Define Lambiel’s coaching style

[Arriba627]

Deniss is actually known for his intellectual curiosity and he talks about expanding his knowledge and makes references to philosophy and history all the time (see here for example: https://drive.google.com/file/d/14XdElEhqVwHUCbWS3dZUBpovKTgUqb44/view). He's also graduating from university this year.

When I think of Deniss, I think of him being very cerebral and yes, intellectual curiosity definitely comes to mind!

As far as Stephane coaching him, kudos to Stephane for keeping up Deniss' morale and perseverance during his ongoing fight to perform quads. Deniss has been one of those where every season people have wondered "Where's the quad? Where's the quad?" He just kept working and working, and lo and behold, there was a quad (or quads?) at Nebelhorn and Europeans. During that time, he never let his artistic endeavors go by the wayside. He still needs to get consistency with the quads, but I admire him so much! He is definitely a fighter!

 

[Weathergal]

Not sure why Lambiel would be lambasted for moving along the boards and "skating the program" with his skaters. There are lots of coaches who do that - Orser, Morozov, Tutberidze, Dubreil, etc. and some comical videos of them doing so (mostly made in good fun, I believe). I agree with 4everchan - I think that's a good not a bad thing that the coach is so invested in his/her students.

There was a fairly recent kiss 'n cry - wish I could remember the comp - in which after they showed the replays for Deniss' skate, they showed Stephane "skating with him" at the boards The crowd laughed, and Deniss clearly thought it was funny. Stephane looked a little embarrassed, which somehow made it all the more charming.

 

[rabidline]

The funny thing about this particular program is that Stephane actually worked on it before the 2016-2017 season with Shoma and his then coach + choreographer, Mihoko Higuchi. Stephane also helped adding touches to Shoma's 2018 Olympic programs, and was credited for it. Shoma's a pretty great performer before he officially moved to Champery, but him and Stephane have a history of working together artistically before they were officially coach and student.

From Stephane's interview with Inside Skating:

Watching him develop over the years, and actually working with him during summer camps, during shows, are there any programs, any moments that stayed in your mind more than others? That’s me here trying to extract all the memories that you might have of Shoma…

He had an Argentine program and I really loved the step sequence in that one – we worked on the step sequence. And I remember that I was asking him to be quite sharp in some parts, and hold his edges – so that was one of the programs that I probably remember the most, and that I really appreciate…

Does anybody have the exact timeline of Shoma working with Lambiel? In Deniss' interview from 2016, he talks about training with Stephane and Shoma in Champery. In this video though, Stephane is not listed as one of the coaches. When did it become official?

I think Shoma had had summer camps with Stephane prior to entering his team?

Shoma had one summer camp at Champery before the 2019-2020 season when he was looking for a coach, but before that they have worked together before the 2015-2016 season and 2016-2017 season when the JSF invited/brought Stephane as a guest coach for their national team's summer camps in Japan. Also they were skating in the same Japanese ice shows, I remember Shoma talked about getting advice from Stephane at least once during those shows, specifically for his Olympic programs (it was Friends on Ice before the 2017-2018 season).

 

[rabidline]

I think as a coach Stephane is still a work in progress, but his heart is in the right place. He definitely matured compared to when he was just starting his coaching career, I like that in his latest interview he seems more settled and firm on what his principles and goals are as a coach and how to continue working towards that. He also has a very vibrant personality and has a big fanbase as a skater, so I understand why some people think he's taking away focus from his students.

I don't consider him to be a top skaters' coach because Stephane himself seems to be focused on building a skating school that will work with students at all levels, including their basics, not necessarily a top skaters' club like Sambo 70, TCC or even Kinoshita Academy in Japan. He just happens to be guiding skaters who compete at the elite level at the same time. I don't think it's a place for all top skaters- I feel like some who are more ambitious and need great results to come as soon as possible (including because they need to stay super competitive) won't stay long when things don't start working immediately.

To me Shoma, Deniss and Koshiro all have a similarity to their skating in this season: they all matured and have a better ownership of their skating. With Shoma he seems to be have more awareness as a top level competitor and has managed his own season really well until this point. Some observers have commented that he's a lot more put together now in his practices, and I feel like Stephane's influence has made him more responsible as a person and skater. Shoma has always been hardworking, but his work this season has been more focused and cautious. With Deniss and Koshiro, I just feel like they owned their skating better this season. I used to question Stephane's artistic decisions when selecting their music and choreo, but this season it's like something *clicked* and they were able to showcase their individuality better, regardless of the audience's response to their programs. So I think Stephane's guidance doesn't show its benefits instantly, but he allows skaters to mature and explore skating under his guidance. Of course that's not a great match for skaters who need to be highly competitive immediately. The downside is seen with someone like Koshiro, who has potential artistically but hasn't really broken through the ranks of Japanese men this season despite having improvements in his scores, because the field is just too deep and he's not consistent enough.

And on Rika- she landed her only 4S in competition (national) after she trained all summer at Champery. After that Japanese Nationals (January 2021) she didn't return to Champery until around 1-2 weeks before Worlds started, and had to spent at least 7 days training alone and/or in isolation because the quarantine requirement (March 2021), and instead spent her time at Colorado, so I don't think Stephane was fully to blame for the deterioration of her condition and/or her injury back then. Rika was also accompanied with her personal trainer too most of the time (at least both in Champery and Colorado).

I also think Deniss being the only top level skater from Latvia makes Stephane "look" like a top skaters' coach too early because they will always compete at Europeans and Worlds every season barring injury, unlike for example, coaches from Russia/Japan who coach top level skaters but their skaters don't make it to big international competitions because of the level of domestic competition. While in reality, Stephane is still pretty young and has a lot of room to grow as a coach.

 

[Anna K.]

I still don't quite understand why we are picking out one coach to evaluate here.....

Well, we currently live in tough times with lots of politics around. Neutral topics are rare. What else can we do but talk about Switzerland?

If seriously though, I wouldn't mind this becoming a trend. I mean, evaluating coaches one by one. Forumers are giving their insights here and there, but why not put it all together? Even if most of us don't have enough knowledge to define coaching style for real, like, to specify techniques or strategies, we can still share what matters to us fans and spectators. Like, does this coach make our fave skater happy? Can he/she ensure results that we want? Does he/she behave well in kiss & cry?
(Stephane apparently doesn't )

Also, this is good to have the timeline of collaborations for reference. Every coach grows with his/her students and this is especially obvious if the coach is still young and developing. This development is an interesting story in itself; and for Stephane, can't this season be a milestone and a reason to talk about him seriously as an establishing top level coach?

 

[SXTN]

If Lambiel learns to bring out the best qualities of each skater individually rather than trying to make little mini-stephanes with his outdated tango and blues routines, he will be a good coach someday. Maybe.

 

[DancingCactus]

I must say I'm not impressed by some of the snippy comments here...

 

[decafjava]

I must say I'm not impressed by some of the snippy comments here...

Well I won't add to them as I think the results speak for themselves, Shoma and Deniss were recent high spots for me.

 

[DancingCactus]

Yep. Unless they are really good actors, they seem to really like Lambiel and work well with him and both had absolutely beautiful skates this season. Also, they look so cute in the c&c together....

 

[ManyCairns]

Well, we currently live in tough times with lots of politics around. Neutral topics are rare. What else can we do but talk about Switzerland?

If seriously though, I wouldn't mind this becoming a trend. I mean, evaluating coaches one by one. Forumers are giving their insights here and there, but why not put it all together? Even if most of us don't have enough knowledge to define coaching style for real, like, to specify techniques or strategies, we can still share what matters to us fans and spectators. Like, does this coach make our fave skater happy? Can he/she ensure results that we want? Does he/she behave well in kiss & cry?
(Stephane apparently doesn't )

Also, this is good to have the timeline of collaborations for reference. Every coach grows with his/her students and this is especially obvious if the coach is still young and developing. This development is an interesting story in itself; and for Stephane, can't this season be a milestone and a reason to talk about him seriously as an establishing top level coach?

Maybe we should have a subforum for discussing coaches and schools?

eta: Didn't we have a Coaches' Corner at one point? or do we still have it and I just couldn't find it?

 

[Anna K.]

Maybe we should have a subforum for discussing coaches and schools?

I don't know. I started this thread, like, yesterday and I'm still curious what may come out of it.

I must say I'm not impressed by some of the snippy comments here...

I don't mind snippy comments tbh. Such comments add spice to the conversation. (Except occasions when people are being purposefully mean, of course, which would be against the forum guidelines.) This is not a fanfest thread after all. Criticism should be allowed as well as skepticism.

Should this thread be moved to a subforum so that only truly interested people could find it? Like I said, I don't know. I'd appreciate more comments about it even though it's slightly off-topic.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Well, we currently live in tough times with lots of politics around. Neutral topics are rare. What else can we do but talk about Switzerland?

If seriously though, I wouldn't mind this becoming a trend. I mean, evaluating coaches one by one. Forumers are giving their insights here and there, but why not put it all together? Even if most of us don't have enough knowledge to define coaching style for real, like, to specify techniques or strategies, we can still share what matters to us fans and spectators. Like, does this coach make our fave skater happy? Can he/she ensure results that we want? Does he/she behave well in kiss & cry?
(Stephane apparently doesn't )

Also, this is good to have the timeline of collaborations for reference. Every coach grows with his/her students and this is especially obvious if the coach is still young and developing. This development is an interesting story in itself; and for Stephane, can't this season be a milestone and a reason to talk about him seriously as an establishing top level coach?

If you want me to be honest here I will: No fan should be pulling any specific coach out and evaluating them for anything as they aren't there in person and don't know the way things are or so on. This kind of thing leads to many assumptions and people (which has already happened on this thread) saying untrue things about skaters and coaches that are hurtful and uncalled for.

If one isn't in the sport and not in the skating camp then anything said is an assumption based on what you think you see on social media.

If a coach is outwardly abusive or there is a true issue that has come out in media (for real) then fine. But otherwise there's nothing to really talk about that isn't assumption and goes against board rules IIRC.

Signed,
Someone who's been in the sport for decades and knows.

 

[Anna K.]

If you want me to be honest here I will: No fan should be pulling any specific coach out and evaluating them for anything as they aren't there in person and don't know the way things are or so on. This kind of thing leads to many assumptions and people (which has already happened on this thread) saying untrue things about skaters and coaches that are hurtful and uncalled for.

If one isn't in the sport and not in the skating camp then anything said is an assumption based on what you think you see on social media.

If a coach is outwardly abusive or there is a true issue that has come out in media (for real) then fine. But otherwise there's nothing to really talk about that isn't assumption and goes against board rules IIRC.

Signed,
Someone who's been in the sport for decades and knows.

I appreciate your honesty.
However, the other side of the coin is still there. We do have assumptions and biases, that's inevitable, but there is plenty of information directly from the involved in the camp that is available in media and to which we thankfully have links in this thread, so we have every tool for civilized and grounded discussion - as long as we want it. If we want it, we can use threads like this one to clarify the situation, like it was in the case with Deniss studying. If misunderstandings or misconceptions happen, not talking them over can only lead to more rumors and more misconceptions.

Signed,
Someone who's been in life for decades and knows

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I appreciate your honesty.
However, the other side of the coin is still there. We do have assumptions and biases, that's inevitable, but there is plenty of information directly from the involved in the camp that is available in media and to which we thankfully have links in this thread, so we have every tool for civilized and grounded discussion - as long as we want it. If we want it, we can use threads like this one to clarify the situation, like it was in the case with Deniss studying. If misunderstandings or misconceptions happen, not talking them over can only lead to more rumors and more misconceptions.

Signed,
Someone who's been in life for decades and knows

I understand. But these again, are things that don't need discussed because you really don't know. It's very striking to see one coach's name out there like that. For nothing.

Signed, someone who's been in the sport and life for decades.

 

[Arigato]

If Lambiel learns to bring out the best qualities of each skater individually rather than trying to make little mini-stephanes with his outdated tango and blues routines, he will be a good coach someday. Maybe.

Johnny Weir commented on air about what happened to D.V. 's skating when he first went to Stephane - turning him into an image of himself. I suppose some toxic fans (in South Korea they are called sasaengs) could go scream at Johnny, but that wouldn't address the problem. Btw, Johnny and Stephane are friends.

 

[Anna K.]

I understand. But these again, are things that don't need discussed because you really don't know. It's very striking to see one coach's name out there like that. For nothing.

Signed, someone who's been in the sport and life for decades.

Well, there are things that we know and things that we don't know. If, in the course of conversation, we can state that we don't know a certain thing and therefore should not discuss it, I'd say that we have clarified the situation to the most degree possible.
From my perspective, the name of the coach is not out there for nothing because there are lots of positive things about Stephane Lambiel that are worth mentioning and also things that are divisive but still worth mentioning. I'm sorry to hear that it strikes you in a negative way. Is there anything in the thread name or description that I can improve to make it a better invitation to a civilized discussion about the things that we know?

Signed, someone who's happy to learn that you had time to be in life regardless of being in sport for decades

 

[Ruthypegs]

My husband has just misunderstood the thread title, and asks "where does he get his suits from"? Good question - he must be the best dressed coach, (and there is a fair amount of competition for that title).

 

[gsk8]

I understand. But these again, are things that don't need discussed because you really don't know. It's very striking to see one coach's name out there like that. For nothing.

Signed, someone who's been in the sport and life for decades.

So what? If people want to talk about a coach and/or their coaching style, let them. No one is forcing you to read or post in this thread.

 

[Anna K.]

Johnny Weir commented on air about what happened to D.V. 's skating when he first went to Stephane - turning him into an image of himself. I suppose some toxic fans (in South Korea they are called sasaengs) could go scream at Johnny, but that wouldn't address the problem. Btw, Johnny and Stephane are friends.

If you call it a problem then this problem is much deeper than that.
As a skater, Stephane used to choreograph his own programs for years and developed a distinctive style as a choreographer. When he was asked to choreograph programs for other people, what would you expect from him? What would people who asked him to do choreography expect? Why would they ask him if they didn't want those, quote,

outdated tango and blues routines

although I don't get what exactly makes them outdated. In figure skating, there are moves and elements that are re-used for decades, including eponymous elements that once were trademark for particular skaters. If you think that Lambiel's choreography is not this case, then may you, please, explain why? And what the supposed modern routines should be like?

 

[Arigato]

If you call it a problem then this problem is much deeper than that.
As a skater, Stephane used to choreograph his own programs for years and developed a distinctive style as a choreographer. When he was asked to choreograph programs for other people, what would you expect from him? What would people who asked him to do choreography expect? Why would they ask him if they didn't want those, quote,

I'm well aware what Stephane has done over the decades. You're conflating choreography with skating skills, individual style and body movement that is frequently identifiable from skater to skater. A song is not a singer, nor does it control the identifiable tone of a voice. A program is not a skater nor does it control the identifiable style of skating in an individual.