What exactly was Sotnikova's theme in her long program?

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

A program doesn't have to have a theme to have good choreography. Interpretation can be something that's abstract like Four Seasons by Lambiel and Chan, or literal like Kovtun's flamenco or Wagner's Black Swan. As much as a skater can have the right attitude to sell a performance or theme, poor choreography won't make up for it.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It's becoming hilarious. If Sot was judged fairly and did not win gold, (she would win bronze) she would get massive praise by now as a future leading lady in fs rather than this much harsh criticism.

So true. And I'm sure Sotnikova would have be thrilled with any medal for her skate and in her own mind knows that she wasn't perfect compared to Kim and Kostner and would be okay with a bronze. Obviously, she's happy with gold, but like Hanyu, I don't think she's thinking just because she won she earned her laurels as Olympic champion. She still has to win Worlds and show consistency, and Olympic gold is just the start of the resume for Hanyu and Sotnikova and not some crowning achievement, given the way they respectively won it.

Again, it's the Russian fed and judges who are to blame for Sotnikova's placement, not her. To say she will be ridiculed or unmotivated or never do well again is mean-spirited and not fair to her.

 

[ILuvYuna]

It seems that you know ballet very well so I will go with your argument. To me, Carolina's choreography has been generic to non-existent, especially in the first 2 1/2 minutes.

Please don't simply take people's word for it lol. Plisetskaya's Bolero de Ravel is iconic in the dance world and I don't think anyone with eyes or rational thought could deny that Carolina's program was evoking this performance (a beautiful 15 minute treat - urging everyone to click and see it for themselves http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc_DuM8h6wU )

I think that in "general", the things like "feeling the music", "overcome by emotion" etc. when it comes to figure skating, are just a bunch of bollocks.

To me "feeling the music" is a matter of artistry, but it also has a technical aspect to do with not falling behind the music or getting ahead of it (notice Adelina is ahead of the music towards the end when she starts her step sequence = she isn't feeling her way through the musical landscape, so to speak). To me, most of the skaters who really "feel the music" are ice dancers, because their scores rely heavily on their ability to stay in perfect timing and character with the music. It's a more rare thing for a skater to reach that level of artistic quality in singles skating, but when they do, I think they should be rewarded over the rest of the field

I have no idea about being "overcome by emotion" - usually that's what happens to the audience during a program, not the skater.

Skaters are athletes, most of all. The only thing they think about during the program is hitting the elements and hitting them cleanly. That they make their faces emote things to go with the music is a feat of practice

I danced for many years, and have friends who act, and unless it comes to you naturally, emoting/projecting emotion to an audience is a feat of practice (ie, a skill that you have to develop). However, the decision of what to emote and when, are choreographic choices that should be informed by the musical selection. Someone mentioned Lipnitskaya's "forlorn-ness" in another thread (lol!). Compare the flat emotional landscape of her program to Schindler's list with Ida Saki's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLx1Pj-gKDU

Ida gives us more than just "sad". She shows us the helplessenss of having your identity stripped away, the desperation, the ashes, the agony - all with movement - it's incredible. So yeah, I have to disagree with you that "feeling the music" is bollocks. It's tied in with choreography and the ability to convey the music, which are both part of the pcs score.

- it has nothing to do with what they are thinking at the moment, which is usually "hit that lutz, dammit." They aren't thinking about the pain of a father/son relationship, sexual tension, classical love, youthful exuberance, etc. That's just for the stories.

No, that is just for the artists, of which there are hardly any in figure skating, because like you said, they are atheletes and it's a sport. Sometimes I think they should choose someone from outside the skating world to be part of a regular judging panel. If they really want to reward the skaters who go above and beyond just making pretty motions to the music, then they should seek dancers/artists who can give an educated opinion on the artistic merit of what each skater is bringing to the ice (and give advice afterwards to the skaters, too).

As far as choreography and themes, I agree w/Kwanatic that most programs don't have a theme and the "choreography" is simply movement that fits the music. When the movement doesn't fit the music, however, it definitely gives the impression of being simply "constructed" as WeakAnkles was saying, and I don't think those types of programs should be scored as high in terms of choreography/composition and interpretation. Also, when you have a piece of music, such as Capriccioso, that itself is not composed around a concrete theme, it can be really helpful to simply create one, in order to make the interpretation easier, and make the composition of the program more coherent. I think the puppet or debutante ideas were great, but the more abstract idea of a skater's personal struggle with her choreographer? Sorry :sarcasm: It's not that I don't think that's a legitimate theme for a program, it's just that I don't see the choreography evoking that at all :confused2: Tbh, it seems more like a convenient and impromptu explanation of how the program came about, rather than a thoughtfully planned out interpretation of the musical selection.

Overall, I think Adelina's program was very much "constructed". It was overly busy in an effort to gather up points, but I believe packing in so many movements that were irrelevant to the music also contributed to it looking very clunky, unpolished, and labored (especially toward the end). That said, I think empty construction/bad choreography is separate from the skater's ability to perform it, and I think Adelina did sell the program for what it was worth.

Ultimately, if I had to judge pcs, I think I would give her 9's in performance/execution and transitions/linking (9.25, and 9.5 respectfully - I don't understand why they are relegated to 1/4 increments ), and lower on choreography/composition (8.25) & interpretation (8.5), because I felt there was an imbalance between the program itself and Adelina's performance of it. The program was beneath her ability, if you ask me. I feel she is capable of much more than what we saw at Sochi, but sadly, those marks are not giving her any incentive to grow artistically :disapp: ...

 

[WeakAnkles]

^ This. To the nth degree.

That's why I had to laugh when I read Tarasova's whole spiel about Sotnikova's choreography about the conflict between classical and modern dancing and reconciling that difference. I♥Yuna can probably back me up on this, but there are whole vocabularies of specific movements associated with classical and neoclassical dance, there are whole vocabularies of movement associated with modern dancing. There are clear and distinct differences. Nobody is ever going to mistake the work, for instance, of Paul Taylor with the work of Frederick Ashton. And frankly, I saw little to no difference in Sotnikova's choreography to back up Tarasova's extraordinary assertion. Frankly, I would LOVE to see a program that did. It could be a humdinger.

By the way, I'm the one who characterized Yulia's skating as "forlorn." Young love, Nazi atrocity, same difference. All forlorn.

And I agree that Sotnikova sold it to the best of her ability. Alas what she was selling was an empty (yet overstuffed) product.

ETA: thank you for posting Plisetskaya's Bolero de Ravel. Like a giant marvelous insect mating dance.

 

[BlackPack]

Adelina was always a medal contender. She was on many potential bronze medalist lists. People just didn't expect her to win gold. Yes, her ascent was abrupt and the judges clearly favored and overrated her on home ice. But she is a fine skater, like so many people have stated. Personally, I'm OK with the podium. I didn't think Yuna's performances in Sochi were the best in her career, but for Adelina it's surely her best so far. It's unfortunate that she has to deal with so much bashing at such a young age. If she joins Worlds 2015, the pressure will be enormous. The Russian Nationals will be hard enough to penetrate. I do feel bad for her.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Adelina was always a medal contender. She was on many potential bronze medalist lists. People just didn't expect her to win gold. Yes, her ascent was abrupt and the judges clearly favored and overrated her on home ice. But she is a fine skater, like so many people have stated. Personally, I'm OK with the podium. I didn't think Yuna's performances in Sochi were the best in her career, but for Adelina it's surely her best so far. It's unfortunate that she has to deal with so much bashing at such a young age. If she joins Worlds 2015, the pressure will be enormous. The Russian Nationals will be hard enough to penetrate. I do feel bad for her.

I think she is quite comfortable with her position. Adelina has the full support of the people who matter to her: the Russian fans, Tarasova, her coaches/choreographers, and the Russian federation. She is getting criticism directed at her through social media but it is largely South Korean fans. Most others who disagree with the result don't attack Adelina personally.

 

[Mathman]

I don't look for deeper meaning in the movements of the choreography...for anyone. If they go well with the music and are executed well, that's considered choreography to me. To that extent, there was a lot of choreography in Adelina's FS. In terms of telling a story or conveying a theme, the program didn't really go anywhere...but I feel that way about the majority of the programs I watch, including the good ones…

I agree. Just skate your program and leave it to the critics to search for themes. A triple Salchow done in the spirit of Juliet looks a lot like a triple Salchow done in the spirit of the Sugar Plum Fairy, IMHO. :yes:

 

[BlackPack]

I do agree that people can read too much into programs. A 4 minute program can't possibly be that deep. What a 4 minute program can do is explore a range of emotions in a story. It is an abstraction of the human experience at its best, and not many skaters have that ability. A good program executes the technical elements with appropriate choreography that expresses the music well. Some skaters and their teams make out their programs to be this elaborate saga story, but if they didn't mention anything, the interpretation is up to anyone's opinion. It veers into the territory of pretension when a vacant program tries to be all that.

 

[Nadya]

I agree. Just skate your program and leave it to the critics to search for themes. A triple Salchow done in the spirit of Juliet looks a lot like a triple Salchow done in the spirit of the Sugar Plum Fairy, IMHO. :yes:

Favorite comment of the day.

 

[kwanatic]

It veers into the territory of pretension when a vacant program tries to be all that.

ITA. Sometimes people write out these super-long descriptive novels of what a program means based on 2 minutes and 50 seconds of choreography. It floors me! I'm like, "How did you get all of that from that?" :scratch: I think it's very impressive that people see that much meaning behind it but at the same time I want to roll my eyes.

Like I said, I'm a lazy spectator. I don't need a story behind a program. Usually when someone is telling a story in figure skating it's more symbolic anyway and without someone explaining what this movement means and that movement means, it's all open for interpretation. What's worse is when someone tries to be literal with their choreography/interpretation because a lot of the time they just look silly! Think about all of the skaters who have "gone crazy" or "died" on the ice...

I look for the feeling, mood or emotion conveyed in the program rather than an actual story. It's easier for me to grasp a skater conveying joy rather than a skater conveying a moment in the story where the sun rises over the hill as they welcome back their lover who was thought to be dead but turned out to have been injured and living right across the hill for the last 10 years...or something complex and complicated like that. hwell:

 

[BlackPack]

ITA. Sometimes people write out these super-long descriptive novels of what a program means based on 2 minutes and 50 seconds of choreography. It floors me! I'm like, "How did you get all of that from that?" :scratch: I think it's very impressive that people see that much meaning behind it but at the same time I want to roll my eyes.

Like I said, I'm a lazy spectator. I don't need a story behind a program. Usually when someone is telling a story in figure skating it's more symbolic anyway and without someone explaining what this movement means and that movement means, it's all open for interpretation. What's worse is when someone tries to be literal with their choreography/interpretation because a lot of the time they just look silly! Think about all of the skaters who have "gone crazy" or "died" on the ice...

I look for the feeling, mood or emotion conveyed in the program rather than an actual story. It's easier for me to grasp a skater conveying joy rather than a skater conveying a moment in the story where the sun rises over the hill as they welcome back their lover who was thought to be dead but turned out to have been injured and living right across the hill for the last 10 years...or something complex and complicated like that. hwell:

My favorite "story" is Rahkamo and Kokko's La Strada. They were portraying something that was recognizable and understandable. But still, they weren't really telling a story; they were playing two characters. Bobrova and Soloviev's Man with a Harmonica is about a crazy guy who is redeemed by a nice girl, but she gets infected too and goes nuts. Personally, I don't think that program needed a "madness" angle to work well. The best death on ice still belongs to Bolero IMO. I remember when "Pasha" Grishuk said her Memorial program was a tribute to Sarajevo, then it was about the ups and downs of their career - just pretentious. If there's not enough choreography that qualifies as a story, then saying it is some epic literary work just kills the legitimacy of the program somewhat.

I agree that conveying a universal mood or emotion is the best way to actually tell a story or at least evoke something in the audience. Matt Savoie accomplished this as a poet on the ice in his 2005 SP.

 

[kwanatic]

My favorite "story" is Rahkamo and Kokko's La Strada. They were portraying something that was recognizable and understandable. But still, they weren't really telling a story; they were playing two characters. Bobrova and Soloviev's Man with a Harmonica is about a crazy guy who is redeemed by a nice girl, but she gets infected too and goes nuts. Personally, I don't think that program needed a "madness" angle to work well. The best death on ice still belongs to Bolero IMO. I remember when "Pasha" Grishuk said her Memorial program was a tribute to Sarajevo, then it was about the ups and downs of their career - just pretentious. If there's not enough choreography that qualifies as a story, then saying it is some epic literary work just kills the legitimacy of the program somewhat.

I agree that conveying a universal mood or emotion is the best way to actually tell a story or at least evoke something in the audience. Matt Savoie accomplished this as a poet on the ice in his 2005 SP.

See, I think it's easier for pairs/ice dancers to tell a story b/c there's someone on the ice to interact with. Certain ideas/actions are easier to convey when there's someone there.

It becomes a lot tougher to tell a story when there's only one person on the ice and nothing/no one to play off of or interact with.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I can see Adelina's theme playing out. At the end when she waves at me I feel like both sides have won and can live together in harmony.

 

[kwanatic]

I can see Adelina's theme playing out. At the end when she waves at me I feel like both sides have won and can live together in harmony.

 

[sk8in]

Music has a mood and a rhythm. It is the skaters job to sync their elements with both. Whether you want to call it a "story" a "theme" or a "feeling" doesn't matter. What skaters don't do is just line up next to each other and do triples until one drops.

^What I said.

 

[wootie]

So the feeling of Adelina's long program is pretty much "Woopeee....I skate like a Hummer across the frozen tundra, but it doesn't matter because the politics of these games dictate that as long as I stay on two feet for the majority of my rather ugly program, I win!!!!!"

That's the feeling and emotion that Adelina's long program generated.

Her short program was a bit better, although it makes no sense that a 3T-3T and mediocre choreography somehow beat two skaters with objectively better skating skills, flow across the ice and more difficult jumping passes.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Her short program was a bit better, although it makes no sense that a 3T-3T and mediocre choreography somehow beat two skaters with objectively better skating skills, flow across the ice and more difficult jumping passes.

Because spins count.

 

[WeakAnkles]

Music has a mood and a rhythm. It is the skaters job to sync their elements with both. Whether you want to call it a "story" a "theme" or a "feeling" doesn't matter. What skaters don't do is just line up next to each other and do triples until one drops.

Pretty much what I was saying. And that if you're going to start off with choreographic element it would be nice if it actually had something to do with the program as a whole. If you need to give a thesis statement of what the program is about, why bother? It just becomes an empty but overly busy mishmash. Full of sound and fury signifying nothing. Telling, not showing. All that stuff they teach you in any arts and craft class, dance class, writing class. Etc ad nauseum.

 

[wootie]

Pretty much what I was saying. And that if you're going to start off with choreographic element it would be nice if it actually had something to do with the program as a whole. If you need to give a thesis statement of what the program is about, why bother? It just becomes an empty but overly busy mishmash. Full of sound and fury signifying nothing. Telling, not showing. All that stuff they teach you in any arts and craft class, dance class, writing class. Etc ad nauseum.

Yup.

 

[pangtongfan]

jenaj,

To answer your question to me in the previous thread which I spend a long while typing out but which was deleted:

Chen- I believe she should have won the 1993 worlds, although Bonaly also has a strong case. She should clearly have beaten the gold medalist Baiul. I believe she could have possibly won the 1994 Olympics. I had her and Sato as the top 2 in the LP, and had it been Chen 1st and Sato 2nd, then she could have won the overall gold ahead of Kerrigan. Again she should have clearly beaten Baiul, and only had to beat Baiul in the LP to do that. I believe she should have won the 96 worlds over Kwan although it was close here too. At the very least she was robbed bigtime to finish any lower than 2nd at the 92 worlds (clearly beat Kerrigan), 93 worlds (clearly beat Baiul), 94 Olympics (clearly beat Baiul again). She also won her 98 Olympic bronze by only .1 over Maria Butyrskaya who muffed up her performance, landing only 3 clean triples and an absolutely terrified and stiff performance, 7 attempted triples, 2 triple lutzes, and beautiful artistry.

Kim- You already mentioned the 2014 Olympics (obvious) and 2011 Worlds (probably). However the other event I was thinking of was the 2008 worlds where had she won the L by the margin she probably should have would have won the event. Here is Sonia Bianchetti's views:

Yu-Na Kim won the free skating with a splendid performance. She opened with a gorgeous triple flip/triple toe-loop combination and landed a total of five triples, ending the program with a double Axel and a beautiful change foot combination spin. Her program was nearly clean. She only had a couple of minor errors: a poorly controlled landing on a triple Salchow and a singled planned triple Lutz. Her technique is pure and she moves beautifully on the ice. She is a joy to watch. In my opinion she was by far the best skater that night. Still, her marks in the components did not reflect this. Her total score was 58.56, just 0.4 ahead of Kostner and almost 1.03 less than Asada. Had she been marked correctly, although she was only fifth in the short program, she might have won the World title.

I agree with her. The scoring of Kostner at this particular event, and beating both Kim and Nakano, was outrageous even with Nakano's legitimate < .