Czisny: FB Post and Hip surgery

[Mathman]

One thing about Caroline that has struck me throughout her career: she seems to possess that elusive quality of mental toughness that Mirai and Alissa both lack. If she gets her jumps ironed out, this gal will be a formidable competitor. This very year, I hope!

I know! She's so stubborn. The more you tell her, "You're toast," the more she says; "Toast this!"

 

[Mrs. P]

Yes, they were the best team on paper. But in order for them to be the best team in reality, they both must be fit and healthy.

The only thing worse than using only one event to pick the team is using only one event to pick the team, then walking away.

That's my point, RD. I made the "on paper" point to show that a differing team selection criteria would have not prevented this. While she did not do well at GPF, Alissa qualified on all counts to be on the World team under a criteria of past-selection. She would have qualified under the JSF model of giving a spot to the best ranking GPF skater as well.

Also chuckm, it was club send-off, not a competition. And at that send-off, Jeremy did a 4-3 combo in his SP that he did for his send off performance. One could have taken that as "Jeremy is going to do great worlds!" But he did not do that combo at Worlds.

Again, what we're talking about here is monitoring, not team selection. My suggestion: 1.) Check on the skaters and ask about any possible problems. 2.) If there are indications of problems (i.e. bad results at CC or coach mentions problems in practice), ask that skater for a test skate two weeks before worlds.

 

[mskater93]

Monitoring will only get you so far, though, and there's not THAT much time between Nationals and Worlds that as a federation you think a skater is going to go south that quickly unless there is some kind of acute trauma (Flatt's issue) BUT you'd think as a federation you would hear about that...

 

[R.D.]

That's my point, RD. I made the "on paper" point to show that a differing team selection criteria would have prevented this. While she did not do well at GPF, Alissa qualified on all counts to be on the World team under a criteria of past-selection.

To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with your point. I said earlier that I was OK with the initial team selection. The moment it became clear that Czisny wasn't fit enough to perform adequately at Worlds, she should have been replaced. Yes, this is a monitoring issue as opposed to team selection one.

STILL, with that said, another possibility might have been to have Czisny skate-off at 4CCs vs. Zhang, or Zawadzki, for the 2nd spot since she was still recovering from her GPF injury, and it would have been beneficial to have the additional data point apart from US Nationals. That may or may not have exposed her condition- but then again, two months is still a lot of time. Should have been monitored at least once (ideally close to the event).

 

[mskater93]

4CC was the week following Nationals and Czisny had complained the previous year that it was too close and that was why she skated crummy there. Also, each coaching team has a different philosophy about training (especially very close to events) with regard to jumps, run throughs, and so on so you would have to work with the coaching team...

 

[Mrs. P]

To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with your point. I said earlier that I was OK with the initial team selection. The moment it became clear that Czisny wasn't fit enough to perform adequately at Worlds, she should have been replaced. Yes, this is a monitoring issue as opposed to team selection one.

STILL, with that said, another possibility might have been to have Czisny skate-off at 4CCs vs. Zhang, or Zawadzki, for the 2nd spot since she was still recovering from her GPF injury, and it would have been beneficial to have the additional data point apart from US Nationals. That may or may not have exposed her condition- but then again, two months is still a lot of time. Should have been monitored at least once (ideally close to the event).

Fair enough, I guess I'm responding to those who are using this a sticking point to change the selection criteria or to indicate that using Nationals as a Worlds trial is not working.


As for 4CC, I'm okay with the team they sent. Agnes got some much needed ranking points, Caroline got an opportunity to prove herself once again and Ashley, of course, got the 4CC title. But I don't think a skate-off would have worked here — Alissa would have done poorly and she would have used the competition is too close to Nationals excuse. (Which is why I think they opted not to send her in the first place).

 

[R.D.]

But if 4CC was too close to Nationals....wasn't Challenge Cup too close to Worlds? :think:

 

[skfan]

Who would you have placed ahead of her at Nationals? Gao? Zawadski? Zhang? Nagasu? Flatt? I don't think she was severely overmarked relatively to anyone else.

i look forward to next year when gracie gold goes up against AC. would your definition of 'severe' overscoring change if gracie becomes the one slighted by those who continue to favor AC?

why is it only a problem if AC is 'severely' overscored? wasn't the difference between ross miner and jeremy abbott last year a mere sliver? any over-scoring is unfair, when the slightest difference might mean a world spot or staying at home.

to chuckm, i think it's just as wrong to read the tea leaves and give AC lower nationals score based on competitions prior to nationals. why can't the judges just judge what is on the ice fairly?

again to mskater, you are entitled to your view that AC deserves those scores. i don't usually argue with AC fans, who don't see the flaws i see with her spiral, spin positions, stiff grin, eyebrows yanked up to her hairline, 1 note musical expression, crooked-in-the-air and underrotated jumps... though she certainly has lovely arm and hand movements. arguing with AC fans would be like pissing into the wind. i would not have posted in this thread if i didn't again encounter someone talking about the other u.s. ladies, a.k.a. that lot of unworthy who don't deserve 3 shots at a worlds spot. it wouldn't surprise me if AC fans think AC did the other u.s. ladies a service by tanking so hard they get another year to practice at home without embarrassing themselves abroad.

 

[Mathman]

STILL, with that said, another possibility might have been to have Czisny skate-off at 4CCs vs. Zhang, or Zawadzki, for the 2nd spot since she was still recovering from her GPF injury, and it would have been beneficial to have the additional data point apart from US Nationals.

R'D., are you proposing the following system for worlds team selection? Winner of U.S. Nationals goes to worlds, 2nd, 3rd and 4th go to Four Continents, winner goes to worlds?

Or is your proposal, 2nd, 3rd and 4th go to Four Continents, then we will convene a committee to talk things over?

Or are you saying in this particular year, Czisny being shaky at the Grand Prix Final we should have checked her out specifically against Zhang and Zawadski at Four Continents and see if the committee thinks they might do better at Worlds than Czisny, but we don't want to make a general rule about it?

If you were charged with writing the USFSA by-laws with respect to selection of the worlds team, what would you recommend as standing policy and procedure?

 

[Mrs. P]

But if 4CC was too close to Nationals....wasn't Challenge Cup too close to Worlds? :think:

Absolutely. But I think her team assumed that it would be a low-pressure competition and Alissa wouldn't have too many problems...

 

[Mrs. P]

i look forward to next year when gracie gold goes up against AC. would your definition of 'severe' overscoring change if gracie becomes the one slighted by those who continue to favor AC?

why is it only a problem if AC is 'severely' overscored? wasn't the difference between ross miner and jeremy abbott last year a mere sliver? any over-scoring is unfair, when the slightest difference might mean a world spot or staying at home.

to chuckm, i think it's just as wrong to read the tea leaves and give AC lower nationals score based on competitions prior to nationals. why can't the judges just judge what is on the ice fairly?

again to mskater, you are entitled to your view that AC deserves those scores. i don't usually argue with AC fans, who don't see the flaws i see with her spiral, spin positions, stiff grin, eyebrows yanked up to her hairline, 1 note musical expression, though she certainly has lovely arm and hand movements. arguing with AC fans would be like pissing into the wind. i would not have posted in this thread if i didn't again encounter someone talking about the other u.s. ladies, a.k.a. that lot of unworthy who don't deserve 3 shots at a worlds spot. it wouldn't surprise me if AC fans think AC did the other u.s. ladies a service by tanking so hard they get another year to practice at home without embarrassing themselves abroad.

When I say "deem worthy" of three spots I'm not talking about the self-worth of U.S. Ladies skaters or that they're terrible skaters. Rather, my point is that no combination of 2 U.S. Ladies skaters — at this point — have been competitive enough to earn 3 spots. Also I was talking about U.S. Ladies in general — so Alissa is included in this assessment.

When the skaters — as a collective — are not competitive, there's no selection system that could create the results that people want here (3 spots; world medals).

 

[Mathman]

stiff grin

Aw, you're harshing my mellow (as my grandkids say). Who doesn't love the Splendid Czisny Smile (TM)?

http://www.usfsa.org/content/events/200506/skatecanada/action/czisny-smile.jpg

 

[ice coverage]

But if 4CC was too close to Nationals....wasn't Challenge Cup too close to Worlds? :think:

FWIW, the gap between Challenge Cup and Worlds was a few days longer than between Nationals and Four Continents. OTOH, travel to Colorado Springs would have been easier than to the Hague ...

2012 US Nationals
- Ladies' short Jan 26
- Ladies' free Jan 28

2012 Four Continents
- Ladies' short Feb 10
- Ladies' free Feb 11

2012 Challenge Cup
- Ladies' short Fri Mar 9
- Ladies' free Sat Mar 10

2012 Worlds
- Ladies' short Mar 29
- Ladies' free Mar 31

 

[Mrs. P]

Aw, you're harshing my mellow (as my grandkids say). Who doesn't love the Splendid Czisny Smile (TM)?

http://www.usfsa.org/content/events/200506/skatecanada/action/czisny-smile.jpg

Mathman, didn't know you were Grandpa MM! Do you take them to events with you? Are you making them into little Mathboys and Mathgirls?

 

[skfan]

When I say "deem worthy" of three spots I'm not talking about the self-worth of U.S. Ladies skaters or that they're terrible skaters. Rather, my point is that no combination of 2 U.S. Ladies skaters — at this point — have been competitive enough to earn 3 spots. Also I was talking about U.S. Ladies in general — so Alissa is included in this assessment.

When the skaters — as a collective — are not competitive, there's no selection system that could create the results that people want here (3 spots; world medals).

in #115 R.D. quoted you.

not only now, but even a few months before now, i have been repulsed by those who trot out the 'u.s. ladies just don't deserve 3 spots' line. it's my distinct impression this line is being trotted out becuz this time the skater being questioned is AC.

let's talk just about this year, now. really, beside ashley wagner, the u.s. had NO ONE who could finish better than 22nd at worlds (should have been 24th). no one who could finish 9th or higher, either.

i didn't buy it 2 months ago and i don't buy it now. not when i look at the performances of ksenia m. and many of the other ladies at worlds.

since i largely avoided re-visiting it 2 months ago (trying to 'move on' as you urged in the state of U.S. figure skating thread), i want to assert this point this time around. i want to make sure it's apparent that i think it's an insult to the all the rest of the u.s. ladies when you talk globally about what they 'deserve', make your assessment of their overall competitiveness based on a wish to exonerate AC's 22nd place finish.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

When the skaters — as a collective — are not competitive, there's no selection system that could create the results that people want here (3 spots; world medals).

I think we all agree that THIS year, it wouldn't have mattered who we sent. My issue is this: if the USFSA doesn't change it's criteria, the problem could arise again and we actually have a legitimate substitute to send who could place in the top 10. You seem to favor having a monitor of some sort in certain cases, but not giving this monitoring person/group any authority to remove someone from the team, which seems to defeat the point of having a monitor. Besides, no monitor was needed to know Alissa was going bomb at World's; we all knew after the Challenge Cup.

 

[skfan]

I think we all agree that THIS year, it wouldn't have mattered who we sent. My issue is this: if the USFSA doesn't change it's criteria, the problem could arise again and we actually have a legitimate substitute to send who could place in the top 10. You seem to favor having a monitor of some sort in certain cases, but not giving this monitoring person/group any authority to remove someone from the team, which seems to defeat the point of having a monitor. Besides, no monitor was needed to know Alissa was going bomb at World's; we all knew after the Challenge Cup.

please don't speak for me. i don't agree that no one outside of ashley wagner could have done better than 10th at worlds.

and no, i don't know that AC is going to bomb at worlds just because she bombed challenge cup.

were AC found to be injured (after challenge cup) and not able to compete at her best, yes, i would agree that i would expect the same at worlds. but otherwise... this sort of extrapolating and reading tea leaves is exactly what i find frustrating about figure skating judging and pre-judging.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

4CC was the week following Nationals and Czisny had complained the previous year that it was too close and that was why she skated crummy there. Also, each coaching team has a different philosophy about training (especially very close to events) with regard to jumps, run throughs, and so on so you would have to work with the coaching team...

Going to the Challenge Cup two weeks before Worlds throws out any credibility for her argument that she can't skate well at events in a short time span (or that her team abides by such a philosophy). I don't think the USFSA should have to "work with a coaching team" when they have assignments to give out to the most deserving skaters. If Alissa is going to eek out a silver medal at Nationals (which some find controversial) she must be willing to do whatever it takes to solidify her spot. Under the current rules she did just that. I'd like to see that change, where marginal skaters may be asked to skate a 4CC if deemed necessary by the USFSA. It's nothing personal against Alissa.

 

[Mrs. P]

in #115 R.D. quoted you.

not only now, but even a few months before now, i have been repulsed by those who trot out the 'u.s. ladies just don't deserve 3 spots' line. it's my distinct impression this line is being trotted out becuz this time the skater being questioned is AC.

let's talk just about this year, now. really, the u.s. had no one who could finish better than 22nd at worlds (should have been 24th). no one who could finish 9th or higher, either.

i didn't buy it 2 months ago and i don't buy it now. not when i look at the performances of ksenia m. and many of the other ladies at worlds.

since i largely avoided re-visiting it 2 months ago (trying to 'move on' as you urged in the state of U.S. figure skating thread), i want to assert this point this time around. i want to make sure it's apparent that i think it's an insult to the all the rest of the u.s. ladies when you talk globally about them, make your assessment of their overall competitiveness based on a wish to exonerate AC's 22nd place finish.

Well first of all, I'm defending the nationals' selection criteria, not Alissa Csisny. Let's make that point clear. Perhaps the fact I bring it up in an AC thread, you have come to that conclusion — but I would have made the same point if the person in question was Rachael Flatt or Mirai Nagasu or Caroline Zhang.

I have no idea why you think that I, or any other poster here, are making this assessment to exonerate AC. As I said, I include AC in this global assessment. In fact, if you read my past posts I point out the U.S. Ladies have the potential to be amazing and have shown flashes of brilliance. The depth of the U.S. depth is not to be denied.

But the U.S. ladies lack breadth -- that is why they have not been able to get 3 spots. We have good skaters, but we don't have the great skaters that come through year-after-year, like Meryl and Charlie or Tanith and Ben in Ice Dance or Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen in ladies, those three spots.

Which brings back to my original point — no selection criteria out there would have prevented what happened. What we have here is a monitoring issue.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

please don't speak for me. i don't agree that no one outside of ashley wagner could have done better than 10th at worlds.

and no, i don't know that AC is going to bomb at worlds just because she bombed challenge cup.

were AC found to be injured (after challenge cup) and not able to compete at her best, yes, i would agree that i would expect the same at worlds. but otherwise... this sort of extrapolating and reading tea leaves is exactly what i find frustrating about figure skating judging and pre-judging.

OK, next time I say everyone just know I am excluding you in the future. You obviously seem to take great offense to that. It's pretty well documented on the GS boards that a lot of people thought AC was not going to skate well at Worlds.