What exactly was Sotnikova's theme in her long program?

[shellbell757]

I wonder if Sotnikova could ever really become a graceful skater. While her LP this season was truly atrocious and should be banished forever to the netherworld of bad skating programs, it did seem like Sotnikova was comfortable skating that "style" of figure skating. As in she seems to excel at obviously thrusting herself forward and skating in a manic, absurd way across the ice, music be damned. I do appreciate the fact that she is well-proportioned in terms of her physique and has good extension on her spirals. However, something about her aura is deeply inelegant. I can't imagine her ever being lyrical or sophisticated. She's more akin to an 18-wheeler than anything else. Boy can she bulldoze her way across that ice! If she keeps upping her technical components, though, she may yet win a few more competitions since it seems like skating has turned into a jumping contest interspersed with freakish spins.

I have to agree with you. Based on how she moves, I doubt Sotnikova can become a truly graceful skater. It doesn't mean she can't be great though. She just needs to get some help in the choreography and basic skating skills department. Hopefully she and her coaches can see through her crazy PCS marks in Sochi and work on these things before next season.

 

[pointyourtoe]

Her extension and flexibility are OK, I don't see why she can't be refined. That choreography was just really cheesy. Especially the waving

 

[sk8ingcoach]

When I look at her progression over the last few years, she has really had some god awful programs. From the red unitard bolero, Christina Aguliera whaling and now her Olympic robot and cheesy waving. I don't see her making improvements without changing choreographers

 

[Nadya]

I wonder if Sotnikova could ever really become a graceful skater. While her LP this season was truly atrocious and should be banished forever to the netherworld of bad skating programs, it did seem like Sotnikova was comfortable skating that "style" of figure skating. As in she seems to excel at obviously thrusting herself forward and skating in a manic, absurd way across the ice, music be damned. I do appreciate the fact that she is well-proportioned in terms of her physique and has good extension on her spirals. However, something about her aura is deeply inelegant. I can't imagine her ever being lyrical or sophisticated. She's more akin to an 18-wheeler than anything else. Boy can she bulldoze her way across that ice! If she keeps upping her technical components, though, she may yet win a few more competitions since it seems like skating has turned into a jumping contest interspersed with freakish spins.

There is no requirement for skaters to be graceful, lyrical or elegant to win.

I think it's absurd that you describe someone's skating as absurd.

I am sure Sotnikova is delighted you appreciate her...PHYSIQUE.

 

[Nadya]

Only a minority of skating routines have identifiable themes, and these are most often defined by the story of the music, if known, or costuming. There is almost no way to attribute a "theme" to a skating routine once you take away the music and the costume. What is Kostner's story in Bolero? There isn't one. Turn off the music, watch the skating and see if you can spot a story. Most of them are just about athletes doing their thing to the music trying to look attractive. The story? That's made up for the media. It could really be anything.

 

[anyanka]

Does she already take ballet or other dance classes? It could help her with her movement to appear less stiff on the ice. She could improve her lines and posture.

 

[usethis2]

This.

 

[gkelly]

What exactly was Urmanov's theme in his Olympic-winning long program?

 

[jenaj]

How was it passionless? When I showed it to my people around me, their jaws dropped and said said wow she is amazing.
Even non-figure skating fans could tell the difference.

It was kind of passion-less. Yuna is not a very expressive skater to begin with but the combination of the music, the Russian audience, skating last and the Olympic stage seemed to take some life out of her. Regardless of her shortcomings, Adelina skated the heck out of that program. She raised her game and Yuna went with, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I wish Yuna had stepped out of her comfort zone more, even if it might not have been enough.

 

[usethis2]

It was kind of passion-less. Yuna is not a very expressive skater to begin with but the combination of the music, the Russian audience, skating last and the Olympic stage seemed to take some life out of her. Regardless of her shortcomings, Adelina skated the heck out of that program. She raised her game and Yuna went with, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I wish Yuna had stepped out of her comfort zone more, even if it might not have been enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8NIHBJBAqU

Enough passion there to me. She does make things look easier, yes, seeing that she skates much faster and effortlessly (in appearance) than Adelina.

I am not sure what you hoped Yuna would have done. I get that not everyone has the same taste ("not my cup of tea") but a rational criticism should be provable or disputable. It was her farewell performance, on the Olympic ice, as the last skater. She practiced hard and performed as well as she had ever done and she said she gave her all in an after-event interview. Do you seriously think she should have gone out of her practiced choreo and thrust her hips or kissed the ice in the middle of her program? What exactly did Adelina do to get out of her comfort zone? As you can see here even the defenders of her score cannot tell us what her skating was about.

Or do you have a double standard that apply differently to Yuna and to every other competitor? I can understand that, too, but I don't believe that is what happened in Sochi.

 

[discombobulate]

This:

http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/jaag...+Figure+Skating/QeY0rsSvLeM/Adelina+Sotnikova

was Adelina's original costume. The gloves indicate that it is supposed to be a ball gown. Since the music is titled Rondo Capriccioso, I would imagine that originally, the concept was to have Adelina portray a capricious young woman in the full bloom of her beauty at a ball---i.e., a debutante.

I don't know why they then decided to have her wear dark colors and chains. Made no sense.

Ohhh now that's an idea. I'll have to watch it again...
She totally should have kept that costume

 

[discombobulate]

Only a minority of skating routines have identifiable themes, and these are most often defined by the story of the music, if known, or costuming. There is almost no way to attribute a "theme" to a skating routine once you take away the music and the costume. What is Kostner's story in Bolero? There isn't one. Turn off the music, watch the skating and see if you can spot a story. Most of them are just about athletes doing their thing to the music trying to look attractive. The story? That's made up for the media. It could really be anything.

I disagree. Have you ever seen Bolero the ballet? If you take away Carolina's music, IMO the theme is identifiable. What about practically any decently choreographed swan lake program? Or even firebird programs. Look at something like Stephane Lambiel's Flamenco LP. Even if you imagine it with no music + normal clothes- I think you'd see a theme. And I'm just thinking of singles skating. Pairs and dance opens a whole new can of worms.

 

[jenaj]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8NIHBJBAqU

Enough passion there to me. She does make things look easier, yes, seeing that she skates much faster and effortlessly (in appearance) than Adelina.

I am not sure what you hoped Yuna would have done. I get that not everyone has the same taste ("not my cup of tea") but a rational criticism should be provable or disputable. It was her farewell performance, on the Olympic ice, as the last skater. She practiced hard and performed as well as she had ever done and she said she gave her all in an after-event interview. Do you seriously think she should have gone out of her practiced choreo and thrust her hips or kissed the ice in the middle of her program? What exactly did Adelina do to get out of her comfort zone? As you can see here even the defenders of her score cannot tell us what her skating was about.

Or do you have a double standard that apply differently to Yuna and to every other competitor? I can understand that, too, but I don't believe that is what happened in Sochi.

Don't me wrong- I think Adelina was gifted. I am not defending her gold medal. But she had her Olympic moment. Yuna didn't. She was pretty and perfect technically as usual, but not very exciting.

 

[Nadya]

I disagree. Have you ever seen Bolero the ballet? If you take away Carolina's music, IMO the theme is identifiable. What about practically any decently choreographed swan lake program? Or even firebird programs. Look at something like Stephane Lambiel's Flamenco LP. Even if you imagine it with no music + normal clothes- I think you'd see a theme. And I'm just thinking of singles skating. Pairs and dance opens a whole new can of worms.

Carolina's Bolero had no choreography before the footwork section so I am not sure what you think would be identifiable there.

Re: swan lake & firebird, make them skate in plain black practice outfits and ban arm flapping, and see if you can still tell.

Flamenco is identifiable, yes, it has very specific movements that aren't found anywhere else. I still think that's the minority rather than the rule. Turn off the music and see if you can identify a theme. For the majority of routines without identifiable costumes, telltale hand movements and the like, you really can't.

 

[kwanatic]

Adelina's lines aren't perfect but they're good and better than a number of skaters IMO, particularly her leg lines (beautiful extension and flexibility). Her posture, while not perfect, isn't as deplorable as some people are insisting it is. I think she could stand to push her shoulders back and lift more from her chest, but she isn't horrific a la Miki Ando.

Some of the comments I've seen re: Adelina are leading me to believe that a lot of people are regurgitating stuff that they've seen somebody else write without really giving it any thought to whether or not it's true. Adelina has nice basic skating skills. Her edges are smooth and deeper than many, yet I keep seeing people say "oh she has shallow edges" or "she skates on top of the ice" which I don't agree with at all. She's able to generate a lot of speed with very few crossovers and maintains her speed with transitions which is something a number of the top skaters aren't able to do. Her ice coverage does need work; it's not terrible but it could be a lot better. No, some of her programs aren't that great (though I actually liked her Carmen SP) but she performs with a ton of energy and really sells her programs regardless of how sucky the choreography is.

It seems like people are forgetting she's only 17. I think Adelina has the ability to be graceful and more refined, but in order for that to happen she is going to have to get away from the choreographers she currently has. Her style of skating is very Russian (ie. kinda tacky...sorry) and I don't really see her departing from that anytime soon which I hate because I think Lori or someone else could do wonders with her (smooth her out, slow her down). I do sincerely hope she get some better programs and costumes in the future.

But overall I think she's a very good skater and not nearly as deficient as some people are making her out to be.

 

[discombobulate]

I don't see anything wrong with arm flapping or telltale hand movements.
I'm saying that Carolina's program is super inspired by the ballet, and I can tell, even before the footwork.

Competitive skating is not something like dance/ballet theater where you can clearly tell what is going on. What if you stripped away dancer's costumes, music, props, and setting?
We have to work with what we have. I am in no way dissatisfied with the sport of competitive figure skating, even if the ability to story-tell with movements other than arms and hands is limited.


Anyway, this is would be a very fun game to play. maybe watching programs in practice? haha

 

[Nadya]

I don't see anything wrong with arm flapping or telltale hand movements.
I'm saying that Carolina's program is super inspired by the ballet, and I can tell, even before the footwork.

Competitive skating is not something like dance/ballet theater where you can clearly tell what is going on. What if you stripped away dancer's costumes, music, props, and setting?
We have to work with what we have. I am in no way dissatisfied with the sport of competitive figure skating, even if the ability to story-tell with movements other than arms and hands is limited.


Anyway, this is would be a very fun game to play. maybe watching programs in practice? haha

It seems that you know ballet very well so I will go with your argument. To me, Carolina's choreography has been generic to non-existent, especially in the first 2 1/2 minutes. But I am happy to allow for the difference of opinion.

I think that in "general", the things like "feeling the music", "overcome by emotion" etc. when it comes to figure skating, are just a bunch of bollocks. Skaters are athletes, most of all. The only thing they think about during the program is hitting the elements and hitting them cleanly. That they make their faces emote things to go with the music is a feat of practice - it has nothing to do with what they are thinking at the moment, which is usually "hit that lutz, dammit." They aren't thinking about the pain of a father/son relationship, sexual tension, classical love, youthful exuberance, etc. That's just for the stories.

 

[usethis2]

Don't me wrong- I think Adelina was gifted. I am not defending her gold medal. But she had her Olympic moment. Yuna didn't. She was pretty and perfect technically as usual, but not very exciting.

So you have a double standard. I don't think you are alone in that. Many fans hold Yuna in higher regard and often expect her to outdo her past performances. If that is what you meant, I can relate to it. Although unlike you I was moved by her Olympic performance.

But when it comes to "getting you wrong," that is not my intention. To the contrary I want to get you right. That is why I am asking. You say Yuna stayed in her comfort zone. Well, the facts on the ground tell a different story. Had she wanted to ride easy, she could have recycled her 2013 programs which were already proven in WC 2013. That she and Wilson wanted something special for the farewell and the Olympics, with distinctively different programs than what Yuna had done prior to this year, is in itself a testament to her dedication. (as a matter of fact, there was a huge debate how well such different programs suit her on this board) There are many skaters who reused their previous season's programs for the Olympics. In Adelina's case, she used the same program that she used for her junior competition, I've heard. Yes, Yuna does the same jumps but who doesn't?

So I am left puzzled by statements such as "Yuna played it safe" (a la Weir) because I honestly don't know what that means. It's not like she skipped a planned element in her routine.

It would be easier for me to understand if someone simply stated Yuna's skating is not her/his cup of tea. But a lot of rationalization on Sochi results are bogus claims made in bad-faith or from ignorance.

Edit: Remember Johnny Weir in Vancouver? Many were moved by his performance and thought he had given it all. But that doesn't mean he was good enough for a medal.

Edit 2: I also strongly believe that those who think Yuna's skate was "tentative" are mistaken. It is clearly the double-standard effect that people have on Yuna. Yes, she no longer does frantic programs like Danse Macabre that's exciting at first sight. But if you go back and watch that program (2009 World version is considered the best), you can see rough edges around her skate. Those are all but gone now in "Send in the Clowns" and "Adios Nonino." Against Adelina, there is no comparison. Again, I suggest you watch the side-by-side.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8NIHBJBAqU

Try to watch them as if you never saw them skate before. Forget Yuna's past performances. See who looks more comfortable and who looks more cautious on the ice. Ignore Adelina's half-open mouth smile throughout the program not just because it has nothing to do with skating but it's also unattractive.

 

[Mrs. P]

Adelina's lines aren't perfect but they're good and better than a number of skaters IMO, particularly her leg lines (beautiful extension and flexibility). Her posture, while not perfect, isn't as deplorable as some people are insisting it is. I think she could stand to push her shoulders back and lift more from her chest, but she isn't horrific a la Miki Ando.

Some of the comments I've seen re: Adelina are leading me to believe that a lot of people are regurgitating stuff that they've seen somebody else write without really giving it any thought to whether or not it's true. Adelina has nice basic skating skills. Her edges are smooth and deeper than many, yet I keep seeing people say "oh she has shallow edges" or "she skates on top of the ice" which I don't agree with at all. She's able to generate a lot of speed with very few crossovers and maintains her speed with transitions which is something a number of the top skaters aren't able to do. Her ice coverage does need work; it's not terrible but it could be a lot better. No, some of her programs aren't that great (though I actually liked her Carmen SP) but she performs with a ton of energy and really sells her programs regardless of how sucky the choreography is.

It seems like people are forgetting she's only 17. I think Adelina has the ability to be graceful and more refined, but in order for that to happen she is going to have to get away from the choreographers she currently has. Her style of skating is very Russian (ie. kinda tacky...sorry) and I don't really see her departing from that anytime soon which I hate because I think Lori or someone else could do wonders with her (smooth her out, slow her down). I do sincerely hope she get some better programs and costumes in the future.

But overall I think she's a very good skater and not nearly as deficient as some people are making her out to be.

I think part of the problem, as you point out, is the programs actually basically HIDE her strengths. I do not know why the programs are choreographed this way -- but for whatever reason they mask her solid extension and flow. I actually prefer her junior version of her FS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeXXrxjNXtA

Yes, it's by no means a program for the ages, but you can see better her extension and flow. And you can see a bit of refinement. This program shows HINTS at why back then people thought she would be an Olympic champion in 2014.

I have seen her live (Skate America 2012) and I will say she skates big and with a lot of speed. Even with her struggles at that particular competition (those dang flips!), I can understand why judges score here well in PCS (though I definitely didn't agree with the inflated PCS she got in Sochi). But when I look back on her senior career so far, none of her PROGRAMS are particularly memorable to me and, sadly, I remember some of her atrocious costumes more than the programs themselves.

But there's no doubt her skating is really great! I may have not agree completely with the result, but all the criticism at her skating is uncalled for.

 

[usethis2]

But there's no doubt her skating is really great! I may have not agree completely with the result, but all the criticism at her skating is uncalled for.

Sorry to be blunt, I think people criticize her skating in the context of the marks she received by the Sochi judges. I think Adelina is a wonderful skater in her own light.