- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
How about this? Take all jumping out of figure skating. That eliminates 90 % of all arguments. And besides; Alissa will then be the best in the world.
I now ask this: who's gonna take the time to read those things besides dedicated skating fans? Come on. Let's try to see the big picture rather than look from inside the skatefan bubble. Frankly, it's just a bunch of numbers and for anyone other than dedicated, informed skating fans, they need explaining. Where are they going to get that info? Better yet, if I simply watch every 4 years and do other things in the meantime, why am I going to care enough anyway?
More than ever, TV needs to convey the rules and results as clearly and concisely as possible. Going into details will turn people off, but at the same time, being general and vague "That's worth a LOT of points!!" will confuse people when results need explaining. And sometimes even the experts don't understand the score. Doesn't help matters any. (ETA: I think someone like Tara Lipinski could find that happy medium: keeping the viewer informed without being confusing, and making the TV viewer feel like he/she is knowledgeable enough about the sport to continue watching. The diving commentator does that; why can't they do it in skating?)
This idea of mine, does not kill the CoP. The judges can follow the CoP as they do now. The posting of a cconsensus of the judges would not take up time. It's all in the same computer. Using the same criteria for the CoP, each judge could list their scores for all the jumps, all the spins, and all the footwork as usual. Each of the total scores for spins, jumps and footwork wouldbe divided by the total number of judges. We would have the concensus of each of the spins, jumps and footwork per skater, and also of the Line, musicianship and innovation displayed on the Jumbothon for the in house spectators, and the TV camera to show to the home viewers and we would know the Podium. (Think of those score caddie ladies flashing numbers to the audience in years past.)I like the basic idea of this proposal, if I have it right: the average ("consensus") scores for each element should be posted in real time so all can see it, and simplify the elements somewhat. Joesitz seems to be suggesting something between the extreme simplicity of the scores posted now (just technical, program and overall) and the extreme detail of the protocols which are available only later, and only to the dedicated few.
This idea of mine, does not kill the CoP. The judges can follow the CoP as they do now. The posting of a cconsensus of the judges would not take up time. It's all in the same computer. Using the same criteria for the CoP, each judge could list their scores for all the jumps, all the spins, and all the footwork as usual. Each of the total scores for spins, jumps and footwork wouldbe divided by the total number of judges. We would have the concensus of each of the spins, jumps and footwork per skater, and also of the Line, musicianship and innovation displayed on the Jumbothon for the in house spectators, and the TV camera to show to the home viewers and we would know the Podium. (Think of those score caddie ladies flashing numbers to the audience in years past.)
To alleviate the fears of some officials, the scoring would still be secret. At least, the spectators would have some knowledge of what went into the Results. I think it would spur on some of the lagging interest of figure skating today. Now what would be the problem(s) with the hierarchy?
gkelly said:Especially when it's easier than ever to get inside.
Thank you for your candor! It makes me feel better. I made recognizing the elements my first priority, before memorizing the rules and scoring. Unfortunately, though I've made lots of progress, I'm far from realizing that goal. Maybe I can make strides this summer.... but I'm a "casual fan" on this board (if not to my family and friends who never watch skating).I have not found it to be easy at all. I have memorized the base values of all the triple jumps. But I do not feel any the wiser for having done so. I have learned what foot and edge different jumps take off from, but in real time I cannot usually tell which jump a skater is performing.
You once posted a "test" consisting of videos of twenty or so steps and turns. I got one right (I spotted a twizzle )
People refer me to youtube and indignantly exclaim, look at this jump, it is obviously under-rotated by120 degrees. To me, nothing about the degree of rotation is obvious no matter how many times I play the tape back.
I have concluded that figure skating judges are alien beings who not only have super-vision but also can discern things by senses unknown to earthlings. I think a person has to have skated a lot as a child to ever get the hang of it (judging, that is.)
I think the ISU's problem is -- they don't see this as a problem. Maybe it's not. Anyway, I like Joe's suggestion of how better to present scores to the audience.
This idea of mine, does not kill the CoP. The judges can follow the CoP as they do now. The posting of a cconsensus of the judges would not take up time. It's all in the same computer. Using the same criteria for the CoP, each judge could list their scores for all the jumps, all the spins, and all the footwork as usual. Each of the total scores for spins, jumps and footwork wouldbe divided by the total number of judges. We would have the concensus of each of the spins, jumps and footwork per skater, and also of the Line, musicianship and innovation displayed on the Jumbothon for the in house spectators, and the TV camera to show to the home viewers and we would know the Podium. (Think of those score caddie ladies flashing numbers to the audience in years past.)
Under the CoP, the message from the skating establishment is, oh you stupid spectator, you don't know a Salchow from a flip, just shut up and we will tell you who skated well and who didn't.
Just one thing ........ Does the audience tally all these facts and figures before or after the standing ovation?
And if it turns out their ovation was unwarranted, can they retract it?
I disagree about the results of Natls. I think the fans knew who showed the best skating.
I think perhaps the judges did too. Once US Skating and NBC were removed as a factor we saw an instant reversal in how our top two girls were judged.
The proponents of CoP don't like to hear this and offer up some interesting theories including that skating is more popular now than it used to be in Korea. They offer this up with the stern conviction that Koreans only love Yuna because of CoP - and had she skated under 6.0 then most would never have noticed her.
Sadly, that is one of their better lines
No, from the Jumbothon, they read what all the judges thought of the skating prowess and performance for each skater and the consensus is also shown on TV. The audience just has to sit back and see the results. They may not agree with the consensus, but they will not go home puzzled. (Of course the secrecy of the judges are maintained and one can not pin point the results on any one judge.)Just one thing ........ Does the audience tally all these facts and figures before or after the standing ovation?
And if it turns out their ovation was unwarranted, can they retract it?
The ISU and the USFS are the caretakers of figure skating and that requires money, The drop in revenues has shown that the fans have less interest in figure skating. Apparently, the CoP will continue, so suggestions to can it just wont work. What needs to be done is to appease what's left of the fanbase of figure skating. Hence my suggestions to have a happy in house audience and home viewers. The audience at the Arena are good for spreading the word. The home viewers bring up the TV ratings.This seems like a good idea and would also invite more fans into the small CoP skating bubble.
But what makes anyone think ISU cares about the fans?
Do their actions in the past few years show this?
Didn't a lack of operating funds force them to use fewer judges last season - in an Olympic year ?
If they can't afford to pay a full judging panel what makes you think they would spend a few bucks to be more fan friendly?
Yes, the CoP wasn't the only thing that killed FS, but it did play a big role in killing it, imo. Much too confusing for the average skating fan!!CoP didn't kill interest in the US. We were already seeing a decline in ratings BEFORE 2002... after the media debacle and juding scandal of SLC there was a sharp drop (it also didn't help that Michelle Kwan was pulling more and more away from skating to focus on life). Michelle's departure from skating took a whole lot of fans with it...
I don't think anyone believes CoP is perfect, but to blame it for all of the world's problems s
eems a bit over dramatic. To deny skating's popularity in other countries because it doesn't benefit where you sit also doesn't help, and it isn't truthful. The ISU is going to go where the money is. If skating isn't doing well in the US that's the USFSA's problem to promote it, not the ISU's.
I have not found it to be easy at all. I have memorized the base values of all the triple jumps. But I do not feel any the wiser for having done so. I have learned what foot and edge different jumps take off from, but in real time I cannot usually tell which jump a skater is performing.
You once posted a "test" consisting of videos of twenty or so steps and turns. I got one right (I spotted a twizzle )
People refer me to youtube and indignantly exclaim, look at this jump, it is obviously under-rotated by120 degrees. To me, nothing about the degree of rotation is obvious no matter how many times I play the tape back.
I have concluded that figure skating judges are alien beings who not only have super-vision but also can discern things by senses unknown to earthlings. I think a person has to have skated a lot as a child to ever get the hang of it (judging, that is.)
I think the ISU's problem is -- they don't see this as a problem. Maybe it's not. Anyway, I like Joe's suggestion of how better to present scores to the audience.
The ISU and the USFS are the caretakers of figure skating and that requires money, The drop in revenues has shown that the fans have less interest in figure skating. Apparently, the CoP will continue, so suggestions to can it just wont work. What needs to be done is to appease what's left of the fanbase of figure skating. Hence my suggestions to have a happy in house audience and home viewers. The audience at the Arena are good for spreading the word. The home viewers bring up the TV ratings.
What seems to be happening is the branch of the ISU dealing with Regulations, have again amended some of the established directives which may make some of the audience more confused. These changes may indeed improve the overall set up but they are still clear as mud to the average fanbase. Something has to be done for the Fans to understand the CoP or they will definitely lose interest. A visible Consensus of what the judges score for each skater is my humble suggestion. I welcome other suggestions.
However, finding another Kwan may take 20 years, and I am not totallly convinced that will do it. New fans growing up have different tastes as can be seen from our present fanbase who know little about skating before 1980.
Yes, the CoP wasn't the only thing that killed FS, but it did play a big role in killing it, imo. Much too confusing for the average skating fan!!
The scandal just proved that those pretty little girls are part of a network of a fixed sport, so why watch it?
Kwan gave the sport a bit of class which it lost on her retirement. Don't expect another Kwan for at least 20 years. I'm not at all sure that was a reason for the decline.
The ISU has to go where the money is to manage its regulatory operations. If there was no ISU, there would soon be another, or no international competitions.
Who is to say Kwan would win today? She is not as athletic as Yuna or even Mirai and part of her skating that so engaged the audiences had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE cop.
Michelle was so special to so many of us because she skated with her heart...
Correct me if I am wrong but my fuzzy old memory seems to remember Michelle skating at US Natls in '03, '04 and '05. I seem to recall that Michelle also skated at Worlds in '03, '04 and '05.
no kidding, really? huh, coulda sworn she skated in teh 80s. *rolleyes*
I said she pulled back. she might have skated in nationals, but she wasn't as much of an international competitor later in her career skipping the Grand Prix (which did suffer in ratings in teh US, whcih I think is the reason ABC Sports/NBC didn't renew their contract.)
and Sasha was not the media darling of 2006 WOG until Michelle pulled out. NBC put all their eggs in the Kween's basket and it bit them in the butt... Sasha was still #2 in their eyes, nevermind she was the US Champion leading up to it and she was - at the time - uninjured. Sasha was forever in Michelle's shadow, which was horribly unfair.