Define Lambiel’s coaching style

[Anna K.]

I'm quite sure it was Salome Brunner (who can be seen in kiss & cry, together with Stephane's coach, Peter Grutter) who choreographed Stephane's programs when he was competing. Salome has been still creating choreos for multiple skaters, including Deniss (great Bloodstream), Matilda (I love La vie en rose created for her) and the Bodenstein siblings.

I know.
Because of this thread, I already started to search when exactly Stephane got involved in choreographing - and this is not an easy question to answer. He was never credited as a self-choreographer during his competing career as far as I know (although if we put together all Stephane's collaborations that he hasn't been officially credited for, it would be a very long list). He also admits that Salome influenced him as a choreographer. At the same time, it was as early as 2002 when I remember our commentator (she also an international judge) noted that "Stephane is known for creating his own spins". I'm guessing that, at the beginning, it was Salome choreographing and later it was a collaboration - and I am actually looking for old interviews for reference how it actually worked.
In any case, there is a huge difference between programs early in Stephane's career and late in Stephane's career because his style and respective choreos evolved a lot. So this is very interesting and certainly open question about him and Salome Brunner, who influenced whom and how.

 

[Anna K.]

Shoma's Bolero, especially, is such a difficult program: the poses/choreography are made in a way that visually it would look better with someone with a better body proportions than Shoma,

I will return to other thoughts in your original post later, but here, before I forget, I want to post a video from a show program with Shoma and Stephane skating to Four Seasons, doing the same of very similar moves. When they are next to each other, it doesn't look to me that they have strikingly different body proportion except Shoma is of course smaller.

I would say that, even if the skater is short, the body line, the proportion is not a problem. It can be easily compensated visually by wearing the right clothes. The ice coverage can be a much bigger problem though because a small person can't do steps with big amplitude.

Anyway, what do you think about them skating side by side?

 

[rabidline]

I will return to other thoughts in your original post later, but here, before I forget, I want to post a video from a show program with Shoma and Stephane skating to Four Seasons, doing the same of very similar moves. When they are next to each other, it doesn't look to me that they have strikingly different body proportion except Shoma is of course smaller.

I would say that, even if the skater is short, the body line, the proportion is not a problem. It can be easily compensated visually by wearing the right clothes. The ice coverage can be a much bigger problem though because a small person can't do steps with big amplitude.

Anyway, what do you think about them skating side by side?

Exquisite, of course. Also hilariously is a foreshadowing for what's to come

But the part that they worked together on, which is only the last third of the collaboration (Shoma's part in the beginning is his original Winter choreo by Mihoko Higuchi), isn't as demanding nor have the poses and shapes Bolero has. So it's not really relevant to what I mean, I'm sorry.

I don't think the ice coverage was ever an issue. Shoma's skating skills is excellent in that regard even with his diminutive size. It's usually his turns and steps that he has a little bit trouble with (he admitted he's not as good as the Japanese ladies when doing them) and while it's not bad to the point of distracting, you can see how he has a preferred direction for his twizzles compared to Stephane.

 

[Anna K.]

And so I discovered this interview (see bottom of the post for the link) where Stephane himself answers some of the questions mentioned in this thread. The interview was taken before FIC in November, 2018 (so this is before Shoma joined but Stephane indeed comments his collaborations with Papadakis/Cizeron, S. Miyahara, M. Kolyada, Deniss and Matilda)

Before I quote him, I'd like to share some thoughts regarding what should or should not be discussed on this thread,
I think there are main objectives that define the work of all coaches, like:

- spotting the talent,
- providing progress and development of the talent,
- producing results,
- avoiding injuries and physical&mental health damage in the process.

General public is watching how top level coaches strive to reach these objectives and hence receiving praise, criticism, and/or questions from general public is part of their job. This can legitimately make many forum topics, where this particular thread belongs mainly to the question part. There are different ways how to achieve the above objectives and talking about what makes a particular way distinctive from others helps better understanding of figure skating - of what figure skating consists of as a complex work and a teamwork.
So that's what I think. What do you think?

What Stephane thinks (from the interview)

about what characterizes his brand of coaching:

Clara: When you think about the Lambiel or the Champèry brand of coaching, what sets you apart? Do you think it’s that or the pushing without pushing or something different?

Stéphane: I think it’s pushing without pushing, and it’s for sure precision but still personal. It’s a precision within the personal working ethic.

about where he got these characteristics from:

Clara: Since we’re discussing your coaching now, de facto, there’s a saying - possibly sexist, I don’t know - that women become their mothers. Do coaches become their own coaches? Is that something you see happening? Do you see any of your past coaches in the way you manage your students now, is that something you seek or seek to avoid?

Stéphane: Of course Peter [Grutter] is a model; he’s 76 now and he’s still coaching. I have to say that the passion he has, he has transmitted to myself. And the same way, Salome [Brunner], my choreographer since [I was] 10, she has transmitted so much to me, not only the passion but the whole concept and their philosophy of figure skating. It’s a lifestyle. It takes a long time until you understand it but I think I’m following their steps for sure; I’m following what they do, the way they are, I’m doing it in my special way, I have to say (laughs) but for sure I can feel both of them in my daily working.

Clara: Did you come into coaching with an idea of the kind of coach that you wanted to be?

Stéphane: Peter is a very patient and not very… it doesn’t feel like he pushes you and that’s something I’m still working on because I really understand that the initiative to do something has to come from the skater. And in order to have the skater be responsible for what he does, you need to push them without them feeling it. Peter was a master of that, he was never… or maybe he didn’t need to push me because I was myself a hard worker (Clara: Probably a bit of both) Yeah, a little bit of both so that’s something I’m taking from Peter, trying to learn that way of pushing without pushing (laughs).

about choreographing:

Clara: Has it changed the way you choreograph, losing those 30sec on the Free?

Stéphane: Not really, I always start with music and music gives me an image and atmosphere and then from this atmosphere, I create a story where I really want to build images. What I want is that the skater feels comfortable with the choice of music so usually, I try to have the skater put his feeling in the choice and really make it very personal so the process of choreographing becomes natural. And we can create, together with the skater, the atmosphere that the skater is comfortable with, and the movement he’s comfortable with, but taking some edges and some risks to make it look original, and at the same time, beautiful and harmonious. I think the process of choreographing remains the same, with or without those 30 seconds. It’s, of course, a challenge to place the elements, it’s a big challenge, but once the music is chosen and the skeleton is made with the elements, then we can really let go and imagination comes pretty quickly when you have the right image towards the program that you want to create.

Here is the link to the whole interview where he also gives his opinion about quads, scoring system and more.

 

[Anna K.]

From the interview with Salome Brunner in 2009 about how her choreographing actually worked (as I promised in my answer to @icetug, see above):

And it took just few days to make the whole program? (They talk about Stephane's season 2009-10 SP - Anna K.)
It was very quick, because Stéphane had little time. He had an exhibition tour, and it was only this time that he could work. So he came prepared. He had the music already, he chose it and he had cut it with a friend, so the music was ready, when he came. Very beautiful music, I loved it from the first moment. I like the first part of the music very much, it's not so known; the second part is very well known. I like both parts, they're very different.

So he brought the music and some ideas...
... and also he knew already where he wanted to place elements and then we only needed to find the 'language' we wanted. He could do a lot of improvisation because there was nobody on the ice and he had music all the time. It was really construction, piece by piece, and after we worked through [a few] nights here, in the sports center, it was there, it was done. But he needed to practice it after that and get it into his body, as always.

I've read in one of your interviews that this is the way you work with Stéphane: he's improvising on the ice and you're catching his movements.
Usually a stronger skater is more secure, has more feeling, connection with the music. Then more comes from the skater's side and I just have to pick what we have to put together. And when the skater is younger and not so experienced, then I have also to give ideas. Sometimes I give ideas to Stéphane too. But less, less and less. (smiles)

Do you think he would be a good choreographer himself?
Yes, I think so. I wonder if he has the patience to teach something to somebody... Not yet, I think, maybe later in his life. Now he has to do it himself, he's a performer, he needs this. But I wonder maybe later. He will be a wonderful choreographer if he has this interest to do it.

(For those who read the entire interview: links to discussed versions of Ne Me Quitte Pas - in this post)

 

[Anna K.]

This post has been a draft for more than a week. It is probably too late to add to the conversation but maybe it could be interesting:

Not only Salome Brunner in the quote above but also Peter Grutter, Stephane's long time coach, mentions patience when he was asked about Stephane's kiss&cry debut in Absolute Skating interview in January, 2013:

How was it for you to see him today as a coach?
I was very proud. I thought it was great. And I'm happy he is here with Denis (Ten), because Denis is also a wonderful skater. I think Stéphane will be a good coach later on. For the moment he is more into the choreography, and he is still not very patient, but he will be a good coach.

What would be your advice to Stéphane from coach to coach?
I think we will work together in the future. Because when you're a good skater and you have to start teaching beginners sometimes it's very hard. For the moment he is with good skaters, with Miki Ando and Denis Ten. But when he starts with the little ones, I think he will need some advice. I had a system of warm up steps, when they cancelled the figures I replaced it with those elements. And we would like to write them down and make a movie, a book. We will do it probably here, in Oberstdorf. It could help some coaches.


Why were his former coaches so concerned about Stephane's patience issues? I think this little confession explains why (Stephane reflects on his coaching experience in 2017 interview with Inside Skating (which is mostly about Ice Legends shows) a few years later being already with another Denis - Deniss Vasiljevs):

How was the experience of your first Europeans as a coach?

Yes, it’s all very new, but this was already our fourth competition. And we spend a lot of time together, so I know pretty much how he functions, and I understand that as a coach you have to be kind of a sponge. A sponge and a rock. To absorb all the emotions and everything, and a rock because you have to be there and you have to support the skater to be strong, in case of something. You’re the support, you’re the guide. And for me it’s new. Because I was the type of skater that had to get all my frustrations, my nervosities, everything out – and Salome and Peter were the rock and the sponge. And now I have to [do it myself].

With Salome Brunner and Peter Grütter, one of them was the rock and the other one the sponge, or…?

They were constantly sharing and changing… Because I was exploding everywhere, so they had to be like the sponge and the rock at the same time. And now Deniss is this kind of explosion, and I have to be the sponge and the rock! But it’s great! I mean, I love to learn, I love to experience new things, and it’s definitely a learning process that I enjoy, that I hope I will do for many, many, many years.

Sounds like some kind of process accomplished here

 

[noskates]

Coming in late to this thread and I haven't read through it. I have always appreciated Stephane's skating and I do think he's literally one of the best male spinners EVER. What I have observed is that Shoma's entire skating personality has changed since he's been under Stephane's tutelage. He's smoother, feels the music more intensely, and is more involved with the crowds. I never thought I would tolerate seeing anyone else skating to Bolero but I totally loved Shoma's rendition of the classic music. Shoma always had the skill but Stephane brough it out in him. Their collaboration on Four Seasons was masterful.

 

[Anna K.]

Coming in late to this thread and I haven't read through it. I have always appreciated Stephane's skating and I do think he's literally one of the best male spinners EVER. What I have observed is that Shoma's entire skating personality has changed since he's been under Stephane's tutelage. He's smoother, feels the music more intensely, and is more involved with the crowds. I never thought I would tolerate seeing anyone else skating to Bolero but I totally loved Shoma's rendition of the classic music. Shoma always had the skill but Stephane brough it out in him. Their collaboration on Four Seasons was masterful.

Thank you for your post! I have put some stuff for reading here but, to confess, I did it partly because I wanted to update thread with a hope that more people might share their observations about Shoma before and after Lambiel; or about other Lambiel's students. I mean, Stephane has said a lot in his interviews but has it actually worked? For Stephane, this is his first full season coaching a top level skater, an Olympic medal level skater, and this is interesting to discuss how he copes - and how Shoma copes.

Myself, I could see a before-and-after difference in Shoma (I was surprised there was such because they already collaborated earlier; I thought there would be little to no difference) but I was struggling to define what it was. I think "skating personality" that you mentioned could be key words. Development of the skating personality could be one of benefits of "pushing without pushing" that Stephane mentioned as characteristic for his coaching style.
My technical knowledge is insufficient to tell if Shoma has added also in precision department. So I am still waiting for skating technicians of this forum to comment

 

[ladyjane]

It's really nice to read these snippets of earlier interviews. It gives us insights into Stephane in a very meaningful way. Thank you @Anna K.

 

[farornaskonung]

Very interesting points that is brought up in this thread! I'm not a technician, but - without having studied this in depth - I think Shoma's landings has improved(?) ( ) I don't know the technical issue behind his characteristic saves (prone to overrotating? landing on the wrong part of the blade?), but from what I recall there seems to be less of this issue, although not entirely corrected. But perhaps it's someone else in the coaching team that has worked with Shoma on this issue.

 

[rabidline]

It's really nice to read these snippets of earlier interviews. It gives us insights into Stephane in a very meaningful way. Thank you @Anna K.

I second this, thank you @Anna K. for putting it all here so that it can be easily read, there's a lot of gems especially compared to how Stephane is currently doing as a coach.

 

[Anna K.]

Thank you for saying thank you! Here goes another gem:

Lambiel's proficiency in jumping has been questioned several times on this thread. It's hard for me to judge because I am an ultimate no-skater. However, in this video of Get Me Bodied show program he does side-by-side jumps and mirror jumps skating in opposite directions perfectly in sync with Shizuka Arakawa. I don't think this is possible to do if you have poor jumping technique.

What do you think?

 

[ladyjane]

Stephane used to be an excellent jumper. His big problem was that he found quads easier to do than a 3A. You will see quite a few of his Free Skates without or with a fallen 3A, He hit the quad (toe or salchow) much more often.

 

[ladyjane]

Oh, and thank you @Anna K. for the video. How enjoyable!

 

[auser]

Stephane used to be an excellent jumper. His big problem was that he found quads easier to do than a 3A. You will see quite a few of his Free Skates without or with a fallen 3A, He hit the quad (toe or salchow) much more often.

His spins were wonderful to watch too.

 

[Anna K.]

Stephane used to be an excellent jumper. His big problem was that he found quads easier to do than a 3A. You will see quite a few of his Free Skates without or with a fallen 3A, He hit the quad (toe or salchow) much more often.

There are is an interview on YouTuble (TSL, 2016), in which Stephane was asked exactly about quad-axel thing and also why

His spins were wonderful to watch too.

Here are some snippets.

About spins:

With my coach Peter [Grutter], we used to spend some time at the end of the practice looking for new steps and looking for new spin positions and I was very creative. I always came up with some crazy positions and some crazy movements. So yeah, he was actually very good at inspiring me. Then he would just open the door and I would just throw myself [into it] and try new things and go for it.

About the new perspective he got on jumps in his post-competitive career:

I think it came also with choreographing and with teaching. As a competitive skater, I was not really thinking what I was doing. I was just going for it. Now, [considering] that I need to explain for my kids [at skating school] I try to find a way to make it work. I try to be more conscious about what muscle I have to use for that kind of exercise and then it makes it clearer how to do it. Now I feel more comfortable and more conscious. It’s more precise and I know what I’m doing.

About axel:

I have a slow left leg and the axel take-off is very difficult for me because my left leg is so slow. So, I had to work a lot and I was injured in 2008 at my left leg. […] I think I overworked my right leg and then I had a disbalanced hip position and from that it was very difficult to get back to the normal. So, I’m still working on it and it feels good. I mean I’m 30 years old and I’m still working on my body and my muscles and it’s great.

So, talking about coaches who inspire their students, no wonder that Shoma Uno at his ripe skater's age of 24 says that he is skating for the future and eyeing future growth, It seems that Stephane is a pretty good role model for him

 

[noskates]

If anyone watched the World's Men's short program today and saw Shoma's skate - compare it to a few years ago and you'll see what Stephane's guidance and influence has had. He was wonderful.

 

[Anna K.]

So, Shoma won his first gold - sigh with relief.
Now, what about Deniss? He had his best season, too. In this light, I wonder what their strategy for the next season will be. Because still, his season had a slow start and unconvincing end. Right now, I'm waiting for Latvian media to get some information out of Deniss about why was it and what he thinks and what Stephane thinks.

 

[noskates]

I would say in answer to the subject of this thread - Stephane's style is successful!!!

 

[Anna K.]

Here is an interview with Deniss Vasiljevs by Latvian TV, taken on March 26 (it was the free day between Men’s SP and FS); you can actually get English subtitles for it at Settings->SubtitlesCC/Latvian->Auto-translate->English. Stephane barely gets mentioned but overall it gives a good insight into Deniss’ season and preparation process.

They have taken out journalist’s questions for some reason, so I helpfully added questions for more clarity and made the old good fan translation with hope that this might be more readable than subtitles. Or, I just had too much spare time yesterday... Anyway, here you go:

Hey Deniss, how does it feel to be here in Montpellier?

I am very happy, because preparation was rather difficult after such a long season and the Olympic games. Even though I did not feel 100% prepared morally, I went out on the ice and enjoyed it. It was great to express myself on the ice, to show what I felt inside. These were very special emotions.

Your placement was only 11th though because you didn’t have a quad. Have you thought about jumping a quad in your short program?

I think if you are not entirely sure that you are going to make it, maybe it’s better not to take a risk because if you take a risk in the short program and you don’t make it, you lose a lot of points. I want my program to be a whole, I want everything to be connected, especially with music. I don’t have enough experience in quad jumps yet and that’s why I chose to skate with joy in this competition and get the energy that motivates me to skate, so that I have enough of that energy the whole summer when I will prepare for the next season.

Are you happy with results?

I am happy. But my happiness comes rather from the pleasure I got from skating than from the points I earned. It’s great to give your everything and see it come out the very way you intended. Like I said before, I am tired and that’s why it was difficult to be here at the end of the season. But I’m glad that I was able to do it.

The season should be tiresome indeed. How do you deal with that?

I tried to relax, to do it better than I did last year when I started training right after I returned from previous competition. This time I had to change my skates and I can say that it caused some stress because, after you change your skates, it takes some time to prepare them. After that, there was not much time left until the World Championship and I also had tiredness accumulated during the season. When you adhere to strict discipline for a very long time, it is not easy to motivate yourself and move forward every day. Especially in the last week before the Championship I needed a conversation with myself to persuade me to roll out of bed and go to work. Yesterday, I had to question myself: if I like it so much and I am so happy to do it, why is it so difficult now? [laughs] Figure skating teaches me a lot. It helps me to understand myself better, to think about it so that I can say: yes, I am doing the best I can and I’m prepared the best way possible. This season, I also took some time off for myself. I even went skiing and got some new experience. [laughs] I took it a bit easier and it gave me better results in training compared to the last season when I was on ice all the time. So, I returned on ice and did my elements and I was in a very, very good shape before the competition. So, yes, it’s rather in my head now. I need to put my mind in order. Like, you know what needs to be done but you have to deal with stress and that’s the biggest challenge for me. Yesterday, it was a big challenge for me to go on the ice almost 30 minutes after the warm-up and take it easy with good, positive emotions and skate with pleasure. It seems to me that what motivates me most is that I can go on ice and skate for the audience. This is perhaps the only thing that keeps me from losing my focus at the end of the season. It was especially good after the Olympic Games when we had some spectators but not much energy there, really. This time we had lots of people at the rink watching the short program and it was a great pleasure to skate for them. It was a very pleasant emotion, this warmth from the audience.

How was your training today?

I’m sure that my body was very light during today’s training. It was easy for me to skate and I think it is good. Because, when you feel good, everything goes well. It was a good training. Maybe the quad jump didn’t go as well as I wanted but I understand what is needed. My challenge for tomorrow will be to go on ice and skate the way I like it. Not trying hard, but giving myself to the things I do, the things I have learned in training. What emotions it will bring, I can’t tell yet. What will be tomorrow, will be tomorrow. I can only prepare for that. Today’s training was a good preparation. Everything is in the right places. Tomorrow we will see what comes out of it.

Does that mean that you are fully prepared for tomorrow?

Physically, I am very well prepared. Physically, my body is very strong and in very good shape. I can tell that I am having one of my best seasons this year. This will be all about my head, about how I can overcome stress. I can’t define what it was but right after the European Championships, actually even before it, after adhering to strict discipline for more than six months, I started to feel that something was holding me back like an anchor. And you can’t understand what it is and still it is accumulating. I had never before noticed this feeling and that’s why it was difficult for me to understand how to deal with it. After the European Championships, the Olympic Games and now – the World Championships, there is a lot to be observed. So, I am an almost 23 years old figure skater and I just discovered this problem. And now I have to figure out what to do with it.

What did Stephane say about it?

He said: “you will rest yourself and everything will be fine”. But it is not always so easy to organize it all so that you are physically, technically, and mentally as ready as possible the whole season. It’s rather like waves in the sea. So, during the season, you choose a competition for which you want everything to be the way it is needed and you somehow balance it all up. This season, I managed to balance all the waves so that almost for every competition it was the way I needed it. Now, I have a desire to relax and recharge my batteries. I think the season was very good, I’m sure it was, and now I have the last few steps to make… and it is quite difficult to make them. But still, I do everything I can and I have all the necessary tools – I use every tool I know and I try to be positive and come to the ice rink with positive emotions and express myself as I want and as I can and as I have prepared myself. Especially tomorrow when we will have many good skates, it will be difficult because you know that you can, that you really want to do it and sometimes it’s bad. Because when you want to achieve a lot, you do things that you normally don’t do and then it comes out like [shows something crooked] and you don’t know what to do with it. And this will be my challenge tomorrow. Although physically, I can tell that I am really well prepared. Now I just need to focus my head.