Judging at Worlds
- Thread starter BBI*CEO
- Start date
Yes, I know. What I would like to know is if COP was designed to reflect the individual elements of a skaters' performance as a cumulative total (unlike the ordinal 6.0 system which left room for flagrant abuse based on subjectivity), why does the judging still seem veiled in how the skating is scored (ie: the PCS etc...)? A lot relies on what the tech spec. for the event lays down in advance for each skater and that seems to vary quite a bit from event to event...I guess I'm just still confused in how the new system really operates.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I am completely at sea over the ice dancing scores. I just read the entire OD thread. Half of the people on GS thought Domnina and Shabulin were great, half thought they were terrible.
Half of the people thought Belbin and Agosto were overmarked, half of the people thought they were undermarked. Same with Davis and White. Same with Virtue and Moir. Same with Khokhlova and Novitski.
There does not seem to be any objective standard at all. What can the poor judges do?
Half of the people thought Belbin and Agosto were overmarked, half of the people thought they were undermarked. Same with Davis and White. Same with Virtue and Moir. Same with Khokhlova and Novitski.
There does not seem to be any objective standard at all. What can the poor judges do?
I think the judging has been fine so far. Ice dance is ALWAYS going to cause disagreements because it's far more subjective than the other disciplines. Nobody falls, there aren't many obvious mistakes, and most people have little to no idea what makes one ice dance couple objectively better than another.
Who is everyone? I certainly do not think so.
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2008
The only problem is that there are too many armchair skating fans who think they understand skating better than the judges do.
I edited my post to restate "a large proportion", but even so, it may only be some viewers, its so hard to tell ultimately how viewers are perceiving the judging. In general, I was just wondering how others felt overall. I enjoy the skating for skating's sake, but I admit, I still don't understand this new judging system. I know I'm not alone in this.
I think it depends on which internet board you visit to gather information. If you go to French boards and solicit their opinion on whether Joubert was fairly judged, you got one result. However if you look at majority of fans here, Chan would be widely seen as robbed.
The fact is there will never be fair system in FS. It will always have subjectivity to it.
That's why I believe the more system values technical aspects of skating, the better we are off. Leave artistry to exhibitions and icecapades.
Yes, that is correct, due to national biases etc...I guess it reinforces what we knew, that art is not something to be "judged" in terms of this kind of scrutiny. So the best we can hope for may not be achievable, and we must work with what we have. Beyond judging, I hope we all enjoy the hard and solid efforts of all these amazing skaters!!! I know I certainly do, being a skater myself and knowing how difficult it is to do even the simplest footwork sequences - I don't even jump, it's too hard LOL!!
You got that right!- Joined
- Oct 20, 2006
But did people understand more about 6.0 system than COP? I doubt that there weren't as many fans as now complaining about who's marked too high and who's marked too low and unfair, and which country's judge was mean and all those stuff back then.
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It is true that many fans here are armchair fans. But there is also a lot of posters who have a lot of knowledge and you can truly see that they know what they are talking about. Plus, some die hard fans, after watching zillion competitions have also quite a good insight to what is going on (especially if they did skate a bit). Plus, why is it wrong that people have their own opinion?
I guess it was much more than half of the people not liking D/S OD
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2009
It would help if the commentators can logically break down the programs for people to understand, watching it on tv, like Tracy Wilson did at the Olympics.
With gymnastics, yes and no. Gymnastics has had a tradition of a point-getting system and EVERY deduction possible is written down. The judges are told exactly how much deductions to apply. Fans' biggest beef, next to a lack of artistry, is inconsistent deductions.
With skating, the only few written deductions includes the -1.00 on a fall and -3GOEs on a fall. Judges inconsistently give -/+ GOEs. For example, some judges will give a -1 GOE for a mini flutz/lip but others will give -2 GOEs. Like I said before on the men's thread, maybe skating should have a set list of deduction values.
And here I understood that the deductions were mandated, and well specified(more or less). So that contributes to the inconsistency along with how the tech specialists are often reevaluating levels of competency (sometimes seemingly at random, and at other times, with favoritism). Having been born and lived much of my life out of 6.0, I knew the system very well, the way the ordinals worked, as well as the shortcomings for favoured subjectivity, and I, like many others, had become comfortable with predicting accurately where a skater would place. Generally, I find that COP makes sense with the judging overall, but there are several standout occurrences that make me wonder if something untoward is still going on.....
I suggest that reading the protocols really helps. I try not to leap to conclusions about the judges' decisions, until after I have seen the protocols. (I cannot resist adding, then I leap all over the place lol). They really do give some insight. Programs happen so quickly, and we may not always spot things like "take-off on wrong edge", but these are pinned down in the protocols. Also, the exact numerical value of each jump is given, and we can see the math. It is not easy always to remember the exact value of every combination, for example. Things like negative GOE and extra points for being late in the program are laid out so clearly in the protocols, that it makes it easier to get the whole picture in one's mind. This is an additive system, and therefore, all that counts, in the end, are the numbers shown in the protocols.
The main room for argument with the protocols is probably in the PCS values assigned. That has taken the place of the old 6.0 "presentation", and yes, it can be used, at a judge's discretion (lol or lack of discretion, as the case may be )to enhance or lower a skater's final standing. That seems unavoidable, at least for now.
The main room for argument with the protocols is probably in the PCS values assigned. That has taken the place of the old 6.0 "presentation", and yes, it can be used, at a judge's discretion (lol or lack of discretion, as the case may be
)to enhance or lower a skater's final standing. That seems unavoidable, at least for now.Similar threads
