Czisny: FB Post and Hip surgery

[Mrs. P]

I think we all agree that THIS year, it wouldn't have mattered who we sent. My issue is this: if the USFSA doesn't change it's criteria, the problem could arise again and we actually have a legitimate substitute to send who could place in the top 10. You seem to favor having a monitor of some sort in certain cases, but not giving this monitoring person/group any authority to remove someone from the team, which seems to defeat the point of having a monitor. Besides, no monitor was needed to know Alissa was going bomb at World's; we all knew after the Challenge Cup.

Well, let's be clear here, if there is going to be a monitoring system, I certainly would want to give that group/person authority -- you're right that group/person would be useless otherwise.

But I'm still not sure how revamping the criteria system would have solved the problem. Or perhaps you're just talking about USFSA having more authority to replace world team members? Are we're talking over each other, as doris likes to say?

 

[Mathman]

This is for skfan.

http://n2sk8n.bravehost.com/myPictures/Katia smiling avatar for site.jpg

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

But I'm still not sure how revamping the criteria system would have solved the problem. Or perhaps you're just talking about USFSA having more authority to replace world team members? Are we're talking over each other, as doris likes to say?

Yes, I like the USFSA having authority to replace skaters, but I'd also like them to have criteria to do so, rather than just picking their favorites. You're right that this would cause difficulty to actually set criteria, and the more rules there are the more it complicates the selection process. There are times when you would want to remove people for obvious reasons, like Harding in 1994, but there are a lot more grey areas in cases like Flatt's and Alissa's. I'm not sure they can set rules that cover all possible scenarios, but I'm not comfortable with the USFSA making decisions outside of the constraints of a set of rules because I think that increases the influence of politics in the decision-making process.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

This is for skfan.

http://n2sk8n.bravehost.com/myPictures/Katia smiling avatar for site.jpg

MM how can you stand all of us moody women on here?

 

[skfan]

Well first of all, I'm defending the nationals' selection criteria, not Alissa Csisny. Let's make that point clear. Perhaps the fact I bring it up in an AC thread, you have come to that conclusion — but I would have made the same point if the person in question was Rachael Flatt or Mirai Nagasu or Caroline Zhang.

I have no idea why you think that I, or any other poster here, are making this assessment to exonerate AC. As I said, I include AC in this global assessment. In fact, if you read my past posts I point out the U.S. Ladies have the potential to be amazing and have shown flashes of brilliance. The depth of the U.S. depth is not to be denied.

But the U.S. ladies lack breadth -- that is why they have not been able to get 3 spots. We have good skaters, but we don't have the great skaters that come through year-after-year, like Meryl and Charlie or Tanith and Ben in Ice Dance or Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen in ladies, those three spots.

Which brings back to my original point — no selection criteria out there would have prevented what happened. What we have here is a monitoring issue.

i think it is easy enough to look back at the state of u.s. figure skating thread and see which posts gave me that impression.

what did you mean by the u.s. ladies lacking breadth? i don't understand, because my impression is you only need 2 skaters capable of combining for 13 points to qualify 3 at worlds next year. it's true that there is no one who is a consistent medal threat, yet (wagner may be on the way there), but to total 13 you only need 4+9, 5+8, etc. the u.s. can achieve that without having a lady on the world podium.

i think that judging u.s. nationals fairly might have helped in past year and this year as well. i believe odds are good that caroline zhang could have finished in the top 9. because judging played a role too, i don't think improving monitoring alone is sufficient to ensure the strongest ladies are sent to worlds.

i don't have a problem with nationals as the sole competition deciding worlds spots, as long as nationals is judged with less blatant favoritism.

 

[skfan]

This is for skfan.

http://n2sk8n.bravehost.com/myPictures/Katia smiling avatar for site.jpg

that will do. mm, you sure know how to play this game.

ok, i won't post any more in this thread. in fact, i'm not going to even read it any more... because i don't want to encounter the phrase 'the u.s. ladies don't deserve 3 spots' again.

i'm prepared for the reality that AC's going to be the queen at u.s. nationals until she retires and becomes queen of the new hamilton ISU circuit. just don't post THE PHRASE that will set me off in the other theads, and you're safe from my boogeyman impersonation

 

[R.D.]

R'D., are you proposing the following system for worlds team selection? Winner of U.S. Nationals goes to worlds, 2nd, 3rd and 4th go to Four Continents, winner goes to worlds?

Or is your proposal, 2nd, 3rd and 4th go to Four Continents, then we will convene a committee to talk things over?

Or are you saying in this particular year, Czisny being shaky at the Grand Prix Final we should have checked her out specifically against Zhang and Zawadski at Four Continents and see if the committee thinks they might do better at Worlds than Czisny, but we don't want to make a general rule about it?

If you were charged with writing the USFSA by-laws with respect to selection of the worlds team, what would you recommend as standing policy and procedure?

I wasn't really proposing anything with the paragraph you quoted from me- just stating another possibility for slipping in a check between Nationals and worlds (monitoring was mentioned too).

Now that you mention it, though, I think it's more important that USFS make sure that this phenomenon of injured skaters showing up at worlds stops. How do they do that? Monitoring is one solution (the only one I can think of right now).

Modification of the selection criteria, I feel, is a different argument. That is, are we sending our best skaters to worlds? as opposed to Are the skaters we're sending in fit condition to compete? Both questions are important, and I think they both have to be addressed if we want to get out of this slump.

Actually, as far as using 4CC as an additional qualifier, it probably will depend on discipline and by year. Some years it won't be necessary (if there is a clear gap between the top 2/3 and the rest of the field). In more competitive years, it might be useful to have that extra data point, or perhaps like in the case of Phaneuf/Lacoste this year, provide a "consistency check" in the event there is a surprise winner.

 

[Mrs. P]

i think it is easy enough to look back at the state of u.s. figure skating thread and see which posts gave me that impression.

what did you mean by the u.s. ladies lacking breadth? i don't understand, because my impression is you only need 2 skaters capable of combining for 13 points to qualify 3 at worlds next year. it's true that there is no one who is a consistent medal threat, yet (wagner may be on the way there), but to total 13 you only need 4+9, 5+8, etc. the u.s. can achieve that without having a lady on the world podium.

i think that judging u.s. nationals fairly might have helped in past year and this year as well. i believe odds are good that caroline zhang could have finished in the top 9. because judging played a role too, i don't think improving monitoring alone is sufficient to ensure the strongest ladies are sent to worlds.

i don't have a problem with nationals as the sole competition deciding worlds spots, as long as nationals is judged with less blatant favoritism.

If it was that easy to achieve 13 (and the three spots), we would have done so already!

By breadth, I mean that all the U.S. Ladies are good, which you can't say for many other figure skating federations, but the none of those girls put together have been able to offer the range of competitiveness to enable three spots. While I'm inspired by Caroline Zhang's comeback, I don't think anyone could say definitively whether she would have been good enough to get that third spot back. While Caroline made great strides in her skating, there are definite areas I could see her get docked in (namely speed and skating skills and technique) internationally.

U.S. Ice Dance has both depth and breadth. Not only do you have a whole ton of good teams fighting for three spots, but for the last few World championships, the three teams represented have been able to finish in the top 10, quite easily.

 

[skateluvr]

I disagree with anyone that says Caroline or Agnes could not finish top ten at worlds. Also Flatt. Review top ten. We have worthy skaters. That is all.

 

[skateluvr]

Hey OT. but while you guys are bickering, you missed Aerosmith sing 'Walk this way" on American Idol. Hamilton needs to choreograph this number for AC. If she can do it, all is forgiven. One of the best Skates ever from Scott. Ok, Resume the fight!

 

[Layfan]

I disagree with anyone that says Caroline or Agnes could not finish top ten at worlds. Also Flatt. Review top ten. We have worthy skaters. That is all.

Sure, I don't think any of us fans would be frustrated if the USA ladies DIDN'T have the potential not just to make top 10 but to get the third spot back ... even medal. If only Alissa had performed the way she did in 2011. And in 2011, if only Rachael had performed the way she did in 2009. And in 2010, if only Rachael and Mirai had performed the way they did at the Olympics that same year. Always, something seems to happen. If it's not one lady it's the other.

I agree that no other team would have been any more of a guarantee this year than Ashley/Alissa. But it's also true that any number of teams MIGHT have done well. That is what is so frustrating. We all want these ladies to show what they can really do at worlds.

We don't have a Michelle or a Sasha, it is true. But we have sent good ladies to worlds and if they had just skated up to their potential we might even have eked out a medal or two. I still love them though. ONE of them is bound to have their day one of these years.

 

[Violet Bliss]

As Jeff Buttle explained, a champion is someone who keeps the difference between his best and his worst very small. Lysacek is a good example. But no American Lady fits that description today. Hopefully Wagner and Gold will step up.

 

[Mrs. P]

As Jeff Buttle explained, a champion is someone who keeps the difference between his best and his worst very small. Lysacek is a good example. But no American Lady fits that description today. Hopefully Wagner and Gold will step up.

I couldn't have said it better. I will always root for every U.S. Lady to live up to her potential. But that doesn't change fact that again, we have many good skaters (again something that a lot of nations cannot claim) among hte U.S. Ladies, we do not have a ton of GREAT skaters. Great skaters that can stand the pressure. The ability to come to every competition and do well and as SF pointed out do well even when they're not at their best. Again, there's potential. But potential only matters when it's reality. We saw that glimmer of greatness from Ashley this season. If she continues on that path, she still has the opportunity to leave the sport as a GREAT skater. (And I hope that is the case).

(And SF, I think I got the depth but not breadth thing from you, so I have to give you credit).

 

[skateluvr]

As Jeff Buttle explained, a champion is someone who keeps the difference between his best and his worst very small. Lysacek is a good example. But no American Lady fits that description today. Hopefully Wagner and Gold will step up.

Wagner got 4th but she deserved a silver medal. She was so much better/is so much better than Leonova. She just did not have the itnt credits built up. She should have been on the wolrd podium. Now back to poor Alissa channel. Wink.

 

[Olympia]

As Jeff Buttle explained, a champion is someone who keeps the difference between his best and his worst very small. Lysacek is a good example. But no American Lady fits that description today. Hopefully Wagner and Gold will step up.

That's a wonderful description, SF. And I think you're right about Lysacek being an example and Wagner and Gold as possibilities at this moment. I suspect that Caroline Zhang may join that group. Her problems have not been with either consistency or temperament; they've been with a technique that wasn't strong enough to sustain her during a growth spurt. I have hopes that if she has smoothed out her technique, her drive and poise will keep her on an even keel. Fingers are crossed!

 

[kwanatic]

Trying to get back to updating my blog. I gave some quick thoughts on Czisny as well as the other GP assignments for the US ladies.

http://thenakedice.blogspot.com/

 

[skateluvr]

Caroline will have a great season-I feel very positive for her.

 

[OS]

Here's a list of the committees:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content.asp?menu=leadership&id=202

The International Committee would be the group responsible for deciding which skaters to assign to international competitions, and whether to pull them off the team if appropriate. That committee has 35 members.

GKelly, thank you very much for the informative post as always. Wow 35 members just to decide on assignments putting their own stamp all over these decisions. I wonder how that would work in reality. This thread has less than a dozen regular posters and it already makes it hard to agree on things.

Alot of these speculations are in 'hind sight'. Of course there could always be 'better' monitor systems, more 'rigorous' control, 'fairer' national competitions, 'possible' better results sending someone else 'less injured '. Reality? Easier said than done in a linear timeline. Would anyone taken a gamble on Caroline a year earlier unless she proved herself?

 

[Olympia]

From your mouth to God's ear, skateluvr! I have a good feeling about Caroline as well. As I've said, the thing that most impresses me about her is that she seems to remain cool under pressure. This is how she came back from the ashes with not a speck of dust on her. That glorious long program to the Dvorak cello concerto! That spiral. Go, Caroline!

 

[mskater93]

i look forward to next year when gracie gold goes up against AC. would your definition of 'severe' overscoring change if gracie becomes the one slighted by those who continue to favor AC?

why is it only a problem if AC is 'severely' overscored? wasn't the difference between ross miner and jeremy abbott last year a mere sliver? any over-scoring is unfair, when the slightest difference might mean a world spot or staying at home.

to chuckm, i think it's just as wrong to read the tea leaves and give AC lower nationals score based on competitions prior to nationals. why can't the judges just judge what is on the ice fairly?

again to mskater, you are entitled to your view that AC deserves those scores. i don't usually argue with AC fans, who don't see the flaws i see with her spiral, spin positions, stiff grin, eyebrows yanked up to her hairline, 1 note musical expression, crooked-in-the-air and underrotated jumps... though she certainly has lovely arm and hand movements. arguing with AC fans would be like pissing into the wind. i would not have posted in this thread if i didn't again encounter someone talking about the other u.s. ladies, a.k.a. that lot of unworthy who don't deserve 3 shots at a worlds spot. it wouldn't surprise me if AC fans think AC did the other u.s. ladies a service by tanking so hard they get another year to practice at home without embarrassing themselves abroad.

First of all, I am not a super Alissa fan. She's a very nice person, beautiful to watch in practice (which I wish she could put out in competition more often), but my comment is not an uber's comment, it started as a very real question. Which of those skaters would you have placed ahead of her overall? She was the "best" of a "meh" group behind Wagner who was on fire and totally deserved her title. Each of the skaters in the 2-7 range had issues and hers that weekend were the least of the bunch overall between two programs. I really want to know who you all would have put in second overall NO HINDSITE SCORING OF KNOWING THE RESULTS OF 4CC AND WORLDS.

The point I was attempting to make before you decided to pick on a specific word in the comment and try to invalidate what I am asking is that Alissa's marks were overscored as were everyone else's so RELATIVE TO ONE ANOTHER, I don't feel she was overscored (that would be "severe") but I do feel that EVERY skater in the last group was overscored on an absolute scale (meaning I don't think any of them would have pulled down an equivalent score at an international for what they put on the ice). Does that make more sense in my use of the word "severe" (which in this case would mean overscored more than the others were overscored)?

FWIW, I will be PO'd if any skater skates lights out and isn't rewarded justly for it at Nationals. I was concerned that Wagner was going to get screwed this year out of a win in favor of Nagasu if she'd put an 80% effort out there instead of a 50% or Czisny if she'd stayed on her feet. If I were to choose my two favorite ladies in the US, they haven't changed in the last couple years: Wagner and Gold (before anyone else has gotten on her bandwagon).