding on the edge, you need to learn how to control the motion because the ice is (damned) slippery. That's why kids are usually asked "to sit" in their knees. Since it happens in motion, it also means hunching forward. Videos welcome to prove me wrong, but I can't imagine deep knees in skating without hunching forward while a grand plie in ballet with a straight back is just so normal.

The tilt happens to the whole body though, so it's not necessary to break at the waist or hunch (as most ice dancers show). With side-to-side lean, it's more like the tilted axis becomes the new 'vertical'. With front-to-back lean, since body weight needs to stay over the blade (i.e. slightly forward, since the boot is heeled and the spin rocker is under the ball of the foot), when the free leg is at the back, the torso goes further forward to counterbalance, but if proper posture is maintained the back will arch as the lumbar spine engages (like in an arabesque where the leg goes above 45 degrees). When your free leg is to the front, it's possible to lean back more.

The Blues compulsory dance is a good illustration of deep kneebend without hunched shoulders or a stuck-out bum: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SQL84Yusjk

 

[gkelly]

One of the first "theme" free dances, using music from one ballet:

Wighton & Dowding (CAN) - 1979 World Figure Skating Championships, Ice Dancing, Free Dance (CAN CTV

Vienna, AUSTRIA - 1979 World Figure Skating Championships, Ice Dancing, Free Dance - Lorne Wighton and John Dowding of Canada placed 6th in the Free Dance to...

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Ballet-inspired exhibition by a top dance team:

Klimova & Ponomarenko 1987 Tour of Champions exhibition

A stunning exhibition number. It really shows off their classic lines and beautiful flow.

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Introduction of extensive ballet training into pair skating:

Ludmilla Belousova & Oleg Protopopov 1965 Europeans LP

Beautiful skating from the Protopopov's in front of their home crowd to win the European title for the first time. Artistically light years ahead of their co...

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