What will happen in Ice Dancing this year?

[bramweld]

I love the running, I love the overacting, I love the bunny hops. Much more exciting than watching a boring program that could be comparable to watching paint dry.

haha..cute:yes: But seriously; truthfully you sit and watch D/W over and over?

 

[Mathman]

^ I watch Davis and White's last year's short program over and over. Just the Polka part -- I fast forward through the ballet part.

 

[bramweld]

^ i watch davis and white's last year's short program over and over. Just the polka part -- i fast forward through the ballet part.

lol..*snort*..LOL..

 

[blackswanphoto]

haha..cute:yes: But seriously; truthfully you sit and watch D/W over and over?

Over and over and over... im sorry if im dozing off and snoozing looking at a long program, to an obscure, boring piece of music, I dont care how well they dance, its unwatchable. Specifically an Olympic program where the audience will be more than just skating fans.

 

[bramweld]

Over and over and over... im sorry if im dozing off and snoozing looking at a long program, to an obscure, boring piece of music, I dont care how well they dance, its unwatchable. Specifically an Olympic program where the audience will be more than just skating fans.

Well i can sorta understand you there , enjoy your d/w, I'm partial to G/P (FD primarily), W/P and I/K to be honest. And I also like Coombs and Buckland's MJ FD, just cooool and Cizeron/Papadakis' F/D. V/M's FD is just so so this year, albeit I like their body of work. Their S/D at GPF was the best thing I've ever seen them do in a while. Thinking about it, if they had changed the "i wanna hold your hand" exhibition into a beatles medley it may have been a really cool FD. But who knows

 

[Ice Dance]

Dance vs. Drama

IMO, what made T&D, K&P, A&P, & the Duchesnays GREAT were their dramatic programs. They were certainly capable of tough, danceable ODs. But their dramatic signature free programs (T&D-Bolero, K&P-92, A&P-98, 99, & Carmina Burana, the Duchesnays-Missing, etc.) were what made them unforgettable.

Sidenote: P&S had a mistake in their OD in '98 and their long--which I do think was one of their best, though nowhere near medal worthy--was only about a month old at the time of the Olympics. (Their short was also changed mid-season).

 

[WeakAnkles]

^ i watch davis and white's last year's short program over and over. Just the polka part -- i fast forward through the ballet part.

 

[Skater Boy]

I wouldn't put them up there with the great dance teams like K/P, T/D etc. They aren't "dancy enough" for me. I think Virtue and Moir are. I think its sad dance doesn't value dance enough. Sorry, its my opinion and I'm sticking to it.


K/P were another team who didn't win nearly as much titles as they should have.

I agree totally but I think the judges will give them gold short of a disaster. I know there are a lot of D and W fans but if we just watched their performances and forget the fact they seem to have a limited range because sadly or not sadly you can't judge them on that you h ave to judge what is on the ice even if itis the same they just don't have that innate passion that translates from the ice to off the ice. They are a great looking couple and great elements/tricks. EVen with an error depending how big I would give enough of a pc buffer to V and M -however, I am not sure why d and w seem to be winning the battle on pcs - I would have the Canadians marked pc wise like Kostner and Chan - they are amazing but I am not a judge merely an observer and I don't think the tide is going to swing towards V and M but we will see in the team event - have V and M closed the gap enough th at thatey can challenge Davis and White.

 

[TontoK]

I agree totally but I think the judges will give them gold short of a disaster. I know there are a lot of D and W fans but if we just watched their performances and forget the fact they seem to have a limited range because sadly or not sadly you can't judge them on that you h ave to judge what is on the ice even if itis the same they just don't have that innate passion that translates from the ice to off the ice. They are a great looking couple and great elements/tricks. EVen with an error depending how big I would give enough of a pc buffer to V and M -however, I am not sure why d and w seem to be winning the battle on pcs - I would have the Canadians marked pc wise like Kostner and Chan - they are amazing but I am not a judge merely an observer and I don't think the tide is going to swing towards V and M but we will see in the team event - have V and M closed the gap enough th at thatey can challenge Davis and White.

I don't necessarily object to anything else you've written, although I disagree. We're all entitled to our favorites.

However, the "limited range" has me puzzled. Let's see...

A glorious Viennese Waltz, an Indian Bollywood program, a performance piece to a French Opera, a Tango, a Polka danced to ballet music, a London musical (POTO), ballroom selections from a Broadway musical (MFL), a classical Russian piece...

Granted, they haven't done pole dancing or the Mexican Hat Dance... but I don't think they've displayed "limited range" either.

 

[blackswanphoto]

I don't necessarily object to anything else you've written, although I disagree. We're all entitled to our favorites.

However, the "limited range" has me puzzled. Let's see...

A glorious Viennese Waltz, an Indian Bollywood program, a performance piece to a French Opera, a Tango, a Polka danced to ballet music, a London musical (POTO), ballroom selections from a Broadway musical (MFL), a classical Russian piece...

Granted, they haven't done pole dancing or the Mexican Hat Dance... but I don't think they've displayed "limited range" either.

He writes his opinions as if they are facts.. In my opinion Virtue/Moir has a limited range. And that range is from mundane to humdrum.

 

[Mathman]

No, it wasn't. It was D/S in 2010, then V/M in 2014.

Oh goodness no. There has always been a pecking order at Canton. When Belbin and Agosto moved on, Virtue and Moir moved up to number one and Davis and White to number two. As I understand it, the reason for the Zoueva-Shpilband split is that the Shibutanis were worried that they were losing their place. In the last four years V&M have stayed about the same and D&W have inched ahead.

 

[bramweld]

I say it again, COP has rendered dance to be all about technique and how easily that difficulty can be presented. V/M cannot compete anymore with D/W primarily because of injury issues and the mere fact that there is little disparity in size between Tessa and Scott. I cannot fault D/W for that. They have played their hand well. V/M would have to be majorly inspired or D/W would have to gift them with a major mistake for them to take gold this time around. I/K, the young buds, who are still struggling with consistency beat them on the technical score at TEB! W/P also beat them in this regard at SC in the SD. To save face they probably should have exited when the won their last Olympic medal or WC.

Dance needs new life at the moment. That means a number of teams that while mastering the technique can also bring back the sheer beauty of dance. No one will be able to beat D/W until that happens

 

[Matt K]

I say it again, COP has rendered dance to be all about technique and how easily that difficulty can be presented. V/M cannot compete anymore with D/W primarily because of injury issues and the mere fact that there is little disparity in size between Tessa and Scott. I cannot fault D/W for that. They have played their hand well. V/M would have to be majorly inspired or D/W would have to gift them with a major mistake for them to take gold this time around. I/K, the young buds, who are still struggling with consistency beat them on the technical score at TEB! W/P also beat them in this regard at SC in the SD. To save face they probably should have exited when the won their last Olympic medal or WC.

Dance needs new life at the moment. That means a number of teams that while mastering the technique can also bring back the sheer beauty of dance. No one will be able to beat D/W until that happens

V/M are the only ones who are capable of this, IMO. D/W combining technique and artistry? In what universe?

 

[Matt K]

Oh goodness no. There has always been a pecking order at Canton. When Belbin and Agosto moved on, Virtue and Moir moved up to number one and Davis and White to number two. As I understand it, the reason for the Zoueva-Shpilband split is that the Shibutanis were worried that they were losing their place. In the last four years V&M have stayed about the same and D&W have inched ahead.

No, it was definitely D/S in 2010. They were winning pretty big in 2008 before his injury. It was definitely D/S in 2010, and V/M in 2014.

IMO: If both V&M and BOTH D&S (French and Russian) had all been healthy in 2010, D&W wouldn't have won their silver medal.

 

[bramweld]

V/M are the only ones who are capable of this, IMO. D/W combining technique and artistry? In what universe?

Well apparently the judges cannot distinguish between these two concepts with the current structure of the COP rules. It infuriates me no end. Almost every competition all we see is dancing by numbers, i.e. elements.

 

[Matt K]

Dance AND Drama, not Dance vs. Drama

A&P, G&P, K&P had dramatic programs but that doesn't mean they were any worse ice dancers than the lyrical/uptempo dancers. They all had clean edges, clean stroking and their programs had close dance holds (no excessive arm grabbing and side to side pulling) and far more difficulty than just running on toepicks like D&W. As poor a skater as Margaglio was, even F-P/M were skating closer together and in tighter holds in their ODs than D/W in their FDs.

 

[bramweld]

A&P, G&P, K&P had dramatic programs but that doesn't mean they weren't any worse ice dancers than the lyrical/uptempo dancers. They all had clean edges, clean stroking and their programs had close dance holds (no excessive arm grabbing and side to side pulling) and far more difficulty than just running on toepicks like D&W.

You preaching to the choir Matt K *rolls eyes icon*

 

[Matt K]

I have nothing against Dick Button or against you, but I also don’t agree with Button‘s comments. You know him personally and maybe he is charming person, but I don’t think that his career proves that he is great ice dancing specialist. If we would taken into account your number of competition which you saw live – the ending mind is that it took many years to be able to watch so many competitions, which means that older one is better expert than younger one. So Mishin would be better ice dance expert than Krylova, Frank Caroll would be better ice dance expert than Zueva and so on. To compulsory figures – it was about repeating the same moves on exactly same place on the ice, it is not too close to what skating skills and dance holds and deep edges are today. I don’t agree with opinion that necessary all skaters or people who spend many years on the ice or close the ice are necessary ice dancing experts. You can make an expert from many people outside of skating…when you explain them what they should look for…believe me, people are smart, they can learn fastly what to look at.
For example – skating skills – look for deep edges – the angle between blades and ice surface (it will take a little bit longer time for not skater to learn to notice who has deep edges and who not, but he/she will learn it definitely). Look for extended free leg, look for deep knees of standing leg – everybody from not skaters would notice it, if you pointed it. Look for close dance holdings – partners are close to each other and they hold hands, waist, put hand on shoulder. With those instructions you can learn anyone to notice how good or average the couple is. And you don’t need to be Olympic champion or fan who saw 96 events live. If you know Dick Button personaly, you can ask him why he thinks that perfect ice dancing technique means (in his eyes) that the couple is jumping so many times, why he thinks that deep edges are not necessary in ice dancing while people (and I believe that Button also) demand great skating skills with deep edges even in solo skating (and especially Patrick Chan and Jeremy Abbott are praised for it with component mark). You need to be musical one to be able to say who keeps the rhythm and who not. And probably you need some dancing qualities to notice who is good dancer and who not. But as to technique, there are many things which you may notice without being skater and Olympic champion.

Well said. What current elite ice dancers are doing and the moves they are doing are on a COMPLETELY different plane of understanding than singles compulsory figures back in the day.

Off topic, as I have nothing against the great Dick Button either, and I know he is a favorite pastime for Americans, but I make attempts to not listen to his inane and moronic commentary ever since 1992.

 

[Matt K]

You preaching to the choir Matt K *rolls eyes icon*

Sorry, this was supposed to be a response to the poster Ice Dance at the top of the page.

 

[Matt K]

American teams go into direction I would not be expecting. Besides Davis & White, there are three other teams who are trying to shine – Chock & Bates, Shibutani’s, Hubell & Donohue. While a behaviour and preferences of US Federation are very well seen – they push Chock & Bates to become next Davis & White too hard and it is very obvious. Matt K noticed those “jumping“ programs of D&W, I already mentioned it in other topic. And Chock & Bates are another team who has “small jumping“ parts so many times, so skating with jumps will continue even after D&W retire. Chock & Bates are another couple who is skating, not dancing. Especially their free program is another sort of misunderstanding…Les Miserables, the couple tries to portray love story with many gestures towards each other (but we don’t know what characters are they) but with a little emotions between the couple on the ice, some dynamic moves but without any sense, and the music plays One Day More which is a song at the end of movie and every character sing there (Valjean, Marius, Cosette, Eponine, Enjolras, Javert)…once again the couple is skating, the music is playing, the story we know…but all of it separately. What is also interesting is the fact that Chock & Bates have a very decent edges, far to be called deep edges. Many people criticise Cappellini for not having good technique (deep edges are a part of good technique)…and watching Madison and Evan’s blades leads to ending that they have the same not deep edges like Italian couple. So if Cappellini has poor technique, Chock & Bates also have…

Looking at those three couples - the couple with deeper edges are Hubbell & Donohue, in the same time I find them the best dancers from those three couples. The US Federation obviously didn’t like them, they were not chosen for the Olympics. But if future of ice dance cathegory would once again go into direction of skaters who can dance and who have good technique – this couple should be American number 1.

Shibutani’s are hard working couple who tries to skate to different sources of music, but I don’t think that Jackson was good choice. I don’t see Jackson even in choreography, only some movements reminds of Jackson‘s style, while 95 % of program is skated in Shibutani’s classical style. I hope that Zueva will have better choice next year. Still this couple also have slightly better and deeper edges than Chock & Bates.

I agree. H/D, IMO, are the most complete ice DANCE team of the 3 pairs. I think USFSA is stupid for putting them behind the Shibutanis (and Chock/Bates, but that's another story), but her injuries this season have made them vulnerable. It'll be interesting what USFSA will do with a healthy H/D next season (I think USFSA will continue to be morons when it comes to ice dance and keep them behind the other two though). They have great skating skills, great partnering abilities (for both), and great choreography. They have more "soul" in ice dance than the other two, IMO. And sadly in CoP, that's all I ask for. Shibutanis are doing elements but not dancing. Chock & Bates, no comment.