Ladies' Free

[jyshin]

The last two seasons, Mao's worst showing was at her first Grand Prix event. She has always done better later on, I'm not too worried.

Exactly! It is better to show room for improvement early in the season rather than later.

About her costume, I think it portrayed the 'grotesque' feel her music just the way it is. It didn't bother me at all.

Loved(!) her tano jump...it was so exquisite...simply took my breath away.

There were any beautiful things that I appreciated very much... I wish I had more knowledge to talk about it...

 

[R.D.]

Do you think Mao is also sufferin the "world champ" curse??? You know, such a burden... of needin 2b perfect & stuff... look at Kimmie, Miki...

I think she felt the pressure here, but come on- it's only one comp and it's much too soon to tell. I think it will take this entire season to answer that question.

 

[shine]

. It's said Joannie fixed her 'flutz', but the truth is we don't know how harsh her original 'flutz' would be judged under this new system. I doubt she had ever flutzed as bad as Mao/Caroline/Wagner etc.

It's pretty bad if you had seen her performance prior to 2003. She spent the whole 2002-2003 season falling on lutz attempt. And by the 2004 worlds it was finally consistent.

 

[R.D.]

I disagree about Meissner. The Olympic year Meissner did not medal at a GP (because she didn't skate well although those events were packed) and she had a fairly bad skate at the Olympic free. (Her skate at nationals was pretty good) but really that's it.

She wasn't great the next year, BUT Meissner's placements were pretty good. It's just new skaters were eligible.

Ando though had a horrible year later.

I don't want to go too much on a tangent but I remember everyone saying how "rock solid" Meissner was...and come to think of it, even before her Big Win, she had a rough GP debut, then had a decent Nationals, but was so-so in Torino. But lightning struck for her in Canada and it hasn't since, even though she managed to rack up a few more titles along the way. I don't think she was quite as "solid" as portrayed, even before she unraveled late last season. Her placements were pretty consistent, though, and she DID place 4th in a tough field at Japan Worlds.

As down and out as she is now, keep in mind that this is a skater who is missing only an Olympic medal. She has the other major titles already. I'm not ready to snuff her torch out just yet (although that day is getting closer!). Same with Ando.

 

[PolymerBob]

Caroline: I think this has a lot of potential. Congrats on landing everything (although I'll never know how she got into some of them). But before she can really "perform" it, she needs a major overhaul on the jumps. Fix the technique, and fix the downgrades (which she seemed to acknowledge in the KnC). Then she can think about expression, although I did like that she made an attempt at it here; much better than at SC. And her spins and spirals were exquisite. Who would be the best person for her to go to for jumps?

I just watched Caroline's short program from yesterday on YouTube. She seems taller, stronger, and even more muscular than last season. She has also picked up some speed as well.

 

[R.D.]

What an upset win for Joannie! When is the last time Mao lost to someone other than Yu-Na in competition?

2007 Worlds, where Ando won the title.

 

[PolymerBob]

As down and out as she is now, keep in mind that this is a skater who is missing only an Olympic medal. She has the other major titles already. I'm not ready to snuff her torch out just yet (although that day is getting closer!). Same with Ando.

Actually, they are both missing 2 major medals, Olympics and Grand Prix Final. This excludes Europeans of course.

Edit : I forgot - Miki doesn't have a 4CC gold.

 

[R.D.]

Actually, they are both missing 2 major medals, Olympics and Grand Prix Final. This excludes Europeans of course.

Well, they are not European so that one can't count. Four Continents counts for these skaters instead. Kimmie has a gold, I don't know about Ando. I do not count the GPF as a "major event" but of course YMMV.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The earliest person of those named on the other thread was Tonya Harding Josee Chouinard picked it up from her.

Were they real back parallel to ice or just a roll on the side which many do.

 

[lmarie086]

I just watched Caroline's short program from yesterday on YouTube. She seems taller, stronger, and even more muscular than last season. She has also picked up some speed as well.

You're right she does. I noticed Caroline's speed was much better than even at SC. And I think once she is more comfortable with the jumps (with good technique and all) that both programs will be really good for her.

Anyone know who would be her best bet to work with on the jumps?

I wanted to add that I actually think 'Sleeping Beauty' fits her better than 'Ave Maria' ever did. I know a lot of people-including myself somewhat- wanted her to break out of her comfort zone but I think it actually works well for her. As Dick Button would say, it has different shades (or something like that haha!) and it comes across nicely IMO.

Icenetwork still stops after Caroline. Hmph, I want to watch Mao and Joannie.

 

[gourry]

Were they real back parallel to ice or just a roll on the side which many do.

In case of Harding, no. Her free leg position was not straight downward either IIRC.
In case of Chouinard, it was a bit more close to Yuna's but I have to check it again to be sure.

Anyway, here is what I know about Yuna's camel.
I read before that Yuna herself invented that position while she was practicing without knowing similar one was already used by someone else. She's been using that camel spin in every competition since when she was junior. It became her signiture movement for her fans and they started calling it 'Yuna camel'.
Especially last season, many commentators mentioned how beautiful that spin is. And guess what happened next. Some people started calling it 'Button camel'(!) which actually referring flying camel. And then they did their homework and brought Harding and Chouinard.
Well, that's the story. And as I know Biellman was not the person who invented that position, I have no problem to call it as 'Yuna camel'. But the thing is that if they name the spin after Yuna Kim, it's not gonna be Yuna camel but Kim camel.

About the topic:
I managed to watch second groups' performances on icenetwork and I was shocked at Mao's performance. But this is only her first event so I won't worry alot.
Joannie was stunning! When she popped her loop I held my breath but she was so great afterward. I'm beginning to love this program.
Caroline. Well, I like her SP(especially the step sequence) better but this LP was also lovely. Her spins and spirals are really beautiful! But her jumps...

 

[PolymerBob]

Patrick and Joannie are heros in Canada ................

.............. but the reporter was a little tough on Caroline.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hxtGMN9yWTrRp8pJBpgXwedm6s3Q

 

[SXTN]

In my opinion, Tarasova is ruining Mao.... I was pretty sure about that when I heard she was going to couch her half a year ago and this competition finally confirms it...
Watching this Masquerade mess of steps, insecure jumps and overdone arm movements, I think TT has probably never heard of "Less is More".. We should send her some videos of Mao's Nocturne, Fantasie impromptu or Nutcracker... In this waltz mess, nothing is left of that natural style Mao once had... She looks so intimidated, even in her jumps...
Sadly, I think it will be difficult for Mao to recover from that more than disappointing first performance after an off-season where TT shouted out to the world that Mao has corrected her lutz, will do two 3A's etc....

I have one final question ( I hope it hasn't been asked before):
Where would she place her second 3A ?
because now she did:
3A
Loop
3F-combo ( why 2L-2L ???? ; would be smarter to attempt the 3L here...)
3S
3F-combo ( probably supposed to be in combination with 3 L ??)
3T ( replaced by 3Lz i think)
2A

If she does two 3A's , she has to drop
one 3L or one 3F, so probably the first 3L which consequently means she also has to change the choreography and the steps leading into it?! Or will she replace the first 3F ? Anyway, a total mess... I think someone has to get used to a program which doesn't happen when you change half of your jumps every competition...

 

[fiercemao]

In my opinion, Tarasova is ruining Mao.... I was pretty sure about that when I heard she was going to couch her half a year ago and this competition finally confirms it...
...

I agree. Tarasova has no good record for star skaters who already had very successful career. I think her strength is to help skaters with excellent jump ability but truly lacks in artistry. Basically she can help rebrand/repackage skaters such as Arakawa. But when Arakawa's PCS shot up after winning worldchampion, it's all downhill. She had led Cohen career from bad into worse after a brief period of success.

I think Tarasova should be quad king Kevin's coach. She's already helping him improve PCS, and she can definitely do more. Mao? Not so much. Mao was already an artist on ice & world champion before going to TT. She won't be able to help Mao get even higher PCS. TT also likes to force her students to add lots of difficult stuff regardless of their conditioning. Mao needs to find a technical coach who lives in REALITY.

 

[bekalc]

I agree. Tarasova has no good record for star skaters who already had very successful career.

Alexei Yagudin was a world champion when he went to Tarasova, and he improved 100% although I seriously wonder IF some of it was Morozov.

Illia had a World silver medal (although a disasterous showing at worlds) when he went to Tarasova. Was Morozov with Tarasova then too?

I don't think Tatiana is to blame for Sasha's problems. In fact Sasha improved under her.

 

[SXTN]

TT also likes to force her students to add lots of difficult stuff regardless of their conditioning. Mao needs to find a technical coach who lives in REALITY.

Ironically, I think Mao is capable of what TT forces or recommends her to do, but not all at once... Aratunian's strategy was a lot better last year... He slightly added more difficulty competition after competition without changing toooo much of the whole program... In this competition , Mao seemed a bit lost in that puzzle of jumps and at times I had the feeling that she really had to concentrate on what jump will be the next one. That is because she has probably practiced 5 different versions of the program

 

[bekalc]

[TT also likes to force her students to add lots of difficult stuff regardless of their conditioning. Mao needs to find a technical coach who lives in REALITY.

Actually in someways it's a strategy. Give someone an extremely, extremely difficult program..... Than at the end of the year ease the difficulty a bit and they will go cleaner at the biggest competitions.

It happened with Sasha Cohen, Swan Lake was jam packed. When she went to Robin, Robin took out all the pretty choregraphy and stuff, and Cohen had one of her cleanest skates ever at that worlds.

But I'm not sure this works for Mao...

 

[fiercemao]

I don't think Tatiana is to blame for Sasha's problems. In fact Sasha improved under her.

Sasha's improvement under Tatiana was minimum. Sure she got some interesting choreography, maybe her artistry was even stronger, and she also got two(?) GP gold medals, but it's all down hill since then. Sasha didn't need to improve her artistry, she needed somebody to help her stand on her feet. Tatiana could not achieve that goal, her excuse? Sasha baked cookied during Christmas instead of resting. Maybe no coach could help Sasha achieve that, but TT always want other people to believe she does have the magical pill, if something doesn't work out, it's because the skaters haven't listened to her.

Again, Mao Asada, just like Sasha, does not need to improve artistry. TT might help her add more difficult transitions in the program and make her artistry even stronger, but if Mao can't land jumps, it's all wasted. Her PCS will not go up as a result.

 

[bekalc]

Sasha's improvement under Tatiana was minimum. Sure she got some interesting choreography, maybe her artistry was even stronger, and she also got two(?) GP gold medals, but it's all down hill since then. Sasha didn't need to improve her artistry, she needed somebody to help her stand on her feet. Tatiana could not achieve that goal, her excuse? Sasha baked cookied during Christmas instead of resting. Maybe no coach could help Sasha achieve that, but TT always want other people to believe she does have the magical pill, if something doesn't work out, it's because the skaters haven't listened to her.

Again, Mao Asada, just like Sasha, does not need to improve artistry. TT might help her add more difficult transitions in the program and make her artistry even stronger, but if Mao can't land jumps, it's all wasted. Her PCS will not go up as a result.

Sasha skated about as well for Tarasova as she did for anyone. She won the GPF under Tarasova.
I think Mao could improve her expression quite frankly. But I agree a technical coach would be better.

 

[fiercemao]

. That is because she has probably practiced 5 different versions of the program

I think Caroline Zhang's jump layout in her long program is pretty smart. It maximizes jump pass and has 7 triples, at the same, minimizes the flutz call. Maybe Mao should take a look at Zhang's jump layout and give some thought. Both ladies flutz, and both have reliable 3loop. Mao can use 3a to replace 3s.

So maybe

3a
3flip+2lo
3lutz
3flip
3loop
3loop+2t+2lo
3t+2lo (or 2a+2t if she doesn't feel comfortable with 3t)