Czisny: FB Post and Hip surgery

[gkelly]

GKelly, thank you very much for the informative post as always. Wow 35 members just to decide on assignments putting their own stamp all over these decisions. I wonder how that would work in reality. This thread has less than a dozen regular posters and it already makes it hard to agree on things.

Ah, I see that

The International Committee shall have a nine-member Management Subcommittee (ICMS), which is responsible for nomination and entry of athletes to compete in all international competitions and the World University Games, based on the approved criteria. Additionally, the ICMS shall name athletes to the team envelopes based on the approved criteria.

So it's only 9 people making the actual assignment decisions. Still plenty of room for disagreements, though.

 

[Mathman]

Wow. 35 members just to decide on assignments putting their own stamp all over these decisions. I wonder how that would work in reality.

In "reality" these decisions are made by the International Committee Management Subcommittee (ICMS). This committee has 8 members: a chair, four regular members, two athlete representatives, and one coach member. Here is a list of the current subcommittee (scroll down to page 28).

http://www.icejudge.com/documents/directory/2012-directory.pdf

In principle this subcommittee makes "recommendations" to the full committee, which are then passed on to the executive council and president for final approval. It is my strong impression that these recommendations are essentially never overturned at higher levels. The members of the subcommittee are well distributed geographically, I assume by intent. Looking at the names of the individuals on the committee, none of them has a reputation, as far as I am aware, of being involved in political infighting or of having a personal agenda to advance the fortunes of particular skaters (although people are people.)

I do not know if it is the practice for coaches, local club officials, and USFS office holders to lobby the members of the committee on behalf of select skaters. (Again, people are people.) Politics plays a role in any organization, but I cannot think of any reason why the USFSA would think it was in their interests to send someone to worlds who they didn't think would give us the best shot at earning medals and placements.

Edited to add: In view of the discussion on this thread, I will amend that last sentence to this. I think that the ICMS almost always follows the principles that the USFSA thinks, in the long run, are most beneficial to figure skating in the United States. The committee does not generally make exceptions to these principles along the lines, well, this skater screwed up and finished 4th at nationals, but we think she is better than the skater who finished 2nd.

Anything's possible, but I don't think the USFSA is in the business of instructing their judges to make sure that Nationals comes out in a particular way. I suppose there are some pressures associated with expectations, momentum, reputation, and the like that play a role. We cannot eliminate that possibility altogether.

PS. I see gkelly beat me to the punch on the iCMS.

 

[gkelly]

Anything's possible, but I don't think the USFSA is in the business of instructing their judges to make sure that Nationals comes out in a particular way. I suppose there are some pressures associated with expectations, momentum, reputation, and the like that play a role. We cannot eliminate that possibility altogether.

I've never heard of federation officers or referees instructing judges on which specific skaters to place in the top positions. Doesn't mean it never happened, but it wouldn't be publicized if it did.

I have heard that judge training and referees' instructions under 6.0 included advice such as "Consider who you think should move on" (to sectionals from regionals; to Worlds from Nationals).

I think the way such statements were intended to be interpreted was more along the lines of "When weighing the strengths and weaknesses of all the performances you saw today, keep in mind the pervasive strengths that skaters will continue to demonstrate at future competitions, and not just the success of the risk elements today. We want to send on the skaters with the best overall skill sets." I.e., judge the skating and everything that the skater does, don't just count the jumps and falls. But they still have to balance out everything they see on the ice today and not second guess what might happen next month.

I can see how some judges might interpret that to mean "give first place marks to the skater you think will do best at the next level of competition, not necessarily to the skater who performed best today." So that interpretation may have result in those judges giving top marks to favorites based on what they had done in the past and might do in the future, even if that's not what the referee meant by the instructions.

Under IJS it's more complicated. If someone really wanted to make sure a specific skater made the team it would be more effective to get the tech panel to play favorites than the judges.

 

[Mathman]

Under IJS it's more complicated. If someone really wanted to make sure a specific skater made the team it would be more effective to get the tech panel to play favorites than the judges.

Off topic, but at the internationals level I remember that one of the selling points of the IJS went something like this. Of course judges are biased in favor of skaters from their own countries, of course judges will be under the influence of their federation chiefs, of course federations will make deals with each other. That's just human nature.

But the technical panelists work only for the ISU and do not represent any nation or national federation. Therefore, in contrast to judges, the tech panel will automatically show less favoritism, be less subject to outside influence, etc.

I wonder how that has worked out in practice.

 

[Mrs. P]

Wagner got 4th but she deserved a silver medal. She was so much better/is so much better than Leonova. She just did not have the itnt credits built up. She should have been on the wolrd podium. Now back to poor Alissa channel. Wink.

I am definitely not a Leonova fan, but Leonova hit all her jumps in both programs. Ashley had a lower base value in the SP due to not doing her 3-3 and having a TO on the flip. In TES (where crappy choreo is less of a factor), Leonova was six points ahead.

One could argue that Ashley perhaps should have received bronze over Akiko.

 

[dorispulaski]

Therefore, in contrast to judges, the tech panel will automatically show less favoritism, be less subject to outside influence, etc.

I wonder how that has worked out in practice.

I don't think it has worked out all that well. It might work better if the tech panel did a random draw for their assignments.
That's a flaw right there.

The tech panel & the judges, for that matter, are appointed to ISU competitions by Cinquanta, with the advice of the VP of figure skating, David Dore, past president of Skate Canada.

http://articles.boston.com/2012-05-20/ideas/31766105_1_diverse-juries-deliberations-isu

This recent article from the Boston Globe says:

A new study from a professor of economics at Dartmouth, however, suggests this has all been for naught or, even worse, for show. He finds that, if anything, a competitor with a compatriot on the judging panel can now expect even more nationalistic bias and vote trading. And he thinks the ISU may be part of the problem: “Some of the actions of the ISU after the 2002 judging scandal can only be rationalized as attempts to reduce the perception of corruption by limiting outside monitoring.”

The paper about to be published is:

Zitzewitz, E., “Does Transparency Reduce Favoritism and Corruption? Evidence from the Reform of Figure Skating Judging,” Journal of Sports Economics (forthcoming).

Apparently Dr. Zitzewitz (a name with three Z's ) would answer, "No."

 

[chuckm]

Since the tech panel MUST be composed of members from three different federations, you'd have to do three random draws, reducing the field for the second and third draws.

Theoretically, a tech panel composed of members from RUS, BLR and UKR would be from three different federations, but I think there might be outrage over such a selection, even a random one.

 

[skateluvr]

I am definitely not a Leonova fan, but Leonova hit all her jumps in both programs. Ashley had a lower base value in the SP due to not doing her 3-3 and having a TO on the flip. In TES (where crappy choreo is less of a factor), Leonova was six points ahead.

One could argue that Ashley perhaps should have received bronze over Akiko.

It's all about the jumps with leonova and horrible LP choreo pulling points. I just find nothing beautiful about her skating and she should be deducted 10 points (in my non-existent judging system) for more arm flailing and purposeless movement than bad Mishin programs when Plush was doing this. He's gotten better. Leonova is a wild card as to what you will see. I just can't really enjoy the skating despite the manic energy she puts into her programs(last year anyway). But to bring it back to Alissa, she skates like a dream with great quality in practices sometimes and in shows, you just say wow, so stunning. I guess that is why everyone keeps giving her breaks as long as she stays in.

We will likely (definitely) never know when she got injured, and honestly, what she was being advised during her last two competitions by Yuka/Jason. Someone said how inexperienced they are and I believe it is a huge factor here. They are not looking like coaches currently you want to send your problem skater to after all. After reading this thread, I can only say Alissa shoule have said nothing and let her coaches issue a press release. She should have declined interviews/been unavailable and stay off twitter. A simple announcement by her coaches or management of surgery/time off. Alissa has been contradicting herself if all I read here is true. So, She should have said nothing and let her wonderful coaches concoct whatever story.

That would have been craftier for her image.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Theoretically, a tech panel composed of members from RUS, BLR and UKR would be from three different federations, but I think there might be outrage over such a selection, even a random one.

I don't know why that would cause outrage. It's just as likely a panel of USA, CAN, and GBR would vote in tandem. Backroom deals are not isolated to former Soviet countries.

 

[Mathman]

^ I think the point is that it is likely that the Ukrainian and Belarus officials would actually by Russians farmed out to those countries. There is no particular reason why an American official would want to promote the fortunes of Canadian skater just because they live on the same continent. Sometime quite the contrary.

Zitzewitz, E., “Does Transparency Reduce Favoritism and Corruption? Evidence from the Reform of Figure Skating Judging,” Journal of Sports Economics (forthcoming)
.
Apparently Dr. Zitzewitz (a name with three Z's ) would answer, "No."

Or "yes?" I can't tell from the title whether Zitzewitz regards the old system or the new as the more "transparent."

The new system has anonymous judging but also more detail about where the numbers come from.

“Some of the actions of the ISU after the 2002 judging scandal can only be rationalized as attempts to reduce the perception of corruption by limiting outside monitoring.”

No offense to the good doctor, but I am tempted to throw in a big DUH here. The ISU and the IOC did everything they possibly could to make it clear that the problem was not cheating but getting caught.

 

[gkelly]

^ I think the point is that it is likely that the Ukrainian and Belarus officials would actually by Russians farmed out to those countries. There is no particular reason why an American official would want to promote the fortunes of Canadian skater just because they live on the same continent. Sometime quite the contrary.

If we're talking about making deals to screw with the calls or fudge the numbers to bring about predetermined desired results, probably it would depend on whether there was a Ukrainian or Belarussian competitor in the mix as a rival to the Russian(s).

The tech panel is mainly just following the rules and making either/or decisions. But if they want to cheat, they have the power to do so effectively.

With many of the judges' decisions, especially under 6.0 but under IJS as well, a lot of the decisions might come down to what the judges prefer -- what kind of technical skills they consider most important, and what kinds of artistic presentation they like -- and that may be culturally specific even when completely honest.

 

[chuckm]

If we're talking about making deals to screw with the calls or fudge the numbers to bring about predetermined desired results, probably it would depend on whether there was a Ukrainian or Belarussian competitor in the mix as a rival to the Russian(s).

I can't think of ANY BLR skater, pair or dance team that is in any way challenging to the Russians. And when a UKR Pair skater IS a challenge, they just persuade her (Volosozhar) to skate for RUS.

 

[gkelly]

I can't think of ANY BLR skater, pair or dance team that is in any way challenging to the Russians. And when a UKR Pair skater IS a challenge, they just persuade her (Volosozhar) to skate for RUS.

In the IJS era, Sergei Davydov was the highest placed ex-Soviet man at 2007 Europeans and Worlds. That year, it was more a case of Russia not having anyone who could challenge the Belarussian entry.

At smaller events like Grand Prixs or JGPs, depending on who happens to be at that event, it might be more a question of how the Belarussian or Ukrainian champion would fare against the Russian entry at that event, who was lower ranked at home.

Before IJS, maybe a question of Navka/Gezalian or Navka/Morozov, or Soldatova, against the second- or third-ranked Russian in the field.

 

[chuckm]

Soldatova was a World medalwinner in 1999 skating for RUS, but she couldn't compete with Slutskaya, Butyrskaya and Volchkova in the following years, so she switched to skating for BLR and was 20th at 2001 Worlds and 18th at 2002 Worlds.

The only notable Ukrainian lady during this period was Elena Liashenko, who won Euros silver and bronze medals in 2004 and 2005 (the latter under CoP), but never finished higher than 6th at Worlds.

 

[deedee1]

The only notable Ukrainian lady during this period was Elena Liashenko, who won Euros silver and bronze medals in 2004 and 2005 (the latter under CoP), but never finished higher than 6th at Worlds.

I loved Elena Liashenko. She was one of the highlights from my wonderful memories of Nagano Olympics in 1998!
I am not sure if you guys knew but, back then she was picked up by JOC PR as one of promising athelets competing at the Olympic Games, and TV CM featuring her adorable smile was all over the place throughout Japan. Sorry for OT...:

 

[Mathman]

I loved Elena Liashenko. She was one of the highlights from my wonderful memories of Nagano Olympics in 1998!
I am not sure if you guys knew but, back then she was picked up by JOC PR as one of promising athelets competing at the Olympic Games, and TV CM featuring her adorable smile was all over the place throughout Japan. Sorry for OT...:

Pop quiz. Here is the ladies podium for what 2002 event? (I saw it live. Elena and Ann Patrice had a big collision in warm-up, but they shook it off and both made the podium.)

http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/images/sk8usa/sk8usa 2002 ladies medlas.jpg

 

[deedee1]

Pop quiz. Here is the ladies podium for what 2002 event? (I saw it live. Elena and Ann Patrice had a big collision in warm-up, but they shook it off and both made the podium.)

http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/images/sk8usa/sk8usa 2002 ladies medlas.jpg

Thanks for the lovely photo, MM!

Am I supposed to answer this quiz, MM?
If so..Skate America...cause the fence (the background of the photo) says so...lol & :

 

[Olympia]

And then in ice dancing, there were Drobiazko and Vanagas, who skated for Lithuania, and the very popular Denkova and Staviskiy, who skated for Bulgaria. In both couples, one member was Russian-born and had Russian training, though with Margarita Drobiazko's last name, I suspect her forbears were Ukrainian--not a separate nation at the time of her birth, of course. Clearly both couples felt there would be less crowding at the top if they skated for the other partner's country. It certainly worked for D/S. It didn't get D/V a world championship, but at least there was a spot available for them at world competition, something they might not have earned if they'd been waiting their turn in Russia.

 

[DianaSelene]

And then in ice dancing, there were Drobiazko and Vanagas, who skated for Lithuania, and the very popular Denkova and Staviskiy, who skated for Bulgaria. In both couples, one member was Russian-born and had Russian training, though with Margarita Drobiazko's last name, I suspect her forbears were Ukrainian--not a separate nation at the time of her birth, of course. Clearly both couples felt there would be less crowding at the top if they skated for the other partner's country. It certainly worked for D/S. It didn't get D/V a world championship, but at least there was a spot available for them at world competition, something they might not have earned if they'd been waiting their turn in Russia.

No, Drobiazko is Moldovan.

 

[ice coverage]

Per IN, Czisny had her surgery today. IN's headline:

"Czisny feeling comfortable after successful surgery
Recovery from torn labrum in left hip should take up to four months"​